Hypermusec
Member
- Jan 21, 2013
- 11
- 65
Warning I moan below. Skip this post if it grates you.
This is what usually happens. I think you misunderstand what I and others suggest. No one and I mean no one is saying let's throw players in. Just opportunites here and there. What is annoying though, is when you know your manager will give very very limited opportunities, when a League Cup game does come along you hope that the ONE academy player that dose come on may get more than 7 mins to prove themselves. As we know if we stand a chance of seeing them again, we are hoping for a very favourable FA Cup draw, and then even then, we may seem him for another 7mins. If I had any faith that Skipp might get 7mins a couple of more times this season in CM then I wouldn't care as much that he only got 7mins against West Ham. However it is likely we will not see him but for maybe 2 more minutes for the rest of the season. And no one will care, about the talents that we are wasting.
Ironically regarding Onomah and CCV they were treated with an incredible amount of caution in the first place and shown a general lack of trust, when they maybe should have had more faith shown in them to help with their confidence or if you don't trust them send them on loan. I didn't think you could get more cautious than 2mins every 5 games in an alien position, but here we are.
Thank you and I appreciate that but my negative tone, is because 4 years in and being told constantly to wait until next season nothing changes, and we continue to waste an incredible amount of talent. To think that someone who has been watching Skipp since he was 12, posting and sharing information with everyone on here, talking about his development and say how I believe he is good enough for the first team isn't pleased for him is madness. On the contrary I'm very very pleased for him as he has deserved it, it just I don't have your optimism that this is going to lead to anything meaningful. Posters love mentioning the number of debuts Poch has provided, again not that great when compared to similar clubs and yet nothing has come of them as we barely see them again. I don't understand how more people aren't negative. It's not like we are winning anything where we can say they just aren't good enough. Our squad isn't full of top quality or winners, yet better handling of one of the best generations of English talent, which we have contributed to, may have lead to a stronger squad, or more funds available to improve our squad. Yes Levy should probably release more funds but there is a load of money to be made within if we were smarter.
If we aren't making the best of our youth players, why can't it be raised. If Poch kept making bad team selections people would go on about it. I still back Poch and always will, it doesn't mean to say he hasn't handled the academy poorly. We have this conversation yearly, in fact I post a lot less now as it's as tedious for me as it no doubt is for you, and last season I was told to have faith, and what I apparently was waiting and meant to look forward to was 7 mins for Skipp, and a game for KWP eventually, after back to back PL MOTMs.
Maybe but then if that's the case you'd hope the manager might have a different plan or maybe consider using the loan system more as clearly something isn't working.
Ye as I said all PL clubs suck at this, but I'd argue Kirby is in the better position now. Regarding who the better player is, not many people were saying Kirby was back when he left. I said I think they were equal and have different strengths but many were saying they were happier to lose Kirby than TOB. If there is any difference it was marginal, but now one is on the bench for an u23 side that can't win, after being taken under the wing of the manager.
Thank you also. And I do get your post and see your point of view and agree to an extent. However, as always over the last 4 years it feels like there will always be an excuse why this player couldn't get on at this time. If there was a better attempt and bringing through players. Even other posters had mentioned bringing one academy player through a year should be possible. Maybe 2 games per season. or 3 15 mins cameos. I feel like even I'm lowering the bar now, but when that doesn't happen, I'm less patient at the reasons given.
At the end of the day the only the club suffers. We know we don't have an influx of money we know Levy won't release more money, but there are definitely ways in which we could be making money or improve our squad, but we will go in this cycle and not win anything and nothing will change. Surely we should start to do something different when we do the same thing with no different outcome.
Ironically as well with the homegrown rule and the way the squad is built, we are now going to have to look for English players who have managed to come through lower league clubs to fill out our squad. The stupid thing is we had just invested in our own players and given them chances we wouldn't have to go looking elsewhere for the Grealishes and Cooks. We are wasting money and paying a premium on players we have better than in the academy, which we can't spend on actual world class players and no one sees it as a problem. People see Cook come through at Leeds and Grealish come through at VIlla and conclude they must be better than what we have as they are playing football, when if they were in our academy they would be nowhere. It is such a ridiculous way of working and a poor way of managing our money and the squad. 8 times out of 10 if a Cat 1 wants a talent they will generally be able to poach them from other clubs, which means the lesser players are in the other clubs. These are the ones coming through which we are then quoted £30-40m to buy. The whole system is set up so the top clubs have the best players, and it is evidence that it works through club results and international results, and yet instead we end up trying to buy from the lesser clubs, then complain we don't have money to spend on top quality.
As I have said, some may notice, and some may not care but I post a lot less now, because it's very tedious getting into the same debate. I have my point of view others have theirs. I guess I have the problem of knowing and seeing the talent English football has to offer, I am doing my best to share as much of the information with everyone on this forum. The evidence is out there and yet seeing it go to waste, as they are 'not good enough' is so annoying. England got the furthest they've done in a World Cup in 20odd years with a squad where the senior players came from the first age group to win a Euro u17s (93s) of the new generation and supported by the even more talented age groups below, also filled with tournament winners. The players that have come through still aren't the best available as development from 19yos to PL football is incredibly poor and even with the lesser players we got to a semi. I believe England should win a World Cup and could do a France and have 5 first eleven of top quality players, but fans don't give a damn. The numbers coming through haven't even changed, but fans of each club continue to back and support the managers decisions to not bring through any players. We are literally seeing us spank France and Germany at youth level and then say they aren't good enough. Some fans are a least seeing it's not a meritocracy now but don't really care when chances aren't handed out. If Foden, Nelson, Sancho,Hudson-Odoi, Sessegnon et al were at our club you are kidding yourself if you believe they would have come through here. It would be the same old guff at that our squad is too good, we need to win trophies, if they are good enough they would get a chance, just believe. And when they inevitably don't make it, point to the 2 times they came on as a sub with 5 mins to go as a reason why they weren't good enough, or when they barged off the ball but a 27 year old unit as a young 17/19 year old in one of their 2 appearances and get told their too lightweight or not ready for first team football.
The only reason you guys know the players mentioned above are decent now is because 2 managed to force a move abroad really early in their career, one played in the Championship, and there is no doubt pressure on City to play Foden. Hudson-Odoi who everyone raved about and tore Bellerin a new one in preseason is getting the same treatment he would here, and I give it a year before people start claiming that maybe he wasn't quite as good as people claimed.
I don't doubt that I bring down this thread, as I said it's a major reason I have partially stopped contributing, but how anyone can expect to be singing praises after seeing a talent get on for 7mins is baffling. The complete mishandling of the talent from the 96s-99s is shocking and fortunately the 00s are being a bit more wary and starting to look abroad.
I know this discussion is ultimately pointless when England has bar none the best talents in the world yet fans of each club will say they are not good enough for their own clubs. How can I debate that?
We(Spurs) have had the best generation of talent we've ever seen at the club, we've had ex pros talk about how they are being wasted, we had a coach that said 2 of the best players he has ever coached were at Spurs. I've quoted various people from coaches to Directors that have said that the English age groups between 01-99 are the best they have ever seen in football, and still my and others frustration is met with bemusement and over-reaction. I once said we might as well pack in our academy and was told I was being stupid. But seriously, all this talent, and one player comes through in 4/5 years, and we're hardly making money off them as they get crap loans. What is the point? How few players need to come through over how many years, before fans go, 'maybe this is bad'. If you're bar on if they're good enough is whether the manager is giving them a chance or not, in the last 4/5 years the level of players we are producing is apparently no better than the Lee Barnard years, as the output has essentially been the same. Fans have gotten to the point where 7mins is seen as a great advert for the academy and are claiming that fans have an agenda for pointing out an incredibly poor return during England's golden age. The output is essentially the same for academies, in fact it is probably worse now than it was when the academies were actually crap. When they weren't producing players like we are now and yet people seem pleased with the progress. I don't even really know who I'm annoyed at most. I can't blame the fans for wanting to win, or just believing in the manager as they aren't privy to the talents about. I get we can't see them in training and I get why no one would just trust the judgement of a couple of fans that watch some u18s matches. I don't know whose responsility it is to help bring these kids through, so much investment has gone into it maybe the Chairman should be a bit more forceful but when certain clubs are winning trophies why would the charimen care, I thought ours would push it more, but then why would a manager risk playing academy players, when their job is on the line. The Premier League and FA can't do much I doubt, tehy try and chnage the rules by forcing more homegrown players on the bench but he manager controls when the come on. Really it's the players that cna control their own destiny and as we are seeing forcing themselves out of this ridiculous system. And I appreciate Soutgate who si making his decision based on the talent/ability of players he knows rather than the old method of choosing players with expereinces. What is the point in choosing a player who has played 30 games in the season if ultimately their ceiling/ability is less than the young player who is strugglign to come through in top 6 club. I guess as everyone says to me, Southgate has seen these kids in training and worked with them, and while some are against it or sceptical he seems to be doing a decent job of choosing the talent that he has worked with.
Defintely not imo. The biggest barrier to youth development is inexperience. Managers fear how a young player might handle playing in front of crowds, in pressure situations or against men. Dier and Alli had played numerous games in league football. The pressure was off, we knew we were getting players that could cope.
Sancho had played zero first team minutes he would have been a lot more on the Onomah/KPW level. Even Foyth had made 7 first team appearances and he struggles to get games. I don't know how hand on heart anyone can believe Sancho would be in the position he is now if he came here. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Before, we were linked with him, not many people had seen him. They may have heard about him due to the Euros, but not everyone watched that. I've been following him for the last 2/3 years, he is a special talent but there are and other been others, who didn't manage to get themselves abroad and rotted in England. If he had stayed at City and not played there would be no hype over him. If he had come here, I'd like to know what you've seen in the last 4/5 years that suggests that a completely untested Sancho would have been selected ahead of Eriksen, Alli, Son, Moura,Lamela or even Sissoko.
For perspective and to show you how hindsight affects everything. I have been raving about TOB for ages, easily one of the best players I had seen at u16s at below. One coach said he's the best player he's ever coached along with Kirby. At u16/17 level TOB was I believe regarded as England's best CM at that age group. And I think he was. In that age group he was one of the most important players, in a team that had Sancho, Foden, Gomes, CHO. All the games he played in we cruised. He got KO'd in the semi, and England began to look disjointed. The game against Spain though we should have won, if we kept the ball in the last 5 mins again we looked so poor and ended up losing without him. He was crucial to that team. With him in that team we won the World Cup. Everyone had high hopes for him, but he was kept from playing u18 football and trained with the first team. Maybe had a couple of injures but since coming back from that great opportunity looking at him now everyone thinks he's rubbish and nowhere near good enough. If he had left and gone abroad he would be looked at differently. And that's the point. The development, handling and lack of trust in them means that they get stifled and then everyone concludes they were never that good in the first place. Could easily have happened to Sancho and would have if he was here as well. At the conclusion of the Euro u17s. TOB stayed and Sancho left, they were relative to their positions on a similar footing abilitywise (I'm trying to remember England youth watchers views at that time @JRSG may be able to confirm or not) yet their development curve from there has been drastically different . 95% of people wouldn't have seen them properly at 16/17 would just assume that Sancho was a lot better but I'd argue that isn't true, relative to what they did. Though Sancho is an incredible talent. The main difference is how they were then developed, one has gone up while the other has gone down. The fact Sancho's in blistering form exacerbates the difference, but if it they were reversed, Sancho would be training with our first team and I imagine TOB might be on Dortmund's bench at this point.
I think we are in fact in, more or less, full agreement ?. I dont feel you bring this thread down, I just feel that there is a very negative undercurrent in our club/fanbase nowadays. Obviously because of the stadium and the summer transfer window, but also because of things like this which have been frustrating many fans for a while. The questions asked are relevant and my intention wasnt to dig you out in any way, but I just feel we need to try to stay calm amidst the frustration. I see a lot of quality posters are losing it a bit right now over the current situation and I guess I’m just trying to find find the middle way here (that’s usually where the truth lies). Focusing on single matches like this against west ham, there might be arguments for not blooding the kids, however, I agree that we are not utilizing the academy enough overall.
Personally I believe a transfer strategy where you combine buying the players from outside and recruiting players from inside the club is vital for club like us. We have limited funds and if we are to compete with the rest it’s wiser to spend our money on a couple of players rather than spread it out on five. Logic says you should be able to get better players in this way. Your arguments regards the HG quota are spot on - I 100% agree. I guess if you look at man utd under SAF, you will find similar approach. Of course, they had more funds than most other clubs, but he usually brought in a couple of quality players every summer and wasnt afraid to spend some money on them. As for rotation, he usually relied on players like Evans, Brown, fletcher, o’shea etc. Nothing exceptional perhaps, but fully comitted players he could trust to do a job. Many miss the point on how important these guys were. Anyway, I think you understand what I mean and we are in agreement ?
The only thing I want to point out about MP and the youngsters is a little something I’ve noticed. When Harry Kane broke through I remember noticing his physical transformation (most fans did). Similar happened before Winks broke through and it was mentioned in an interview that he added x amount of lbs in muscle over the summer. My point is that it seems to me (and I might be wrong) that poch perhaps doesnt fully trust a player before they are robust enough to handle the physical demands of the game. Onomah has often struck me as a bit gangly and not fully developed yet. Kwp might still have a bit of growing and physical work to do. Skipp seems to be trusted and is getting closer to the 1st team (similar to winks - hopefully!) and if I’m not mistaken he is quite physically developed for his age? I dont know if this is what MP is thinking, but the physical transformation of both kane and winks seemed very relevant to their introduction and establishment in the team in my opinion.
Let’s hope we see more youngsters getting a chance in the near future! ?
