The England Thread

[matty74]

Just shows what a complete waste of a 2 week break from proper football is .

even some of the players are crying away from these pointless nation league games, just glorified friendlies.

If these were tournament games we wouldn’t get players dropping out like this .
We are not even half way through November and this is the 3rd international break . I don’t know any fan that enjoys these weekends of no league football. It’s so tedious

 

[UncleBuck]

I wasn't entirely sure where to put this, but thought it was worth sharing. It's an article about the lack of English coaches with some data to back it up.

Spoiler: Article

Tuchel's appointment highlights England's dismal failure to produce tip-top managers​

England's top division has only got three English managers. No English boss has won the Premier League. And no English coach has won the European Cup for 40+ years.​

Nick Harris
Oct 28, 2024
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The appointment this month of Thomas Tuchel as England’s next permanent manager highlighted again the dearth of high-quality English coaches.
There are only three English managers in the Premier League - Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche and Gary O’Neil - and if you add Graham Potter as another possible successor to Gareth Southgate, they still have a total of zero major trophies, combined.
That fact isn’t meant to disparage that quartet. But the Premier League doesn’t have much Englishness about it, and the 20 clubs mostly don’t fancy Englishmen in charge. They are largely owned by rich foreigners, the majority of the players are foreign, and so are most of the managers.
This has led to a systemic problem not just with the production of home-grown coaches but, vitally, with opportunities for up-and-comers in the top division.

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The stats are damning. No English manager has ever won the Premier League title. The last Englishman to win it was Howard Wilkinson in 1991-92 with Leeds in the year before the PL began, and the English winner before him was Howard Kendall with Everton in 1986-87.
By the end of this current season, that pair will be the only English managers to have won the English title in the past 40 years.
The last major English trophy of any kind won by an English manager was 16 years ago, the 2008 FA Cup, lifted by Portsmouth under Harry Redknapp. The Englishman before ‘Arry to manage an FA Cup win was Joe Royle with Everton in 1995.
The last English manager to win the the League Cup / EFL Cup was Steve McClaren in 2004 with Middlesbrough, and before him Brian Little in 1996 with Aston Villa.
It’s more than 40 years since Joe Fagan was the last Englishman to manage the winners of the European Cup / Champions League, which he did with Liverpool in 1984. It’s also more than 40 years since an English manager won the UEFA Cup / Europa League. Keith Burkinshaw, with Spurs, won that trophy in 1984.
Since 1984 the European Cup / CL has been won by coaches from Italy (11 times), Romania (once), Portugal (three times), the Netherlands (four times), Yugoslavia (once), Belgium (once), Germany (seven times), Scotland (twice), Spain (seven times) and France (three times).
On 18 occasions in the last 40 years the European Cup / CL-winning manager has been of a different nationality to the team he led to glory, illustrative of how well managers of other nationalities travel, relative to English managers.
A “manager audit” (graphic below) of the head coaches currently in charge of the 96 clubs in Europe’s “Big 5” divisions highlights the lack of Englishmen, including in England. There are 42 managers working outside their own countries across those 96 clubs. If you want a bigger version of the graphic, it’s in the PDF here:

Managers At Big 96
956KB ∙ PDF file
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Some headline observations from this “audit”:

• No fewer than 25% of all the ‘Big 5’ managers are Spanish, or 24 of the 96, including 15 working in La Liga and nine elsewhere, including five in the Premier League.
• Italians are next best represented (19, with three outside Italy) then Germans (12, with three outside Germany), then Frenchmen (11, all in France).
• There are just four English managers across the 96 clubs; the three in the Premier League mentioned above plus Liam Rosenior at Strasbourg. Those four become five if you count Belgian-born Lens manager Will Still as English.
• Most of the “biggest” clubs in Europe have foreign managers. All of England’s “big six” clubs - Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham - have foreign managers. Spain’s biggest three clubs- Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid - have foreign managers, as do Germany’s “big two” Bayern and Dortmund plus reigning champions Leverkusen.
• France’s three current leading teams - PSG, Monaco and Marseille - all have foreign managers. In Italy there are Italian managers at Juventus, Inter and Napoli but foreign managers at Milan and Roma.

UEFA published their most recent “European Club Talent and Competition Landscape” report last month (PDF to download below) and it included a 14-page section (pages 46-59) about the demographics, experience, mobility, and “lifespans” of head coaches, among much else.

European Talent Landscape Sep 2024
27.7MB ∙ PDF file
Download
The head coaches section of the report includes the graphic below, which details the nationalities of coaches working abroad in the 2023-24 season. To be clear about definitions, these coaches either worked in one of 1,312 head coach / manager posts at top-division European clubs last season, or as manager of any national team (senior, not age group) anywhere in the world.
No fewer than 50 Spaniards were working outside Spain at top-flight European clubs, with another six in charge of national teams. The corresponding figures for Italians was 37 and eight; for Germans 24 and eight. There were a lot more Portuguese, Serbian, Croatian and Danish coaches working overseas at top-flight clubs last season than English coaches.

Since Tuchel’s appointment, I’ve noticed debates on social media and LinkedIn questioning whether the cost of obtaining a UEFA Pro Licence in England is prohibitive. That is the highest level of coaching qualification in European and mandatory for coaches to work in national leagues across the continent. It costs £13,700 in England, against €6,000 (£5,000) in Spain.
The most recent pan-European data on Pro Licences is from 2017, when there were 2,379 coaches with a Pro Licence in Spain, 861 in Germany, 826 in Italy, 586 in Portugal, 548 in Turkey, 391 in the Czech Republic and 383 in England. Per capita there are many more Pro Licence holders per head in Sweden, Norway, Scotland, Denmark, Croatia, Romania, the Netherlands and Serbia - among other places - than England.
I’m not convinced that pricing is the major issue. Rather it’s opportunity, or lack of it. For all the success of the Premier League as a global brand, it might be the wealth that accrues from that success that means there is more at stake financially than anywhere else. Thus patience is in short supply, and pretty much all clubs will go for experience (often foreign) over taking a chance on an upcoming Englishman.
Other football cultures, not least in Germany, encourage the development of home-grown coaches, who are more often handed opportunities.
Raphael Honigstein spoke well about this with Gary Lineker on a recent episode of The Rest is Football podcast. Raph echoed a lot of my own views, giving particular insight on his native country.
He said there was a pride in Germany that Tuchel had landed the England job, “There's another German manager in a top position. That reflects well on German football, reflects well on German coaching,” he said.
“Why is it that Germany are producing currently so many top coaches? There are a few reasons. First, you can be an under-23 coach, and then you'll be given the chance to actually coach a Bundesliga side. Without that chance, Tuchel might still be somewhere in the under-23s.
“Not only do we produce coaches, but we produce the environment, the ability for coaches to progress and be seen. That is, I think, totally key. Tuchel was an under-23 coach who got a job at Mainz, Nagelsmann was under-23 coach at Hoffenheim, and got the senior job at Hoffenheim.
“[Domenico] Tedesco is another one [who progressed to senior roles via youth coaching]. We have, I think, openness and people taking a chance on coaches like that.
“Then, of course, they still have to do well. They still have to show that they know what they're doing. And I think they know what they're doing because they are obsessed workers. These are people who, 24 hours a day, think about football, work on training practices, watch the games back three or four times, try to come up with new ideas, try to find an edge.
“And they do so because, again, in their clubs, they would have come for a system where you cannot simply buy three or four players to improve the team. The improvement has to come more often than not through the coaching. That is your real edge.
“So it's a different culture. And the third reason is that I think they have grown up in the model where you have shared responsibilities. They're coaches rather than managers.”
So why doesn't England produce these kind of coaches?
“I think it's because of the way the Premier League works. I think the Premier League is a league that attracts the best players from all of the world. And it's just easy to say who has won the league in Germany, who has won the league in Portugal, rather than getting, as used to be the case, somebody from Scotland or somebody who's just done really well in the Championship.
“It just doesn't have that natural progression for English coaches. When was the last time that you heard about an under-23 or a youth coach being promoted to senior job in English football?
”It just doesn't happen. So these coaches, they don't really have the ability to learn on the job. It's very, very difficult if you have a lot of supply, but no real demand, no real possibility to grow as a coach, to keep progressing in an orderly fashion, it's hard.”

This piece is one of numerous articles on this site that is free to read for everyone. But the work of the Sportingintelligence Substack, not least investigative pieces on the smoke & mirrors of Man City’s legal battles, the true scale of match-fixing in England, the ‘Skyfall’ series on drugs in British cycling, part 1 of 5 here, match-fixing in tennis, and much else, is unsustainable without paid subscriber support. It’s $7 a month, or £5.39, which is less than the price of a pint. Try it and read everything. And if you’re not getting value for month, unsubscribe. Thanks!

Tuchel's appointment highlights England's dismal failure to produce tip-top managers

England's top division has only got three English managers. No English boss has won the Premier League. And no English coach has won the European Cup for 40+ years.

sportingintelligence832.substack.com

Interesting article
Just had a look at the championship and there are 12 English managers out of 24, 15 out of 24 in league one and 19 out of 24 in league two.
Definitely points to a lack of opportunity the higher you go up the food chain for English managers.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Definitely points to a lack of opportunity the higher you go up the food chain for English managers.

The opportunity is the same for all managers regardless of nationality - there are a limited number of spots available.

What it points to is a lack of quality English managers in football.

 

[aliyid]

The opportunity is the same for all managers regardless of nationality - there are a limited number of spots available.

What it points to is a lack of quality English managers in football.

It's an interesting one, chairmen and clubs in general look for previous success when appointing a new manager.

It's far easier to sell the idea of a new manager to a fanbase saying they've won the league in [random country] than say getting a mid-table championship team into the playoffs.

Now that's not to say it's easy to win the league with Ajax / PSG / Celtic etc... but it looks better on paper. Now flip that around and see how many English coaches are managing overseas and the number of 'glamourous managers' become tiny in comparison.

This isn't helped by clubs fast-tracking ex-pros with limited managerial experience into big clubs and seeing them fail (i.e. Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney). There are a lot of very good English managers out there but it would take a brave chairman to take a punt on the Rob Edwards / Kieran McKenna / Cowley brothers compared to taking the easy option.

 

[UncleBuck]

This nations league thing is getting peoples knickers in a bit of a twist isn’t it, seeing as it’s just a just a group of friendlies!
Why hasn’t Dom been pulled out yet?!

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

It's an interesting one, chairmen and clubs in general look for previous success when appointing a new manager.

It's far easier to sell the idea of a new manager to a fanbase saying they've won the league in [random country] than say getting a mid-table championship team into the playoffs.

Now that's not to say it's easy to win the league with Ajax / PSG / Celtic etc... but it looks better on paper. Now flip that around and see how many English coaches are managing overseas and the number of 'glamourous managers' become tiny in comparison.

This isn't helped by clubs fast-tracking ex-pros with limited managerial experience into big clubs and seeing them fail (i.e. Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney). There are a lot of very good English managers out there but it would take a brave chairman to take a punt on the Rob Edwards / Kieran McKenna / Cowley brothers compared to taking the easy option.

If you look at the last 10 years of Managers who have won the Championship - you will see 3 things - they have all been given a chance to manage in the PL and/or have gone on to bigger clubs; 8 of the 10 are non-English; and, the two English managers who won the Championship - have both had long careers as PL managers.

14-15 - Eddie Howe
15-16 - Sean Dyche
16-17 - Rafa Benitez
17-18 - Nuno
18-19 - Daniel Farke
19-20 - Marcella Bielsa
20-21 - Daniel Farke (again)
21-22 - Marcos Silva
22-23 - Vincent Kompany
23-24 - Enzo Maresca


If any English manager in the Championship shows that they can deliver consistently good results - they would get PL opportunities. I just disagree that there are "a lot of very good English managers" right now. There may be many reasons why, and which the FA should address - but the results speak for themselves. But, its not a case where English managers have fewer opportunities than foreigners - its a case of fewer English managers deserving of limited opportunities.

 

[Johnny J]

Harry Kane unhappy with England squad withdrawals

Captain Harry Kane is unhappy with the number of players who have withdrawn from the latest England squad, insisting "England comes before club".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[UncleBuck]

Harry Kane unhappy with England squad withdrawals

Captain Harry Kane is unhappy with the number of players who have withdrawn from the latest England squad, insisting "England comes before club".

www.bbc.co.uk

I totally get H’s thinking as that’s how I used to think however….
This is what, the third international break this season already? All for what, a tournament that has been created out of friendlies to make more money for UEFA.
If I’m a player and I’m carrying a bit of a knock or if I need a break do I take the week out to recharge the batteries with the family or pack my bag to go to Athens for a game on Thursday with another game on Sunday?
All under the management of someone who won’t be in charge next month.
No thanks, think I’ll pass on that one and wait for Tuchel to come in.

 

[tommo84]

Harry Kane unhappy with England squad withdrawals

Captain Harry Kane is unhappy with the number of players who have withdrawn from the latest England squad, insisting "England comes before club".

www.bbc.co.uk

I’m a club before country man - I’m already far too emotionally invested in one team that wears white and repeatedly fails to live up to expectations - so I can’t say I agree with Kane. However, his attitude towards England is exactly what should be required from the England captain, and as his time with the armband winds down, tactical withdrawals should be taken into consideration when choosing his successor. We know Rice has got a broken toe so I’ve no qualms with his withdrawal, but Saka and one or two others have form for these withdrawals and that should count against them.

 

[Danners9]

As captain he has to say this sort of thing. But he also has a winter break to look forward to whereas the others don't.

And it's the third international break of the season. 11 Premier League games in and these will be the 5th and 6th Nations League B games.

Some players are genuinely injured, but others have more important league games to come so if they feel anything they are right to prioritise their health. Rodri was one of those talking about too many games and now he's out for the season.

Some countries have World Cup qualifiers now, fine, but this Nations League replaced friendlies and England are now in the second tier of it. It could and should - and probably is now as a result of the withdrawals - be used to try new players and tactics.

 

[Trix]

Interesting article
Just had a look at the championship and there are 12 English managers out of 24, 15 out of 24 in league one and 19 out of 24 in league two.
Definitely points to a lack of opportunity the higher you go up the food chain for English managers.

It's about money mate.

The richest clubs in the world appoint the best available managers. All the bigger clubs in Europe have foreign managers other than Juve I believe. Why? Because they can afford to. In the Premier league generally speaking the clubs are far richer than their European equivalents, and that filters down which means the quality of applicant for the roles is much higher and foreign managers with better CV's are attracted to the positions and apply.

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

Harry Kane unhappy with England squad withdrawals

Captain Harry Kane is unhappy with the number of players who have withdrawn from the latest England squad, insisting "England comes before club".

www.bbc.co.uk

I said in another thread really that a lot of the current England crop barring Kane do not have the same desire to play for their country and i suspect it could be a reason why they struggle to get over the line, that extra 1-2% that the more 'passionate' countries seem to have can make all the difference.

not saying that is solely the reason but you look at how the likes of Romero do there utmost to be fit to represent their country and then you look at the honours of those countries and it probably paints a bit of a picture.

 

[dontcallme]

It's an interesting one, chairmen and clubs in general look for previous success when appointing a new manager.

It's far easier to sell the idea of a new manager to a fanbase saying they've won the league in [random country] than say getting a mid-table championship team into the playoffs.

Now that's not to say it's easy to win the league with Ajax / PSG / Celtic etc... but it looks better on paper. Now flip that around and see how many English coaches are managing overseas and the number of 'glamourous managers' become tiny in comparison.

This isn't helped by clubs fast-tracking ex-pros with limited managerial experience into big clubs and seeing them fail (i.e. Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney). There are a lot of very good English managers out there but it would take a brave chairman to take a punt on the Rob Edwards / Kieran McKenna / Cowley brothers compared to taking the easy option.

Like players, managers need to look to joining the right clubs to get the bigger opportunities down the road.

Mcclaren did it at FC Twente and Gerrard at Rangers. Both put themselves In line for better jobs then their own performance put a stop to further progression.

Potter ruined his short term career prospects by joining Chelsea.

The opportunities are clearly there. The English managers just keep being a bit shit.

 

[muppetman]

Kane on the bench, which seems a bit odd for a game we need to win by two clear goals.

 

[Marty]

Weakest England XI since the 2014 World Cup?

 

[Yid-ol]

Weakest England XI since the 2014 World Cup?

In some places maybe, but the attacking options (wide 2, Bellingham and Watkins, if they all click will be good. I can see why he's gone with kane on the bench and more pace on the pitch. I rate Gordon and feel we needed him to play at the euros.

 

[Yid-ol]

Ref seems very card happy for the English players here.

 

[muppetman]

Booking Pickford for time wasting there?

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Booking Pickford for time wasting there?

I'm not watching, but Pickford should probably be booked every game for time wasting.

 

[Yid-ol]

Seems there are a few Lazer pens in the stands. Keep seeing it on English players.