The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[For the love of Spurs]

To play devils advocate a bit here, as I do get your points, but the Liverpool CL final loss came at a completely different time for that group of players. They'd only been properly good for that one season at that point, it showed that the project was working if anything.

When we lost that CL final, that group of players and Poch's Tottenham career were at a completely different point. We'd lost 2 stupid FA cup semis we should of won, lost a league cup final, didn't catch up Leicester, didn't catch up Chelsea. We'd already had our time in the sun when we'd been pretty much the best team in England for 2 seasons and won nothing.

I don't think it's fair to compare really.

Personally, I really didn't take that CL final loss well, worse than lasagne gate even... It "felt" like that was our last chance to win something with that group. I'm largely over what's happening now, I dealt with it in the summer. I'm just not surprised the players and Poch haven't been able to pick themselves up again. And the reasons are as much about the previous times we've failed to go the distance and the fact it's clear the time for this group of players at spurs is numbered.

Very good post.

 

[Shadydan]

The truth is Liverpool have been improving over the last two seasons and we have been consistently getting worse. We were extremely lucky to get to the CL final, Liverpool would have been unlucky not to. Our run papered over some serious cracks - while during Poch's first few years we were improving on every single metric, for two seasons now every element of our game has been declining. We scraped through the group stage by some miracle, we were wonderful against Dortmund but City gifted us a chance with their first leg selection, and Moura produced magic against Ajax when they relaxed in the second half of the second leg, having completely dominated us up until that point home and away. Meanwhile in the league, Liverpool were pushing City all the way, whereas we were showing relegation form.

I don't know what has gone wrong or how it can be changed. Poch's success was always based around the energy of youth and the enthusiasm to believe in his high intensity (and physically demanding) philosophy. As this group of players are now much older and less enthused we either need a new manager or a fresh young rebuild of players. Since the problematic players mostly don't want to be here, I would prefer the latter. Provided Poch shows he still wants to be here.

Liverpool's trajectory crossed ours a few years ago and was always heading up as we declined. While Poch and the players knew that the CL final was our one last chance with this team (deep down they all know we aren't going to be challenging for the league while we can't expect another miracle run to the CL final), whereas with Liverpool their players knew that their second CL final in a row was symptomatic of their genuine progress, and now they will push on a win the league this year IMO. I suspect that the disappointment of losing the final, especially in the way that we did, has simply destroyed the positive energy in this group. Especially as they all know it was a chance in a million.

There was much talk of Poch's new age approach to the final, the walking on coals, the positive energy from the universe. I suspect that the emphasis on this rather than tactics, the choice of Kane over Moura, the formation and the performance and result has created further friction in this group. Liverpool may well go on to dominate for the next few years, we on the other hand need to restart from scratch. Pochettino has shown he is capable of wonderful things, but only with young players who completely believe in his message.

Why is there a narrative surrounding us that we were lucky to get to the CL final but Liverpool weren't? They nearly didn't get out of their group and were a Dembele miss away from going out in the semi's.

If we were lucky than Liverpool were and the majority of CL finalists were as well using that logic. For example that City tie yeah okay they didn't play De Bruyne in the first leg but Kane went off Injured early in the 2nd half and had Winks missing for the 2nd leg and Sissoko went off injured. Ajax we were depleted with injuries as well so how is that luck?

Thuth is in a k.o competition you need some luck along the way but let's not overlook the fact that you still need to win the tie.

 

[spursfan77]

So what you are saying then is that Poch is not experienced enough to make us into winners?
You don’t need experience to be able to go again and motivate your players to try again. Use Liverpool as the blueprint surely that’s motivation in itself??

I don’t know. I know klopp motivated his team to win the champions league after losing the final the year before. We may well win it this season, but at the moment, it’s not looking likely.

 

[sausage]

Why is there a narrative surrounding us that we were lucky to get to the CL final but Liverpool weren't? They nearly didn't get out of their group and were a Dembele miss away from going out in the semi's.

If we were lucky than Liverpool were and the majority of CL finalists were as well using that logic. For example that City tie yeah okay they didn't play De Bruyne in the first leg but Kane went off Injured early in the 2nd half and had Winks missing for the 2nd leg and Sissoko went off injured. Ajax we were depleted with injuries as well so how is that luck?

Thuth is in a k.o competition you need some luck along the way but let's not overlook the fact that you still need to win the tie.

I'd say it is something more based on the team form. Liverpool were excellent and consistent all season, whereas our CL form matched our league form in that we never looked convincing and got through the whole season by the skin of our teeth

 

[nailsy]

Why is there a narrative surrounding us that we were lucky to get to the CL final but Liverpool weren't? They nearly didn't get out of their group and were a Dembele miss away from going out in the semi's.

If we were lucky than Liverpool were and the majority of CL finalists were as well using that logic. For example that City tie yeah okay they didn't play De Bruyne in the first leg but Kane went off Injured early in the 2nd half and had Winks missing for the 2nd leg and Sissoko went off injured. Ajax we were depleted with injuries as well so how is that luck?

Thuth is in a k.o competition you need some luck along the way but let's not overlook the fact that you still need to win the tie.

We needed results to go our way in the final group game, we were helped by a late VAR call against City and we scored with virtually the last kick off the ball against Ajax. Some of the stuff in the media is absolute crap, but It's not really surprising that people think we could have easily gone out earlier in the tournament.

 

[Shadydan]

We needed results to go our way in the final group game, we were helped by a late VAR call against City and we scored with virtually the last kick off the ball against Ajax. Some of the stuff in the media is absolute crap, but It's not really surprising that people think we could have easily gone out earlier in the tournament.

If we hadn't had a legitimate goal ruled out against PSV we wouldn't have had to rely on other results

And we weren't helped by a VAR call because it was a legitimate decision but despite that I do understand it coming from rival fans, it's when I hear it from our own fans it annoys me.

 

[Ronwol196061]

I thought generally our footie was terrible last season. Yes sometimes we scored in bunches but much more than that we were not effective. I think a lot of fans including me were surprised how we sometimes pulled out points and victories and it was often luck or due to tiredness by our opponents.
Its continuing even now. There are a lot of factors but I think we have cheated fate and it finally caught up with us.
We still have a lot of very good players but we are not getting the best out of them, there is a lack of coherence in our play a lack of creativity and when pace and the physical game lets you down we don't have that much in creating any kinds of flow.
There have been lots of talk by Poch and the players about how good we are and how ready they are but their talking with their boots has said the opposite. Levy and Poch are holding on right now but its not going to get better the way it is and Im not sure whats going to give

 

[Shadydan]

I'd say it is something more based on the team form. Liverpool were excellent and consistent all season, whereas our CL form matched our league form in that we never looked convincing and got through the whole season by the skin of our teeth

That's fair enough but it irks me a little how we were seen as lucky and given no credit for our CL run, it's a lazy argument.

 

[sausage]

That's fair enough but it irks me a little how we were seen as lucky and given no credit for our CL run, it's a lazy argument.

It is, but it's well-supported by how limp we were in the final. I think the overall, holistic, statement would be that we were lucky to contend for anything considering our 2nd half-of-season slump, whereas Liverpool would have been unlucky to have finished their season with nothing to show for it.

It'd be interested to see, as an aside, whether we'd be trading places with them right now had we won. I can't help but feel that a loss in the CL final again would have been terminally devastating for them.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

To play devils advocate a bit here, as I do get your points, but the Liverpool CL final loss came at a completely different time for that group of players. They'd only been properly good for that one season at that point, it showed that the project was working if anything.

When we lost that CL final, that group of players and Poch's Tottenham career were at a completely different point. We'd lost 2 stupid FA cup semis we should of won, lost a league cup final, didn't catch up Leicester, didn't catch up Chelsea. We'd already had our time in the sun when we'd been pretty much the best team in England for 2 seasons and won nothing.

I don't think it's fair to compare really.

Personally, I really didn't take that CL final loss well, worse than lasagne gate even... It "felt" like that was our last chance to win something with that group. I'm largely over what's happening now, I dealt with it in the summer. I'm just not surprised the players and Poch haven't been able to pick themselves up again. And the reasons are as much about the previous times we've failed to go the distance and the fact it's clear the time for this group of players at spurs is numbered.

Definitely some sense in this post. Truth is our players have been a nearly team for the past 4-5 seasons. That is gonna take its toll mentally. This has why Poch has been talking about a refresh/rebuild. We needed a reboot of hunger to go again.

What we are seeing now has little to do with tactics or personnel, it’s more to do with that few percent of hunger and motivation we are missing. Poch has clearly tried to address this with new signings and bringing through youth but rebuilds are messy for various reasons.

Transitioning from a tight band of brothers to a new dynamic with new friendships and bonds takes time. And this is what we are going through now..we might see more dodgy results before the season is over but I believe Poch is committed to the project and Levy will back so we’ll come through it.

 

[Lumiere]

Definitely some sense in this post. Truth is our players have been a nearly team for the past 4-5 seasons. That is gonna take its toll mentally. This has why Poch has been talking about a refresh/rebuild. We needed a reboot of hunger to go again.

Ok, but as the manager he should be able to motivate them without needing to rebuild the entire squad, that's part of his job.

 

[yankspurs]

Ok, but as the manager he should be able to motivate them without needing to rebuild the entire squad, that's part of his job.

Hard to motivate players who know there on their way out, either running down their contract or have been offered around for 2 years.

 

[nedley]

So Levy and Poch showing a united front at the NFL game together.

Levy is not going to pull the plug anything soon unless things continue to get worse.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Ok, but as the manager he should be able to motivate them without needing to rebuild the entire squad, that's part of his job.

He’s not rebuilding the entire squad is he. Just refreshing certain positions.

 

[double0]

We need to go back to basics and sort our goal keeper out long term (Hugo makes to many mistakes) and our Central defence, Toby and Jan are far to slow and ponderous.

 

[Styopa]

One of the problems has been that Pochettino has looked as fed up as some of the players.

However if he is to rebuild, and I do think there's enough needed to warrant calling it rebuilding, he needs at least a new CB, two new fullbacks and another AM/CM depending on how he intends to set the team up post Eriksen. Half a team basically with room for improvement (like GK) if we have genuine title aspirations.

 

[daryl hannah]

One of the problems has been that Pochettino has looked as fed up as some of the players.

However if he is to rebuild, and I do think there's enough needed to warrant calling it rebuilding, he needs at least a new CB, two new fullbacks and another AM/CM depending on how he intends to set the team up post Eriksen. Half a team basically with room for improvement (like GK) if we have genuine title aspirations.

So...

1 x CB
2 x FB
1 x AM/CM
1 x GK

I'd add to that

2 x DM
1 x CF

 

[Shadydan]

So...

1 x CB
2 x FB
1 x AM/CM
1 x GK

I'd add to that

2 x DM
1 x CF

*Parrott
*Skipp

 

[Japhet]

Why is there a narrative surrounding us that we were lucky to get to the CL final but Liverpool weren't? They nearly didn't get out of their group and were a Dembele miss away from going out in the semi's.

If we were lucky than Liverpool were and the majority of CL finalists were as well using that logic. For example that City tie yeah okay they didn't play De Bruyne in the first leg but Kane went off Injured early in the 2nd half and had Winks missing for the 2nd leg and Sissoko went off injured. Ajax we were depleted with injuries as well so how is that luck?

Thuth is in a k.o competition you need some luck along the way but let's not overlook the fact that you still need to win the tie.

Liverpool were also lucky with the early penalty decision in the final IMO. Could have been an entirely different game without that.

 

[daryl hannah]

*Parrott
*Skipp

Love Skipp and interested in Parrott. Yet with Dier and Wanyama outgoing, surely we need to replace them. Not sure Skipp, good as he is can drop into a back 3 or protect the defence like Wanyams and Dier used to do.

Parrott's raw and young. Hasn't had the benefit of 5 loan spells that Harry had before making the team.