The Spurs Youth Thread - 2018/19

[spud]

No its toxic to suggest that players who dont make it, is because they dont have the "right attitude", yet there is no proof of this and if there is could someone direct me towards it?

When clearly in certain cases they dont suit his system at all. Players like Onomah and Veljkovic aren't what Poch looks for in CM, he likes people who athletic in those CM positions rather than a sitting DM who tends to read the game or a flair type CM who looks to control the tempo

To be fair, there is very rarely any 'proof' of why some players make it and others don't. I would simply maintain that - as in all things - a significant contributory factor is the 'attitude' of the player in question. With attitude meant in a specific sense as I tried to explain in a post a few days back.

That doesn't mean that there aren't other contributory factors, and whether a player ticks the boxes of a particular coach - or entire coaching staff - is certainly one of them. It's too simplistic to attribute ultimate success or failure to any single thing, but in my opinion if your approach isn't right then you're fighting an uphill battle.

 

[Luka Van der Bale]

Is there any chance Austin could be on the move, be it on loan or permanently? Even if Whiteman is going to be permanently with the first team as third keeper, I don’t see why were considering signing Smith when we already have Austin, De Bie and Oluwayemi as keepers for the u23s.

Also seemed slightly strange to take De Bie on tour over him judging by previous pecking order. Appreciate De Bie is younger though, so potentially seen as having higher potential.

 

[coys200]

Just watched Tanganga highlights. He was so aggressive in the tackle really on the front foot bit like Sanchez. And hit some lovely crisp passes. Honestly didn’t realise he was this good.

 

[coys200]

 

[glospur]

No its toxic to suggest that players who dont make it, is because they dont have the "right attitude", yet there is no proof of this and if there is could someone direct me towards it?

Every player has to be taken on a case by case basis. It's silly making blanket assumptions for why players don't make it.

However, in Edwards' case, there is proof, is there not?

When clearly in certain cases they dont suit his system at all. Players like Onomah and Veljkovic aren't what Poch looks for in CM, he likes people who athletic in those CM positions rather than a sitting DM who tends to read the game or a flair type CM who looks to control the tempo

Rubbish. Winks and Skipp don't fit that profile, in fact they fit the exact profile of the player that you claim he doesn't like, and nor does our current record signing (although he is athletic, that's just one of his attributes).

On those two players you mentioned and the overall discussion, it's probably an Occam's razor situation. People are looking for excuses because they like certain players at youth level, however when it's time to step up they simply aren't good enough.

 

[isaac94]

This is the former Southend keeper on trial, looks decent, might be a 3rd choice option

 

[Locotoro]

@beats1
I'm not sure that anyone could argue Onomah doesn't fit the profile of a Pochettino central midfielder.

He's strong, athletic, fast, has the great technical ability, can drive forward with the ball. In his case, given he has the appropriate standard of ability, there are surely only two reasons he's not made it with Spurs.
1) Mental Toughness; he's either not applied himself in-game time by showing focus, determination, concentration, work rate, aggression and discipline for the entirety of 90 mins to the required standard, or;
2) he's pissed off someone important.

Either way both of those are mental qualities which relate to "attitude". The attitude to play the game with mental toughness and the attitude to deal with his teammates and management team with respect. I agree that it's not always about having an attitude problem but in most cases, it is about having the right attitude.

 

[CoopzUK]

I don't like this toxic notion that if you dont have the right attitude you won't get a chance.

Can people show me proof of this? Not really.

If you ran your own business (you may already do so), would you employ someone purely on their credentials? Would their attitude not be taken into consideration? Of course it would.

Secondly, providing conclusive proof of Edwards poor attitude is always difficult, I agree. However, there are many pages of chat in this very thread, multiple articles and blog posts online talking about his lack of team spirit, poor work ethic and lethargic attitude towards training. A simply Google search brings up several pieces about this.

No, none of this is conclusive. But there is no smoke without fire, and there are too many people saying this about him not to have some truth about it.

Spurs should always have the ambition to play the very best players. Not just technically, but mentally too. Unfortunately, it appears Edwards doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[danielneeds]

I don't like this toxic notion that if you dont have the right attitude you won't get a chance

Can people show me proof of this? Not really.

Even though its abundantly clear Poch favours a certain of player.

Year after year, we have seen poch give players a chance during preseason that doesn't mean things are going well. Often this is because we dont have the squad numbers like at the moment Kane is our only real first team striker

I'll give you another example which has always stuck with me and I think is a similar thinking to Poch and McDermott. I'll always remember reading Sir Ranulph Fiennes' autobiography where he talked about what he looks for when putting together his teams for expeditions to the poles.

He said, he never looked for people with the longest CV or the best trekking numbers in sub-zero conditions, rather first and foremost his consideration when in the training camps was who was first in in the mornings? Who was going out of their way to help other people training? Who was the most enthusiastic in the planning meetings? When the chips were down and you were in life-threatening conditions,. he said he wanted people who were as absolutely committed to the mission as he was because they were the ones who'd help him through it.

I think, although PL football is not life or death, the stakes are high, and a similar outlook to judging and managing people is what the best coaches have.

 

[IGSpur]

@beats1 I'm not sure that anyone one could argue Onomah doesn't fit the profile of a Pochettino central midfielder.

His strong, athletic, fast, has great technical ability, can drive forward with the ball. In his case, giving he has the ability, there are surely only two reasons he he would not make it it with Spurs.
1) he doesn't have have the mental toughness at this moment in time I'm I'm to focus and apply himself for 90 minutes it's of a senior level game . Or
2) he is performing poorly in training

Either way both of those are mental qualities, so we can say he's not developed that side of his game sufficiently up to now.

I agree that it's not always about having an attitude problem but in most cases it is about having the right attitude (in game or in training)

To poke my head in here a bit I think they type he means is that Onomah, if we're comparing like for like, is similar to Maghoma. They are players that run with the ball, beat a man (with skill), and try to create chances, those are their strengths, trying to make things happen with risk taking. Going forward from deep positions. . What they lack, is maybe consistency which comes from risk takers and possibly an extremely high work rate. They generally won't just recycle possession and run about the field, and may not be the most aware defensively as they are/were intially attacking players who's first instinct is to go forward.It's why Madueke left as he said himself he didn't see opportuntiy for him here. His type of player don't come through and stay stuck in u23s and he will have seen that. It's also why England are still missing a massive trick. All these reports, articles, opinions from coaches, former players, directors about Englands talent, isn't due to their defensive ability everyone is fawning over Englnad producing more gifted, talented and technically better attacking players than any other country. And as before attacking players take risks, which is why bringing them through here is a big no no. That's why clubs are picking up Sancho, Nelson, Hudson-Odoi, Lookman, Barry, Rogers, why they were looking at Edwards before he signed his contract, Madueke, Bennetts, as they know these players have a lot of talent and would stand a good chance in coming through with them and earning them a lot of money. It's not guaranteed but it's better than staying here.

Going back to Poch and types. Skipp, Winks and Marsh all possess three of the four traits that I think Poch looks for, whereas Onomah, Maghoma and as beasts mentioned earlier I'd say Veljkovic and Carroll possess maybe one or two. Work-rate, reliability, mobility and strength. I think work-rate can include the mental aspects as in the forethought to get about and work hard not necessarily just the fitness aspect.

Skipp- has all of them
Winks - three of them, he's getting stronger in the tackle
Marsh - has all of them could be more mobile
Bowden and White are interesting - if White more, than Bowden is told to reign in his risky passing he will have 3 of the characteristics, but then it takes away from what makes him so eye catching. Ultimately I don't really think he will make it here as a result, but he could easily do what he needs to to get in the team become a bit of a sideways passer, then possibly bring it back.
Bowden, just really needs to improve his work-rate a bit and strength but if he keep possession well he will stand a chance as our Carrick type. But I don't think think he has the high work-rate in him, which will work against him.

What these offer going forward isn't their main strength though; they then possess other skills around these main traits which eventually will set them apart as to how good they will be if they got chances. Skipp is better defensively and more cavalier and risky going forward than Winks. White and Bowden are better passers than Winks and Skipp. I think, White can be particularly creative and both are definitely better long passers than Winks and Skipp, though Bowden is probably worse in defense than Winks and Skipp. White is better in this respect which works to his advantage, though now I think of it I wouldn't consider him as mobile as W and S, though he can get about, I've seen him put in some reducers in DM which surprised me. Marsh doesn't really offer anything going forward at all, and he is OK defensively.

Going back to Carroll and Veljkovic two other top quality CMs I've seen. Carroll wasn't very mobile or strong or reliable. He was an excellent creative passer, I think the best I've still seen with White and MV probably joint second best in the DLP role. But once he was in and out of the team and clearly not trusted he stopped that and just became a bit of sideways safe passer to keep his position. Essentially becoming reliable and with his main attribute out the game, the risk taking, plus not having strength or mobility he wasn't going to really going to be a Poch fav.

MV, wasn't very mobile, lacked the work-rate and also his passing was what made him an excellent, which was risky. But ultimately he lacked in the first two hence he wasnt going to get his chance, and we read he wasn't a Poch type.

And as I type I've remembered the other CM who seems to be in Poch's good book. Amos, he possesses all 4 of the characteristics mentioned above, having spent some time in defense. He was actually a very good AM at u16 level but couldn't get in ahead of Onomah, Oduwa or Miller in the attacking roles as he wasn't at their level but he was decent. He then got pushed back worked on the other skills and now as he still has some of his natural attacking instincts while still not as good as Maghoma or Onomah makes him a decent option and candidate in that area.

Finally again as I type, the other player fancied and taken on tour by Poch which had one fan on twitter apparently claiming he was more or a prospect than CCV,Edwards and Onomah by virtue of being taken on the tour was Walkes. Again possessed all of the main characteristics in abundance. The good honest type, like Marsh but bigger and quicker.

These are the Poch types, imo. Attacking ability is an afterthought and are only bonuses for the players he brings through. If you have them then even better but you don't require them to get a chance or for him to at least consider and take you on tour or stick you on a bench. Oh and I just remembered Lesniak as well as Ryan Mason. Though Mason had other qualities he had at least 3 of the base 4.

That is why I believe he is risk averse and ultimately players that are difference makers won't come through here. I've come to terms with it, and I'm not too bothered, if we bring through our own CMs and they're of the good to top quality level like Winks and Skipp we're ultimately saving/making money, it's just a shame we are still shelling talent and outstanding talent elsewhere.

Other countries or leagues don't require that, and tbf to Poch I think it's a league wide thing. Players outside of that mould aren't really brought through but are happened upon due to incredibly fortunate circumstances. That's why your McTominays, Longstaffs and Rices come through and praise heaped upon them when they are ultimately average players. Maybe Rice has a little more about him, but I'd bet my house, were Skipp given a proper chance he'd show himself to be a better player than Rice and I don't think Rice is as good as Winks now.

 

[coys200]

I’m still slightly shocked by Skipp Parrott Tanganga performances. Skipp and Parrott I can get my head round and if they keep that level up then surely they are serious squad options. Tanganga is the one that’s really thrown he was just so good, it’s left me a bit bemused. I’m almost putting it down to some freakish performance he can’t repeat but I’d be delighted if he did.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Looks to have become more confident as the game progressed, playing some very impressive passes (having started out by giving it to Toby each time). I wonder if he’s ready for senior minutes, looks physically ready.

 

[IGSpur]

I’m still slightly shocked by Skipp Parrott Tanganga performances. Skipp and Parrott I can get my head round and if they keep that level up then surely they are serious squad options. Tanganga is the one that’s really thrown he was just so good, it’s left me a bit bemused. I’m almost putting it down to some freakish performance he can’t repeat but I’d be delighted if he did.

Tanganga has always been highly rated amongst youth watchers, many have raved about him in the past. He is very eye catching, but as has already been said in here, he once he went into the u23 purgatory he stopped developing. Once you stop developing and are stagnating at one level, it doesn't matter how good you are your performance and motivation will drop. So that along with the poor management of Burnett would have made him look average. Suddenly you bump him up a level and he looks better than he ever has in the last year. It's a shame he was behind Dinzeyi in previous preseasons for some reason, but he has now benefited, as BG said, off Eyoma being injured.

We have a load of CBs that are talented but again they're a hard position to bring through like keeper. CBs are the last line of outfield players before the keeper so they need to be trusted and are very risky players to try out. As good as he played, IMO it won't go further than preseason realistically. At most it might help him catch the eyes of potential suitors and someone may consider buying him or he may get a decent loan to move to a good club in the future.

There is a lot of talent still about, don't judge them off some dodgy u23s matches.Remember the 99-01s are the age groups that German Sporting Director said England have the most talent we had 5 players in the 99 age group that doesn't include Roles, we had 7 players feature in the most talented 00 age group, and 5, I think, players in the 01 age group. Only 4 of them have left the club so most of these players are still around, they have just stagnated and not been supported with their development. It's why there are only about 4 left playing for England as they've been overtaken by clubs that have developed those better or they've left. it's not too late to rescue those internationals left. It shouldn't be a surprise to see them look the part but can understand why it is.

 

[Montalbano]

To poke my head in here a bit I think they type he means is that Onomah, if we're comparing like for like, is similar to Maghoma. They are players that run with the ball, beat a man (with skill), and try to create chances, those are their strengths, trying to make things happen with risk taking. Going forward from deep positions. . What they lack, is maybe consistency which comes from risk takers and possibly an extremely high work rate. They generally won't just recycle possession and run about the field, and may not be the most aware defensively as they are/were intially attacking players who's first instinct is to go forward.It's why Madueke left as he said himself he didn't see opportuntiy for him here. His type of player don't come through and stay stuck in u23s and he will have seen that. It's also why England are still missing a massive trick. All these reports, articles, opinions from coaches, former players, directors about Englands talent, isn't due to their defensive ability everyone is fawning over Englnad producing more gifted, talented and technically better attacking players than any other country. And as before attacking players take risks, which is why bringing them through here is a big no no. That's why clubs are picking up Sancho, Nelson, Hudson-Odoi, Lookman, Barry, Rogers, why they were looking at Edwards before he signed his contract, Madueke, Bennetts, as they know these players have a lot of talent and would stand a good chance in coming through with them and earning them a lot of money. It's not guaranteed but it's better than staying here.

Going back to Poch and types. Skipp, Winks and Marsh all possess three of the four traits that I think Poch looks for, whereas Onomah, Maghoma and as beasts mentioned earlier I'd say Veljkovic and Carroll possess maybe one or two. Work-rate, reliability, mobility and strength. I think work-rate can include the mental aspects as in the forethought to get about and work hard not necessarily just the fitness aspect.

Skipp- has all of them
Winks - three of them, he's getting stronger in the tackle
Marsh - has all of them could be more mobile
Bowden and White are interesting - if White more, than Bowden is told to reign in his risky passing he will have 3 of the characteristics, but then it takes away from what makes him so eye catching. Ultimately I don't really think he will make it here as a result, but he could easily do what he needs to to get in the team become a bit of a sideways passer, then possibly bring it back.
Bowden, just really needs to improve his work-rate a bit and strength but if he keep possession well he will stand a chance as our Carrick type. But I don't think think he has the high work-rate in him, which will work against him.

What these offer going forward isn't their main strength though; they then possess other skills around these main traits which eventually will set them apart as to how good they will be if they got chances. Skipp is better defensively and more cavalier and risky going forward than Winks. White and Bowden are better passers than Winks and Skipp. I think, White can be particularly creative and both are definitely better long passers than Winks and Skipp, though Bowden is probably worse in defense than Winks and Skipp. White is better in this respect which works to his advantage, though now I think of it I wouldn't consider him as mobile as W and S, though he can get about, I've seen him put in some reducers in DM which surprised me. Marsh doesn't really offer anything going forward at all, and he is OK defensively.

Going back to Carroll and Veljkovic two other top quality CMs I've seen. Carroll wasn't very mobile or strong or reliable. He was an excellent creative passer, I think the best I've still seen with White and MV probably joint second best in the DLP role. But once he was in and out of the team and clearly not trusted he stopped that and just became a bit of sideways safe passer to keep his position. Essentially becoming reliable and with his main attribute out the game, the risk taking, plus not having strength or mobility he wasn't going to really going to be a Poch fav.

MV, wasn't very mobile, lacked the work-rate and also his passing was what made him an excellent, which was risky. But ultimately he lacked in the first two hence he wasnt going to get his chance, and we read he wasn't a Poch type.

And as I type I've remembered the other CM who seems to be in Poch's good book. Amos, he possesses all 4 of the characteristics mentioned above, having spent some time in defense. He was actually a very good AM at u16 level but couldn't get in ahead of Onomah, Oduwa or Miller in the attacking roles as he wasn't at their level but he was decent. He then got pushed back worked on the other skills and now as he still has some of his natural attacking instincts while still not as good as Maghoma or Onomah makes him a decent option and candidate in that area.

Finally again as I type, the other player fancied and taken on tour by Poch which had one fan on twitter apparently claiming he was more or a prospect than CCV,Edwards and Onomah by virtue of being taken on the tour was Walkes. Again possessed all of the main characteristics in abundance. The good honest type, like Marsh but bigger and quicker.

These are the Poch types, imo. Attacking ability is an afterthought and are only bonuses for the players he brings through. If you have them then even better but you don't require them to get a chance or for him to at least consider and take you on tour or stick you on a bench. Oh and I just remembered Lesniak as well as Ryan Mason. Though Mason had other qualities he had at least 3 of the base 4.

That is why I believe he is risk averse and ultimately players that are difference makers won't come through here. I've come to terms with it, and I'm not too bothered, if we bring through our own CMs and they're of the good to top quality level like Winks and Skipp we're ultimately saving/making money, it's just a shame we are still shelling talent and outstanding talent elsewhere.

Other countries or leagues don't require that, and tbf to Poch I think it's a league wide thing. Players outside of that mould aren't really brought through but are happened upon due to incredibly fortunate circumstances. That's why your McTominays, Longstaffs and Rices come through and praise heaped upon them when they are ultimately average players. Maybe Rice has a little more about him, but I'd bet my house, were Skipp given a proper chance he'd show himself to be a better player than Rice and I don't think Rice is as good as Winks now.

First off, really interesting and informational post. Thanks for that IG.

Do you think a potential switch in formation from a double pivot to a three man midfield could increase the likelihood of these "creative/flair midfielders" getting a chance? Especially considering our likely midfield signings this window (i.e. Ndombele, Lo Celso, etc.) are all of this type.

 

[Pistols At Dawn]

I’m still slightly shocked by Skipp Parrott Tanganga performances.

I was giddy after the friendly due mainly to Tanganga's performance, which came as a blind wallop. But after reading @IGSpur's post about youth CBs not progressing past friendlies, I'm torn. Honestly, if we bring along Skipp, (the amazing) Parrott, and Tanganga, it even changes my transfer hopes.

Now with Tanguay on board, the main objectives would be Lo Celso and Sessegnon. Which leaves a WEALTH of talent at nearly every position (although I'm not convinced about our first choice at RB). Check out this insane 25-man squad:

STRIKERS
Kane, Parrott, Llorente

AMs
Lucas, Dele, Eriksen, Lo Celso, Lamela, Son

DMs
Tanguay, Moose, Winsky, Skipp, (Dier)

CBs
Vert, Toby, Davinson, Tanganga, (Dier)

LBs
Sessegnon, Davies

RBs
Foyth, KWP

GK
Lloris, Gazza, Whiteman

I guess it's just a shame I don't run the Club.

 

[coys200]

I knew Tanganga was highly rated but it had gone very quiet on him last year. If he performs like that in the next 3 games he might be hard to ignore. If Pochettino sees Foyth as a RB option there may be a possibility KWP gets loaned opening up a 4th CB spot to be shared Foyth/ Tanganga. Otherwise he should definitely get a loan.

 

[CoopzUK]

It's a romantic notion to see so many academy players perform so well in preseason that you want them to perform well in the PL, dreaming of a Man United "Class of 96" style era for Spurs.

We would all dearly love it to happen, but ultimately as fans the closest we will get will be Football Manager lol. I wholeheartedly trust Poch in whatever his plans are! If he can keep cherry picking the type of players we wants/needs from our youth set up, do it. It's working, slowly but surely.

If anyone is to step up, it's Parrott. The arrival of NDombele will be a small set back for Skipp, but the departure of Llorente and Janssen is a huge, huge opportunity for Parrott to grab with both hands. Start training like Kane, taking work ethic from Cristiano Ronaldo, he could be a breakout star this season.

Tanganga definitely needs a loan to experience mens football. League 1, maybe low end Championship would be a good start for him. Don't want him to end up being overwhelmed.

 

[Anuth]

Highlight

Spurs XI vs Dulwich Hamlet

 

[therhinospeaks]

Some great posts and insights on here this week. My two pennies worth on Tanganga.... He played 1 half against a side that barely pressed. He did admirably, showed good intent and displayed progressive, positive passing but let's just tone it down a notch. He won't get near the first team and now is a year late in getting a loan. Hopefully those 45 minutes will peak the interest of a few league 1 sides.

 

[spurs9]

To poke my head in here a bit I think they type he means is that Onomah, if we're comparing like for like, is similar to Maghoma. They are players that run with the ball, beat a man (with skill), and try to create chances, those are their strengths, trying to make things happen with risk taking. Going forward from deep positions. . What they lack, is maybe consistency which comes from risk takers and possibly an extremely high work rate. They generally won't just recycle possession and run about the field, and may not be the most aware defensively as they are/were intially attacking players who's first instinct is to go forward.It's why Madueke left as he said himself he didn't see opportuntiy for him here. His type of player don't come through and stay stuck in u23s and he will have seen that. It's also why England are still missing a massive trick. All these reports, articles, opinions from coaches, former players, directors about Englands talent, isn't due to their defensive ability everyone is fawning over Englnad producing more gifted, talented and technically better attacking players than any other country. And as before attacking players take risks, which is why bringing them through here is a big no no. That's why clubs are picking up Sancho, Nelson, Hudson-Odoi, Lookman, Barry, Rogers, why they were looking at Edwards before he signed his contract, Madueke, Bennetts, as they know these players have a lot of talent and would stand a good chance in coming through with them and earning them a lot of money. It's not guaranteed but it's better than staying here.

Going back to Poch and types. Skipp, Winks and Marsh all possess three of the four traits that I think Poch looks for, whereas Onomah, Maghoma and as beasts mentioned earlier I'd say Veljkovic and Carroll possess maybe one or two. Work-rate, reliability, mobility and strength. I think work-rate can include the mental aspects as in the forethought to get about and work hard not necessarily just the fitness aspect.

Skipp- has all of them
Winks - three of them, he's getting stronger in the tackle
Marsh - has all of them could be more mobile
Bowden and White are interesting - if White more, than Bowden is told to reign in his risky passing he will have 3 of the characteristics, but then it takes away from what makes him so eye catching. Ultimately I don't really think he will make it here as a result, but he could easily do what he needs to to get in the team become a bit of a sideways passer, then possibly bring it back.
Bowden, just really needs to improve his work-rate a bit and strength but if he keep possession well he will stand a chance as our Carrick type. But I don't think think he has the high work-rate in him, which will work against him.

What these offer going forward isn't their main strength though; they then possess other skills around these main traits which eventually will set them apart as to how good they will be if they got chances. Skipp is better defensively and more cavalier and risky going forward than Winks. White and Bowden are better passers than Winks and Skipp. I think, White can be particularly creative and both are definitely better long passers than Winks and Skipp, though Bowden is probably worse in defense than Winks and Skipp. White is better in this respect which works to his advantage, though now I think of it I wouldn't consider him as mobile as W and S, though he can get about, I've seen him put in some reducers in DM which surprised me. Marsh doesn't really offer anything going forward at all, and he is OK defensively.

Going back to Carroll and Veljkovic two other top quality CMs I've seen. Carroll wasn't very mobile or strong or reliable. He was an excellent creative passer, I think the best I've still seen with White and MV probably joint second best in the DLP role. But once he was in and out of the team and clearly not trusted he stopped that and just became a bit of sideways safe passer to keep his position. Essentially becoming reliable and with his main attribute out the game, the risk taking, plus not having strength or mobility he wasn't going to really going to be a Poch fav.

MV, wasn't very mobile, lacked the work-rate and also his passing was what made him an excellent, which was risky. But ultimately he lacked in the first two hence he wasnt going to get his chance, and we read he wasn't a Poch type.

And as I type I've remembered the other CM who seems to be in Poch's good book. Amos, he possesses all 4 of the characteristics mentioned above, having spent some time in defense. He was actually a very good AM at u16 level but couldn't get in ahead of Onomah, Oduwa or Miller in the attacking roles as he wasn't at their level but he was decent. He then got pushed back worked on the other skills and now as he still has some of his natural attacking instincts while still not as good as Maghoma or Onomah makes him a decent option and candidate in that area.

Finally again as I type, the other player fancied and taken on tour by Poch which had one fan on twitter apparently claiming he was more or a prospect than CCV,Edwards and Onomah by virtue of being taken on the tour was Walkes. Again possessed all of the main characteristics in abundance. The good honest type, like Marsh but bigger and quicker.

These are the Poch types, imo. Attacking ability is an afterthought and are only bonuses for the players he brings through. If you have them then even better but you don't require them to get a chance or for him to at least consider and take you on tour or stick you on a bench. Oh and I just remembered Lesniak as well as Ryan Mason. Though Mason had other qualities he had at least 3 of the base 4.

That is why I believe he is risk averse and ultimately players that are difference makers won't come through here. I've come to terms with it, and I'm not too bothered, if we bring through our own CMs and they're of the good to top quality level like Winks and Skipp we're ultimately saving/making money, it's just a shame we are still shelling talent and outstanding talent elsewhere.

Other countries or leagues don't require that, and tbf to Poch I think it's a league wide thing. Players outside of that mould aren't really brought through but are happened upon due to incredibly fortunate circumstances. That's why your McTominays, Longstaffs and Rices come through and praise heaped upon them when they are ultimately average players. Maybe Rice has a little more about him, but I'd bet my house, were Skipp given a proper chance he'd show himself to be a better player than Rice and I don't think Rice is as good as Winks now.

Whilst I disagree with what you're saying, still a great post mate.

I think this whole "Poch type" is a case of coming to a conclusion first and working backwards to find the evidence that fits.
e.g. if Poch only likes players that are risk adverse, then he wouldn't be playing Alli, Son and Lamela.......let alone Foyth.

If he didn't like players that could beat a man with Skill and play risky passes from CM, (your Onomah/Maghoma example), we wouldn't have just broke our transfer record for a player who'd strengths are exactly that and Poch wouldn't be wishing he could have coached Dembele when he was 21 as he would already have the perfect player.

On your point about players needing 3 out of 4 of work rate, reliability, mobility and strength, that is top level football for you.

Personally I also think Skipp will prove to be a better player than Rice but with your "Proper Chance" comment, it seems the tone of your comment is that Rice has been given more of a chance than Skipp which is very unfair since Skipp is 20 months younger than Rice.

FYI, Skipp has more PL mins than Rice did 20 months ago.

I do think quite a few posters wrongly accuse youngsters of having a poor attitude, when they actually mean mentality, which are completely different things e.g Joey Barton has a shit attitude but quite a strong mentality. In the case of Onomah, I have never read or seen anything that suggests his attitude is bad (like some posters have said on here) but I think it is his mentality that is holding him back.