The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[sausage]

Thanks mate, good read.

I am not a football expert, but for the rest of this post I shall be acting like I think I do. Let's clear that argument up first. ??‍‍?

These are the kind of tactics which should be picked up by a world class manager. Fool him once, shame on Liverpool, but fool him twice?

Anyway, I know we've all got our Clouseau hats on and shovels out at the moment and are having a little dig here and there, but when you do start digging a lot more flaws become apparent.

Poch has to stop all this talking, as his contradictions are giving so much fuel to the fire he's facing at the moment. They're starting to come across as just excuses now. Excuses paraphrased below, or slightly simplified to suit my agenda....

'Players too young to win things'. - At the time, I thought that was fair enough. They had a truckload of potential and looked like they were going to realise it. Give him a tick for this one.

'World Cup has taken it's toll'. - Fair enough, it clearly did. Tick.

'Playing at Wembley is hard'. - Definitely fair enough and he handled it very, very well all things considered. Tick.

'We need some players'. - Agreed. Tick.

'We don't need any players' - Disagree.

'We don't have any money' - Disagree. Hoddle said for a fact he did.

'We were all depressed after the CL loss' - Agree. Tick.

'Going into the new season, we're all still depressed' - Didn't like this at all. A great leader doesn't just get his men to fight, he gets them to back on their feet again once they've experienced losing.

'Harry Kane didn't give a team talk' - This was uncalled for, and showed he felt someone was stealing some thunder. Someone was lying. It was either Tripper or Poch. Trippier walked. I reckon that was the final straw for Tripps.

'I'm not a manager, I'm just a coach' - No need for this. Where the bollocks all started.

'Madrid/different challenge' - Detention.

'Players unhappy, will leave in window' - They didn't go and couldn't have wanted rid too much as still playing most of them now.

'I am happy with my squad, I don't see any changes' - Eh?

'I can't wait for window to close, dark clouds/uncertainty etc.' - Agreed. Hope they would.

'Window closed, players don't want to be here' - So dark cloud is still here?

'Can't wait for window to open' - Me too. Perhaps this will be the window the half arse gang move on.

'VAR has saved our ass more times than that wanker Moura' - he didn't say that at all.

For me, it's all been far, far too negative alongside such bad results. I could forgive him for one or the other, but this heap of negativity for someone who preaches positivity is hypocritical, false and just not what you need from the man in charge. I'm sure there are more contradictions and excuses on his part, but it's feeling dirty digging this much on Poch, but he does deserve it.

He took the plaudits and he has to take some criticism too.

The only other premier league manager who I can EVER remember acting like this, for a prolonged period of time is Mourinho.

Saying that, I want Mourinho to take over. Perhaps I'll shut up.

From what I have witnessed, MP seems to have a weird thing about other teams tactics. It's like he doesn't feel like he should have to change the team to adapt to the opposition, and they should have to adapt to his tactics.

One thing which (I would be amazed if people denied it) that has been consistent over his tenure has been either not seeing, or completely ignoring, the tactical setups he could employ that would stifle the opposition. You see it in the threads here where people are like "we should do this to stop their one trick thing" and we do the opposite. The examples would be numerous, but I think I could count on one hand (out of some 200 matches he's had now) where we actually looked like we were set up to exploit something about the other team.

That's what annoys me, and I've give up hope of that changing - we're 5 years in, and it doesn't look like something that he will ever do with us.

 

[soup]

From what I have witnessed, MP seems to have a weird thing about other teams tactics. It's like he doesn't feel like he should have to change the team to adapt to the opposition, and they should have to adapt to his tactics.

One thing which (I would be amazed if people denied it) that has been consistent over his tenure has been either not seeing, or completely ignoring, the tactical setups he could employ that would stifle the opposition. You see it in the threads here where people are like "we should do this to stop their one trick thing" and we do the opposite. The examples would be numerous, but I think I could count on one hand (out of some 200 matches he's had now) where we actually looked like we were set up to exploit something about the other team.

That's what annoys me, and I've give up hope of that changing - we're 5 years in, and it doesn't look like something that he will ever do with us.

He obviously has massive faith in his belief, and why not? It was working a charm for a while when his press and high fitness were king, but once everyone else cottoned on and realised getting players very fit was a good idea, we've been caught lacking elsewhere, and I truly believe he's ridden his luck with the golden era of players we've had.

You're right, I can't remember too many times when we've seen a tactical masterclass from him, or even obvious changes. Liverpool didn't need any hindsight after the game. We all knew we'd get overrun with that line up before the game, but why not Poch? I just don't get it.

 

[soup]

I just don't understand why people get perturbed that there are those who still support Poch. I'm of the opinion that it isn't looking good for him but it's sad to see people being so harsh about him. At the end of the day though why does it matter that some people still want him at the club? It's hilarious to think that it makes any difference. The only person or people who will ultimately make the decision is DL and I guess Joe Lewis but I would have thought that DL gets the final call.

I feel it's far better to be have a debate with someone with different views and maybe learn a few things rather than just get angry and react with hostility or by trying to belittle someone just because of their viewpoint. We've all got Spurs in mind.

I feel his time is up, but I've read lots of posts in this thread that have me changing my mind once in a while, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I won't be cheering if he does go though, despite not really liking him anymore. It'll be a sad day and the end of an era, and it was a good era.

 

[Lighty64]

The things people are most perplexed about from Sunday are the following, in no particular order;

Eriksen in the starting XI after being absolutely awful for months, and then staying on the pitch for 88 minutes having had zero effect on the game in any sense.
Ndombele not starting after an excellent performance on Tuesday, coming on and actually helping us to play better and then Poch basically shooting the effect he had on the team down
Leaving an ineffective Winks and Alli on the pitch.
His tactics and in game management allowing Robertson and Arnold to have as much space as they wanted, making 2 attacking subs with 5 minutes to go to try and salvage something.

Besides, it's not just Sunday that has people irritated and annoyed. Its what's gone on at the results end since January/February.

Our form has been shocking since he was linked with United and Madrid. He spoke the night before the CL final and made it all about him leaving if we won.

He continues to play a system that has not worked for the team. He's so stubborn that he will continue to play it, with players who don't want to be at the club just to try to prove that hes in the right.

He never ever takes responsibility. Never admits that he got it wrong.

I had a lot of love and admiration for him up to last season. But he continues to shoot himself, and the club, in the foot by continuing to make the same god damn mistakes every week.

That part I totally disagree with because there was so many reasons why we struggled, and I can see reasons for a few results this season too, but that starting lineup on Sunday turned me from an in to an out, and not making changes at halftime angered me too.

The only team that wouldn't have struggled last season with all the injuries, lack of preseason, would have been City due to their depth

 

[Lighty64]

If we were to win our next 4 league games would all this hostility towards MP fade?

What does he have to do to get people back on side?

for me stop playing players that don't want to be here and play for the club. Eriksen being the main culprit no desire, or passion

 

[Lighty64]

Granted, I was rather drunk (it's my latest coping mechanism, to watch through a booze fuelled fug) but I didn't think Aurier was that bad. He seems to be mainly getting lambasted because Mane won a very clever penalty, in my opinion.
He offered something going forward when he got the chance but with Eriksen in front of him, he had absolutely no protection.
Rose, on the other side, was running around like a headless chicken on speed but at least had Son, and sometimes Alli, offering some kind of protection.

I realise that Serge is always capable of a massive brain-fart but considering he was so isolated on Sunday, I think some of the shit being hurled at him is a little harsh.

Still cannot understand why Davies didn't play on the left. He doesn't have the pace of Rose but he can actually defend very well, negating that shortfall.
He also has a decent delivery on him.

it was the same with Aurier v Bayern, he had no protection (to be honest our defence wasn't protected), and the only difference with the score was Bayern's 7 goals were all well executed

 

[thebenjamin]

it was the same with Aurier v Bayern, he had no protection (to be honest our defence wasn't protected), and the only difference with the score was Bayern's 7 goals were all well executed

Also Aurier kept inexplicably running to other parts of the pitch that weren't the right back position

 

[Lighty64]

The WC only explains so much...and you can't dismiss odd team selections and formations because of that.

Agree he may have wanted to protect the new signings from being thrown in during such a big game, but that doesn't explain how Eriksen and Dele stayed on for all intents and purposes to the bitter end - GCL could have come on after an hour for CE, and if he had no impact no one would have batted an eye because he couldn't have been worse than CE

Those decisions, and similar tactical issues and decisions, have been plaguing this team way beyond this season. I actually think the lack of signing and fatigue papered over a decline that is being witnessed in full this season

I honestly think the the WC fatigue, lack of signings combined with the deflation of the (lack of stadium) move has impacted Poch irreparably

He's an emotional guy, by his own admission, and it's entirely human that when you fail to attain a goal (the stadium, the CL final) the psychological impact can be hard, if not impossible, to overcome if it's big enough. He's a human - we all react differently to failure, and i think we're seeing the fall out from that

Those factors have impacted his demeanour, his attitude to the squad and it's translated to the team's performance.

I fear he's too far gone to arrest the decline.

the odd team selections at the back end of last season was due to the burnout, and tiredness, and injuries. the results weren't help with our only 2 players in the deep area of midfield playing the last 3 months carrying injuries, or our whole backline had been playing near on non stop for 2 seasons. how we managed to get to the CL final was a miracle, helped by Pep resting KDB at our place, and the fact VAR was in place

 

[Lighty64]

I’ll take payment in avocados and/or fedoras.

Spoiler

You could be forgiven for thinking that someone had sabotaged the scouting report handed to Mauricio Pochettino.

The common theme of big matches involving Liverpool this season has been simple – nullifying the full-backs is vital.

Unai Emery was brave — or foolish — when travelling to Anfield, using a midfield diamond with two strikers. Although Arsenal found some joy on the break, Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson were allowed too much space, which helped Liverpool pile on the pressure, and Alexander-Arnold was crucial in two of Liverpool’s three goals.

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer used a different approach last weekend, playing a 3-5-2 and seeking to press Liverpool’s full-backs with Manchester United’s wing-backs, while keeping strikers in the channels to dissuade them from advancing. It was the first time Liverpool had been denied all three points in the Premier League this season.

Pochettino’s approach on Sunday, then, was somewhat curious. Tottenham used a 4-3-3 system, which usually looks like 4-5-1 without the ball. But Pochettino’s interpretation involved Christian Eriksen and Son Heung-min, the two wide players (at least on paper) tucking inside very narrow, often in front of Spurs’ central midfielders in more of a 4-3-2-1-ish formation. The result was inevitable: Liverpool constantly switched play between their two full-backs.

This has been an obvious part of Liverpool’s approach play over the last year, so it shouldn’t have come as a surprise to Tottenham. The most obvious example came in Liverpool’s 2-1 defeat by Manchester City in January when, in the build-up to Roberto Firmino’s goal, Alexander-Arnold switched play to Robertson twice in the same move, first with his right foot…

…and then with his left…

…in the build-up to a brilliantly-worked goal.

That’s the interesting thing about Liverpool’s big switches of play. Usually this move is designed to simply tire the opposition, working them from side to side and waiting for gaps to appear to play through. But for Liverpool, it’s often a direct route to goal.

One example came earlier in the season in the win away at Southampton on August 17. This is a typical situation — Alexander-Arnold receiving possession on the right, and immediately looking across to the opposite flank.

The weight of Alexander-Arnold’s passes is almost always perfect, and on this occasion it allowed Robertson to head the ball first-time into the path of Sadio Mane…

…who responded with a superb backheel for Robertson’s run, and the left-back forced a decent save from Angus Gunn.

That’s what’s so dangerous about Liverpool – their switches of play are combined with a sense of purpose and directness. They used a similar tactic in the 2-0 win over Tottenham in the Champions League final.

So Tottenham should have been prepared. But, it seems they weren’t.

Here’s an early example of the problem on Sunday. Alexander-Arnold receives the ball in his usual right-back zone, and Christian Eriksen is occupying a narrow position more typical of a right-sided forward.



This leaves Robertson unmarked. Alexander-Arnold finds him with a huge booming pass, not merely switching the play but also encouraging Robertson 20 yards up the pitch.

Spurs’ strategy for dealing with this type of pass was unusual. Rather than Eriksen tracking back with Robertson, Pochettino asked Moussa Sissoko, playing to the right of the midfield trio, to push out wide and close down Liverpool’s left-back. Eriksen, in turn, would then drop back and cover the space vacated by Sissoko, watching the run of Georginio Wijnaldum.

That wasn’t an isolated incident. After half an hour, the same thing – Alexander-Arnold on the right flank, Eriksen seemingly in a position to close down Virgil van Dijk rather than Robertson, and a long whipped pass to the opposite flank.

Again, it’s Sissoko coming out towards Robertson and Eriksen dropping in.

As the first half continued, this approach started to tire Spurs. Here’s an almost identical situation, albeit this time Eriksen and Sissoko are much further across the pitch, opening up more room for Robertson. Like in the first example, Alexander-Arnold cuts across the ball, swerving it further up the pitch into more space.

Sissoko and Eriksen repeat the pattern – Sissoko sprints out, Eriksen drops in.

But it’s starting to take its toll – Sissoko ends up clumsily fouling Robertson, giving Liverpool the opportunity to whip the ball into the box.

By the end of the first half, it seemed Spurs had changed their plan. Here, again, is Alexander-Arnold hitting a big switch of play to Robertson.

This time, though, it’s Eriksen who ends up as the closest opponent, with Sissoko remaining in the centre of the pitch.

Exposing themselves to the switch of play caused Spurs more problems after half-time. Here’s the usual midfield situation – three central players flat across the pitch, Eriksen and Son more advanced and more central than you’d expect, and Alexander-Arnold switching the play to Robertson.

And, while Eriksen closed down Robertson, he chips a cross to the far post, where Roberto Firmino forces a save from Paulo Gazzaniga.



And the reverse happened, too — albeit less frequently. Alexander-Arnold became more of a crossing threat in the second half, sometimes from Robertson hitting long diagonals. It’s worth highlighting how close together Spurs’ midfield trio are in this example.

Alexander-Arnold started crossing more, from his usual deep positions. This one was cleared by Davinson Sanchez, but Liverpool’s right-back was their main creative outlet.

One of Alexander-Arnold’s long diagonals actually resulted in Liverpool’s winner – his big booming ball to the left flank for Mane eventually resulted in him being tripped by Serge Aurier, and Mohamed Salah converted from the spot.

But it was those full-back to full-back switches that formed the main part of Liverpool’s approach. Some opponents are tracking Alexander-Arnold and Robertson closely but, against sides that leave space on the flanks, Liverpool’s full-backs switch play with a frequency perhaps not witnessed since Cafu and Roberto Carlos for Brazil. The 1-0 victory away at Sheffield United on September 28 was another example, with Liverpool playing one of those passes inside the first two minutes.



Another interesting element from that game – and a semi-regular part of Liverpool’s play – is that the full-backs often end up on opposite flanks after set-pieces. This generally happens after Alexander-Arnold has trotted across to take a corner from the left. Against Sheffield United, this happened for a couple of minutes and featured the full-backs on the ‘wrong’ sides, but still knocking long passes between each other, as seen in this passing move.





But it’s nevertheless still almost unprecedented to witness it happening with the frequency of Sunday’s game. According to Opta’s data, they exchanged 11 passes, which is the fifth-highest combination between two full-backs in any Premier League game since the start of last season.

The four matches with more full-back to full-back switches, meanwhile, are all down to Manchester City, and matches where Pep Guardiola has deployed two of Kyle Walker, Danilo, Fabian Delph and Olaksandr Zinchenko as narrow ‘half-backs’, playing in central midfield in possession.

For example, at home to Brighton last season, Walker and Zinchenko found one another 17 times, but the graphic of their passing shows that only one of these was a genuine switch of play between the flanks.

Look at Alexander-Arnold and Robertson’s combinations and, aside from a couple at set-pieces, they are much longer passes. It’s fair to say, then, that switching the play with this regularity is almost unheard of.

And this is one of the most difficult things about playing Liverpool. It’s hardly unusual for teams to switch play against narrow opposition, but this is generally conducted more incrementally, via at least one central midfielder. It’s arguable that this can actually be more difficult to defend against, because it means having to adjust positioning multiple times within a short space of time. Huge lobbed passes between flanks are sometimes ineffective, as they give the opposition time to shift across the pitch.

But the precision and speed of Liverpool’s switches, particularly those from Alexander-Arnold, are a different proposition entirely. Against some teams, you can protect the midfield, encourage balls out to the full-backs and be confident you won’t get hurt.

Against Liverpool it’s the opposite, which makes Pochettino’s approach somewhat perplexing. Granted, it was only a narrow defeat — but it was nevertheless a very narrow formation.

just like we had when Walker and Rose where playing well, and even Davies when Rose was injured

 

[Lighty64]

I'm sorry but he's not better than Burkinshaw, given the trophies he won, and Billy Nich was still in charge when you were alive (though i know what you mean, given you were a kid when he was still in charge)



Absolutely - that was my point - he's pissed off. But it's impacting the squad. He kept flirting with United and Real, and made it clear he wanted to leave if he won the CL, was unhappy with his influence and lack of signings. If you were a player whose contract was up for renewal, being paid below market, would you sign for someone not knowing if they were going to hang around, and they kept moaning? Every organisation is impacted by how the leader behaves - we're no different.

i love Poch, he's given us some incredible times and results, and i want him to turn it around - I just think there's too much water under the bridge

I see this posted so often, yet though he never turned around and said he didn't want the United job, he never said it interested him. if there is proof of him doing so then please post and I will apologies.

RM where trying for him, and he signed a 5yr contract, if he wanted the RM job he wouldn't of signed the extension. yes he said at an awards ceremony that one day he might manage RM (The biggest club in the world), but never used the word WANT.

 

[Lighty64]

Imagine what people are going to be like in here if we lose our next couple of games and drift miserably towards the relegation zone. Hopefully not but its a very real possibility

some will be happy if it means Levy pulling the plug.

I might have changed my mind about Poch, but I would never want Spurs to lose an important game, and at the moment every game is important

 

[Spurs72]

If we were to win our next 4 league games would all this hostility towards MP fade?

What does he have to do to get people back on side?

I would have to believe that somewhere in the next 4,5,6,7,8 games MP would play or likely start Christian Eriksen or Danny Rose or Serge Aurier.

So no, hostility stays.

I'll be back in his corner if he drops names above and gives Ndombele a bit more credit in his post match interviews.

MP seems like he's lost the plot.

 

[whitesocks]

I must have missed this, it surprises me....... when did he say that those were his methods etc

I don't think MP has ever mentioned any tactic or anything technical in his press conferences. I doubt he talks of these things to the players either. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that.

After a defeat he generally accepts there naturally will be opinions and rumours. He accepts all criticism. He accepts all opinions. But he certainly will not engage with any of them.
Would he engage if a senior player expressed those same concerns? I doubt it.

All dictatorships make quick and strong decisions. Gaining consensus saps energy. If the leadership have the right ideas, then incredible progress can be made. But if they lose touch with reality and get some funny ideas, these too will be rammed through quickly and there is no mechanism for anyone to query them.
(Well other than Levy ending the whole project and starting from scratch.)

 

[glacierSpurs]

That's probably the "normal" position, but not a majority. There are a lot of lurkers who never post their own opinions, but dot "doh" and "wtf" ratings on posts that they don't agree with.

IMO, lurkers should hit a minimum number of postings before they can neg posts in making forum discussions more constructive. It really doesn't hurt to reply 'I disagree because...'

Happily negging others' posts may just discourage those posters from posting if they are the sensitive types.

Until then, doh, spam, dislike and wtf are pretty self explanatory. But with disagree, sometimes most of us just really wish to hear what is being disagreed with.

 

[DenverSpur]

Sorry just posted this in Dele thread, but wtf is this shape supposed to be ? View attachment 57389

This diagram illustrates one of the reasons
We lost. The he basic game plan/ formation made sense but Eriksen and Son are supposed to be out wider to close down the FBs. Because they weren’t is why Liverpool put us under so much pressure. That Poch sat there and let Son and Eriksen sabotage the game plan is the most damning evidence of his failings. No haranguing from the sidelines, no substitutions!!! Nothing I can’t imagine the likes of Pep, Klopp, Moriniho or Fergie allowing that to happen. That’s why they won things and Poch hasn’t

 

[mill]

This diagram illustrates one of the reasons
We lost. The he basic game plan/ formation made sense but Eriksen and Son are supposed to be out wider to close down the FBs. Because they weren’t is why Liverpool put us under so much pressure. That Poch sat there and let Son and Eriksen sabotage the game plan is the most damning evidence of his failings. No haranguing from the sidelines, no substitutions!!! Nothing I can’t imagine the likes of Pep, Klopp, Moriniho or Fergie allowing that to happen. That’s why they won things and Poch hasn’t

Why do you think Eriksen and son sabotaged the game plan? How do you know that keeping them narrowwasn’t the game plan?

 

[spursfan77]

I feel it's far better to be have a debate with someone with different views and maybe learn a few things rather than just get angry and react with hostility or by trying to belittle someone just because of their viewpoint. We've all got Spurs in mind.

I feel his time is up, but I've read lots of posts in this thread that have me changing my mind once in a while, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I won't be cheering if he does go though, despite not really liking him anymore. It'll be a sad day and the end of an era, and it was a good era.

Exactly and you should be able to do it without getting abused. All that happens then is that I put these people on ignore and the debate gets diluted. I just can’t understand how some people seem to support Poch more than they support the club, it’s very strange.

 

[Gassin's finest]

everyone of u poch backers need to take a good look of your self.... before making more comments in this thread.... he is so much done and if You cant see this when watching us PLAY im lost for words!

Judging by the mere 4 posts you've made since 2012, I'd say that this is a common problem for you.

 

[LeParisien]

This diagram illustrates one of the reasons
We lost. The he basic game plan/ formation made sense but Eriksen and Son are supposed to be out wider to close down the FBs. Because they weren’t is why Liverpool put us under so much pressure. That Poch sat there and let Son and Eriksen sabotage the game plan is the most damning evidence of his failings. No haranguing from the sidelines, no substitutions!!! Nothing I can’t imagine the likes of Pep, Klopp, Moriniho or Fergie allowing that to happen. That’s why they won things and Poch hasn’t

That is not true. You are drawing strong conclusions based off limited knowledge. Not as bad as @whitesocks whos made the incredible claim that he doubts Poch ever talks about tactics. Incredible because it advertises his bombastic stupidity.

The game plan for Eriksen and Son was shown clearly on french tv (which like the rest of the tv in France is far more thoughtful than in anglophone countries). They were asked to track the fullback when Liverpool were attacking down that wing. However when the ball was on the other flank Son and Eriksen were asked to tuck inside almost to halfway and block passing lanes. Liverpool did well to switch play by knocking a series of perfect 50 yard balls but it did slow their play down.

The key benefit of this tactic was to help in transition. From the first few seconds this inside position would provide triangles in the middle that would help us break at pace. If eg Eriksen had been over on the opposite flank then he would have been a long way from the ball if we won it back in the middle.

It was a fairly effective strategy and didn’t result in us conceding any goals.


Whilst I’m on one, the graphic posted by @coys200 is useless by itself. Imagine Kane and Son are swapping positions all game. The graphic would show their average position as being on top of each other even though they never once lived in the same space. Average positions don’t tell you about the types of runs made or movement. Very blunt instrument.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

That is not true. You are drawing strong conclusions based off limited knowledge. Not as bad as @whitesocks whos made the incredible claim that he doubts Poch ever talks about tactics. Incredible because it advertises his bombastic stupidity.

The game plan for Eriksen and Son was shown clearly on french tv (which like the rest of the tv in France is far more thoughtful than in anglophone countries). They were asked to track the fullback when Liverpool were attacking down that wing. However when the ball was on the other flank Son and Eriksen were asked to tuck inside almost to halfway and block passing lanes. Liverpool did well to switch play by knocking a series of perfect 50 yard balls but it did slow their play down.

The key benefit of this tactic was to help in transition. From the first few seconds this inside position would provide triangles in the middle that would help us break at pace. If eg Eriksen had been over on the opposite flank then he would have been a long way from the ball if we won it back in the middle.

It was a fairly effective strategy and didn’t result in us conceding any goals.


Whilst I’m on one, the graphic posted by @coys200 is useless by itself. Imagine Kane and Son are swapping positions all game. The graphic would show their average position as being on top of each other even though they never once lived in the same space. Average positions don’t tell you about the types of runs made or movement. Very blunt instrument.

You got my attention when you said bombastic stupidity