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The Rugby Thread

SugarRay

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2011
7,984
11,110
The state of some of you blaming the ref when you were outplayed in every department.

My favourite bit was when Dawson claimed a combined XV would be all England.

Why be so arrogant? You were great to the final. Be more gracious !

Don’t think anyone blames the ref at all. Saffas absolutely deserves the win and did a number on England, we looked like a team that had shit the bed as soon as the game started pretty much.

Garces didn’t have a great game and wasn’t consistent but he had no bearing at all on where the trophy went.

As for Dawson? He’s an absolute tool and not worth listening to. I genuinely think he and the most of the pundits on the BBC don’t actually watch club rugby anymore.
One of the perks of us winning today would have been putting a few of the 2003 lot out to pasture!
 

teok

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2011
10,836
33,607
I don't pretend to understand legal stuff (maybe some of you are better equipped).

There is speculation that the wage cap isn't legally enforceable anyway and that saracens have all these top level lawyers who have been preparing for this for years.

Does that mean they would have to remove the cap?
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,391
I don't pretend to understand legal stuff (maybe some of you are better equipped).

There is speculation that the wage cap isn't legally enforceable anyway and that saracens have all these top level lawyers who have been preparing for this for years.

Does that mean they would have to remove the cap?


I'd have thought any competition rules are enforcable. It's not really in the realms of employment law either to my mind. If Saracens have had lawyers preparing for it it just goes to show that they knew they were breaking the rules but thought they could get away with it. If that's the case I hope they get stuffed. One good thing about Rugby is that they don't take any shit with the sanctions they hand out, and I think the game is far better for it. Compare this to the 'punishments' given to foreign teams supporters making monkey chants at black player.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
That is going to run and run in terms of appeals, but as it stands still questions unanswered as to what happens now. The fine and points deduction is for previous seasons, what do they have to do in order to comply in future. Do Sarries have to shed players? do others have to take a (big) paycut? I take it the 'investments' will have to stop. Could have ripple effect on the national team, given who is caught up in it.

Further salary cap reform has to be on the agenda though. I think Sarries have clearly been very creative in their dealings, it needed stopping, but they are just top of the scale and most other clubs are at it too. Pointless having a cap where there are so many workarounds. And they have done some good work in terms of academy and bringing through their own players which in general probably should get bigger cap dispensation (though would probably need to beef up poaching rules for junior players, as you'd then get an arms race at academy level). It doesn't seem fit for purpose.
 

teok

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2011
10,836
33,607
The disaster for the prem would be if they removed the cap. Rugby makes no money as it is (I think only exeter made any profit).

Mpickard I think the points deduction isn't for past seasons it will come into effect when the appeal ends so possibly next season.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
The disaster for the prem would be if they removed the cap. Rugby makes no money as it is (I think only exeter made any profit).

Mpickard I think the points deduction isn't for past seasons it will come into effect when the appeal ends so possibly next season.

Apparently it comes in now, they're on -26 points!

What I meant was that this punishment is for the three previous seasons (16/17, 17/18, 18/19). I presume their dodgy payment system is still in place now, as they claim they're doing nothing wrong, so if they don't change anything surely would be getting punished again for 19/20 and beyond so will have to comply at some point - pay cuts, or getting rid of players.

Of course this will be appealed and is going to run and run, but as it stands they're in a real hole.
 

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
7,405
13,785
I'd have thought any competition rules are enforcable. It's not really in the realms of employment law either to my mind.

I'm no lawyer but I'd disagree with that. Whatever we may think about it as fans, players of any sport are ultimately just employees of the club. If it's illegal for e.g. a group of supermarkets to club together and agree on a salary cap for all of their staff, then the same rules in theory would apply to a group of rugby clubs or whatever. To me, the argument that it makes the league more fun/competitive surely isn't a valid reason to override someone's rights as an employee?

Just to clarify I'm not saying I'm right, I have no idea really, just that's how it seems to me anyway.

Oh and PS I totally agree with you about the punishments. It is refreshing to see someone actually get a proper rollocking for breaking the rules rather than a pathetic slap on the wrist like we're used to seeing in football.
 

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
7,405
13,785
Apparently it comes in now, they're on -26 points!

What I meant was that this punishment is for the three previous seasons (16/17, 17/18, 18/19). I presume their dodgy payment system is still in place now, as they claim they're doing nothing wrong, so if they don't change anything surely would be getting punished again for 19/20 and beyond so will have to comply at some point - pay cuts, or getting rid of players.

Of course this will be appealed and is going to run and run, but as it stands they're in a real hole.

I wonder thoguh, as you say the appeal will take ages to run on, so would they not have to wait for the appeal process to be finished before imposing the point deduction? It would get really complicated if they put the points deduction in now, then Sarries got relegated and then won the appeal mid-way through next season having played half the year int he Championship already :confused:
 

max cady

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2011
2,538
3,153
What annoys me about Sarries is they way they think they can flaunts the rules and just get away with it.....................who does it remind you of.
 

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,105
47,061
I wonder thoguh, as you say the appeal will take ages to run on, so would they not have to wait for the appeal process to be finished before imposing the point deduction? It would get really complicated if they put the points deduction in now, then Sarries got relegated and then won the appeal mid-way through next season having played half the year int he Championship already :confused:

BBC article suggests that if they do appeal the fine and points deduction will be suspended until the matter is solved.

The only real surprise about any of this is that it's taken so long for Premiership Rugby to actually bring this issue to a head. It's been obvious for a long long time now that Sarries have been doing something that allows them to spend a lot more money than most, and effectively they've just lawyered out of it every time until now.

I fully expect them to get away with it eventually once they've used their lawyers, who are also probably part of their bus-driving team for some sort of tax boon, to talk the whole thing in circles for years.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
I'm no lawyer but I'd disagree with that. Whatever we may think about it as fans, players of any sport are ultimately just employees of the club. If it's illegal for e.g. a group of supermarkets to club together and agree on a salary cap for all of their staff, then the same rules in theory would apply to a group of rugby clubs or whatever. To me, the argument that it makes the league more fun/competitive surely isn't a valid reason to override someone's rights as an employee?

Just to clarify I'm not saying I'm right, I have no idea really, just that's how it seems to me anyway.

Oh and PS I totally agree with you about the punishments. It is refreshing to see someone actually get a proper rollocking for breaking the rules rather than a pathetic slap on the wrist like we're used to seeing in football.

I would suggest that your supermarket scenario is illegal by law as being cartel.
Whereas the clubs all sign up to the salary cap, and is intrinsic part of competition, to ensure fair play.
Rugby League has salary cap for example, clubs have fallen foul of it and been fined/deducted points.
My understanding is that Wray has topped up the declared salaries of the players by paying part of their “salaries” through other companies he has created/owns for the sole purpose of circumventing the salary cap.

This seems to be similar to the Manchester City FFP case, where the players image rights have been transferred to another Company owned by Abu Dhabi investments, and they are paid part of their “salary” from that to avoid it going in City’s books and with a few other tricks, try and stay within FFP.

Gutted, Sarries is my team, watched quite a few games down at Bramley Road when I was a kid.
 
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Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,391
I would suggest that your supermarket scenario is illegal by law as being cartel.
Whereas the clubs all sign up to the salary cap, and is intrinsic part of competition, to ensure fair play.
Rugby League has salary cap for example, clubs have fallen foul of it and been fined/deducted points.
My understanding is that Wray has topped up the declared salaries of the players by paying part of their “salaries” through other companies he has created/owns for the sole purpose of circumventing the salary cap.

This seems to be similar to the Manchester City FFP case, where the players image rights have been transferred to another Company owned by Abu Dhabi investments, and they are paid part of their “salary” from that to avoid it going in City’s books and with a few other tricks, try and stay within FFP.

Gutted, support Sarries, watched quite a few games down at Bramley Road when I was a kid.

This is the crux of it IMO. They've broken the rules of a competition they signed up for. I'm not sure how employment law applies to competitive sport when regulations have been specifically brought in to try to ensure a more level playing field. That type of action doesn't exist in the real world as far as I can make out.
 

longtimespur

Well-Known Member
Sep 10, 2014
5,830
9,949
Gutted, Sarries is my team, watched quite a few games down at Bramley Road when I was a kid.
Is that the Southgate one? I used to go fishing in a park down past there a LONG time ago. Catch tube from Turnpike Lane or Wood Green up to Oakwood.
My maths teacher at grammar school use to play for the Sarries back then. (late 50's early 60's )
Name was Mulcaster or something similar.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
Is that the Southgate one? I used to go fishing in a park down past there a LONG time ago. Catch tube from Turnpike Lane or Wood Green up to Oakwood.
My maths teacher at grammar school use to play for the Sarries back then. (late 50's early 60's )
Name was Mulcaster or something similar.

Yep, basically playing Top Division Rugby, in what amounted to nothing much more than a railed off area of a public park.
Saracens Amateurs still play there.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
Only just read that Saracens have a tie in with a club quite local to me, Ampthill.
Think similar to the Hartpury/Gloucester tie in, except that one is more restricted than Sarries one.
They were in the 7th tier before tie-in and now second tier of Rugby.
One of the strangest grounds in country apparently, on the side of a hill, and you have to walk a mile through farms/fields from car park to get there.
 
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talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
Staff
Oct 2, 2004
48,105
47,061
This is the crux of it IMO. They've broken the rules of a competition they signed up for. I'm not sure how employment law applies to competitive sport when regulations have been specifically brought in to try to ensure a more level playing field. That type of action doesn't exist in the real world as far as I can make out.

Yep if they didn't believe they were legal in the first place, why sign up to them and then spend 3 years trying to get around them?

Really hope the authorities don't bottle this and we end up seeing Saracens vs Cornish Pirates next season.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,391
Yep if they didn't believe they were legal in the first place, why sign up to them and then spend 3 years trying to get around them?

Really hope the authorities don't bottle this and we end up seeing Saracens vs Cornish Pirates next season.


Years ago in Formula one, Colin Chapman used to run the Lotus team. They used to say that when the new season's rule book turned up, the other teams would set about trying to build the best car within the prescribed rules, whereas Chapman would spend loads of time studying the rules to see if there was anything ambiguous he could take advantage of and build his car accordingly. Maybe Saracens have tried to be a bit too clever here, and if they've gone to far they'll get what they deserve.
 
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