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The England Thread

XIIIMPC

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2010
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Disasters? Seriously?

Capello had a 66.7% win record, Southgates was 59.8%

Also worth mentioning Capello had arguably the least talented squad compared to Southgate and Sven. Capellos squad for the 2010 world cup was

England's 30-man provisional squad​

Goalkeepers: Joe Hart, David James, Robert Green.

Defenders: Leighton Baines, Jamie Carragher, Ashley Cole, Michael Dawson, Rio Ferdinand, Glen Johnson, Ledley King, John Terry, Matthew Upson, Stephen Warnock.

Midfielders: Gareth Barry, Michael Carrick, Joe Cole, Steven Gerrard, Tom Huddlestone, Adam Johnson, Frank Lampard, Aaron Lennon, James Milner, Scott Parker, Theo Walcott, Shaun Wright-Phillips.

Forwards: Darren Bent, Peter Crouch, Jermain Defoe, Emile Heskey, Wayne Rooney.


Sven had a win record of 59.7% which is 0.1% better than Southgate. I loved Sven, and he had arguably a better squad overall than Southgate, especially the back 5.

To say both were a disaster though is absolute bollocks.

Only reason Southgate is regarded so highly is because he made it to 2 finals, which fair play is a small achievement but he still won the same as Capello and Sven.

wtf is this implication that Capello wasn't a disaster?

Capello qualified with authority and gave us the 1-4 win over Croatia, great. He then failed to manage the squad at 2010 with such devastating inadequacy that it would be regarded as one of the worst-run tournament camps ever if not for France being somehow worse in the same tournament. He was undoubtedly an excellent tactician, his career shows that, but there can't be any sanitising of how badly he handled that World Cup. He is the example of how a genius tactician not only doesn't guarantee success, it doesn't even guarantee a 5/10 performance. Southgate may be an inferior tactician to someone like Capello but his handling of tournament camps was largely terrific (though I think Euro 2024 was a tournament too far).

England had some world-class players in 2010 and a fortunate draw - the kind of "easy draw" that people have used to caveat everything Southgate did. I don't care for people's opinions about the specifics of the squad, the players there should have beaten USA and Algeria, and they should have beaten what would have been Ghana in Round 2. Then Uruguay in the QFs, fine, maybe they'd lose that or to Netherlands in the Semis. What they shouldn't have done - what there is no excuse for - is draw with Algeria, draw with the USA, finish second in the group and play against Germany with such complete tactical naivety that they get thrashed - because, yes, by the end Capello was so done that even the defensive solidity you would expect was thrown away in favour of a suicidal defensive line that was exposed again and again.

I do wonder if he'd have handled the 2012 Euros better having learned from his mistakes, but he screwed up on TV and that was that.

(E.G.:
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/16...ol-freak-capello-and-chaos-at-2010-world-cup/ )
 

WiganSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
17,913
36,884
I don’t really see an issue with the manager being foreign if Howe is not gettable. Potter may have been a good appointment but also a huge risk given how poorly he seemed to handle pressure at Chelsea. Given we’re allowed to do it why wouldn’t we try to get the best available.

However, at the same time id like to see UEFA mandate that coaches and back room staff must be of the same nationality of the players, with a few exceptions perhaps for some smaller nations. I think it would encourage associations to develop coaches as well as players which would hopefully result in more diversity of styles and approaches.
 

WiganSpur

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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Excellent, talented manager. Wrong appointment.

Even putting aside the fact that I don't believe foreigners should be allowed to manage any national side any more than you should be allowed to pick a foreign goalkeeper just because all of your own ones are crap, I see Tuchel in a similar way to how I saw Conte taking over at Spurs - a great manager in the right conditions but someone with an outspoken personality that has a track record of letting things boil over when he doesn't get his way. The rules do state that we can appoint a foreign manager, but a German? The English press will crucify him the milisecond things go even slightly wrong and he won't take kindly to it.

People need to stop getting so fixated on the "CV" when it comes to looking for the next England manager and lamenting the lack of top English managers in the game. There is a lack of top English managers at club level - international is completely different. What had De La Fuente achieved in the game before getting the Spain job and winning the Euros? What about Scaloni before winning the World Cup with Argentina? In fact, take a look at these two lists and count how many were also successful at club level in the last 30 odd years:


I'd say Del Bosque, Lippi and Mancini and that's it. The rest won top honours with countries but have had poor/non-existent club careers, while many successful club managers have completely failed at international level. For all we know, someone who has completely flopped or been underwhelming at club level like a Steven Gerrard, Frank Lampard, Scott Parker, Michael Carrick or even someone who's never had a managerial job like John Terry or Gareth Barry - might be far more successful at international level. I never bought into the whole "Southgate is the most successful England manager since Ramsey" thing but if you told me that the guy who's only experience of management was getting Middlesbrough relegated would take England to two finals and a semi then I'd have laughed at you.
If Howe doesn’t want it im not sure who the English options would be. Huge concerns about whether Potter could handle the pressure of the job and even whether it would be a good idea to throw him into that kind of situation.

Then after him there’s only Gary O’Neil, Will Still and Dyche who’ve proven themselves over multiple seasons at the top level (None of which im aware have coached youth teams at international level). And I’m not sure Still would have taken the job at this stage in his career. With Dyche and O’Neil there are perhaps concerns over style of play. Argentina and Spain don’t tend to have that conundrum and there is part of the problem.

I guess you are arguing that we should have appointed Carsley? It seems like we were willing to do that however the Greece game would have triggered understandable concerns about him being able to make tough decisions and handle the scrutiny of the job. In many ways the return of Bellingham and Foden was the acid test which he failed.
 

Marty

Audere est farce
Mar 10, 2005
43,037
73,223
I guess you are arguing that we should have appointed Carsley? It seems like we were willing to do that however the Greece game would have triggered understandable concerns about him being able to make tough decisions and handle the scrutiny of the job. In many ways the return of Bellingham and Foden was the acid test which he failed.
On this, if Tuchel told the truth, and we have no reason to doubt that, he signed the deal before the Greece game so that had no bearing on anything whatsoever
 

Gb160

Shit Show ticket tout
Jun 20, 2012
24,636
100,214
Don’t really get why he doesn’t start until January. Means we’ve got another 2 games of tactical gibberish coming up.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2003
10,364
13,490
Don’t really get why he doesn’t start until January. Means we’ve got another 2 games of tactical gibberish coming up.
This is what I don’t get, the timescales don’t quite stack up from when Southgate resigned.
I think they went after Klopp straight away but he turned them down as he didn’t want to work until January, they then opened it up to anyone else, they then found the next suitable manager but he also said he couldn’t start till January so they had to suck it up as Klopp took the RB gig in the interlude.
 

Frozen_Waffles

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2005
4,345
11,866
Meh, why not...

I'm not exactly over the moon with this because I think he's a bit of a nutcase. I was all for giving Carsley a shot until the Greece game (not that we got beat, but the team we put out).

But when you look at the options he's not a bad choice by any stretch and I couldn't stand Southgate.

However if I see a midfield of number 10s again then I'll give up. My only positive Southgate thing was that he generally played a set system and actually wasn't afraid to drop players.

It's international football, make it solid (a DM with Rice) and then have pace and width up top... simple. If he does that and more than anything else builds a team to get the best out of Kane I won't complain.

One thing I will say is that we do not have as good a squad as people think. Pickford is insane, Walker is on his way out, we have no left back and our CBs are not the best. Also we have no DM at present (though I'd play Gomes).

We have a great generation of players, but they all play in the same positon.
 

SUIYHA

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2017
1,947
9,503
Disasters? Seriously?

Capello had a 66.7% win record, Southgates was 59.8%

Also worth mentioning Capello had arguably the least talented squad compared to Southgate and Sven. Capellos squad for the 2010 world cup was

England's 30-man provisional squad​

Goalkeepers: Joe Hart, David James, Robert Green.

Defenders: Leighton Baines, Jamie Carragher, Ashley Cole, Michael Dawson, Rio Ferdinand, Glen Johnson, Ledley King, John Terry, Matthew Upson, Stephen Warnock.

Midfielders: Gareth Barry, Michael Carrick, Joe Cole, Steven Gerrard, Tom Huddlestone, Adam Johnson, Frank Lampard, Aaron Lennon, James Milner, Scott Parker, Theo Walcott, Shaun Wright-Phillips.

Forwards: Darren Bent, Peter Crouch, Jermain Defoe, Emile Heskey, Wayne Rooney.


Sven had a win record of 59.7% which is 0.1% better than Southgate. I loved Sven, and he had arguably a better squad overall than Southgate, especially the back 5.

To say both were a disaster though is absolute bollocks.

Only reason Southgate is regarded so highly is because he made it to 2 finals, which fair play is a small achievement but he still won the same as Capello and Sven.

Capello's record in qualifying with what I agree was a weak squad was good, but the 2010 World Cup was a debacle - make no mistake. If Allardyce or Taylor had played such painful to watch football with a flat 4-4-2, sticking Gerrard out on the left wing and starting Emile Heskey up front, finishing behind the USA in the group and only winning one game all tournament against Slovenia, they'd have been rightfully criticised as dinosaurs.

Sven - sorry but the man completely wasted the most talented and in-depth generation of players the country has ever produced. Zero ideas apart from trying to cram as many big name players into a rigid 4-4-2 as he possibly could, playing them out of position which meant getting the best out of none of them. To lose three times in a row to the same manager at the same stage is inexcusable, particularly given in those games we threw away leads twice, failed to create a chance to equalise against Brazil despite playing most of the second half against 10 men, and the Portugal side being much weaker on paper even if they had home advantage in 2004. He should have been sacked the moment he named the striker options for the 2006 squad.
 

Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
4,022
6,585
Hat trick for the England centre forward yesterday. Bayern won 4-0. Harold looked decidedly sprightly .
Must be a doddle for him , no doubt a lot weaker league than ours.
 

Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
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6,585
Don’t really get why he doesn’t start until January. Means we’ve got another 2 games of tactical gibberish coming up.
He says he wants to concentrate fully on the World Cup. Can someone tell him that if we do not beat Greece away by 2 goals , which is certainly not likely the way we are playing, then we will play a two legged play off in March in the nations League. More likely than not to happen,
 

muppetman

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2011
12,125
34,434
I wasn't entirely sure where to put this, but thought it was worth sharing. It's an article about the lack of English coaches with some data to back it up.

Tuchel's appointment highlights England's dismal failure to produce tip-top managers​

England's top division has only got three English managers. No English boss has won the Premier League. And no English coach has won the European Cup for 40+ years.​


Nick Harris
Oct 28, 2024
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The appointment this month of Thomas Tuchel as England’s next permanent manager highlighted again the dearth of high-quality English coaches.
There are only three English managers in the Premier League - Eddie Howe, Sean Dyche and Gary O’Neil - and if you add Graham Potter as another possible successor to Gareth Southgate, they still have a total of zero major trophies, combined.
That fact isn’t meant to disparage that quartet. But the Premier League doesn’t have much Englishness about it, and the 20 clubs mostly don’t fancy Englishmen in charge. They are largely owned by rich foreigners, the majority of the players are foreign, and so are most of the managers.
This has led to a systemic problem not just with the production of home-grown coaches but, vitally, with opportunities for up-and-comers in the top division.

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The stats are damning. No English manager has ever won the Premier League title. The last Englishman to win it was Howard Wilkinson in 1991-92 with Leeds in the year before the PL began, and the English winner before him was Howard Kendall with Everton in 1986-87.
By the end of this current season, that pair will be the only English managers to have won the English title in the past 40 years.
The last major English trophy of any kind won by an English manager was 16 years ago, the 2008 FA Cup, lifted by Portsmouth under Harry Redknapp. The Englishman before ‘Arry to manage an FA Cup win was Joe Royle with Everton in 1995.
The last English manager to win the the League Cup / EFL Cup was Steve McClaren in 2004 with Middlesbrough, and before him Brian Little in 1996 with Aston Villa.
It’s more than 40 years since Joe Fagan was the last Englishman to manage the winners of the European Cup / Champions League, which he did with Liverpool in 1984. It’s also more than 40 years since an English manager won the UEFA Cup / Europa League. Keith Burkinshaw, with Spurs, won that trophy in 1984.
Since 1984 the European Cup / CL has been won by coaches from Italy (11 times), Romania (once), Portugal (three times), the Netherlands (four times), Yugoslavia (once), Belgium (once), Germany (seven times), Scotland (twice), Spain (seven times) and France (three times).
On 18 occasions in the last 40 years the European Cup / CL-winning manager has been of a different nationality to the team he led to glory, illustrative of how well managers of other nationalities travel, relative to English managers.
A “manager audit” (graphic below) of the head coaches currently in charge of the 96 clubs in Europe’s “Big 5” divisions highlights the lack of Englishmen, including in England. There are 42 managers working outside their own countries across those 96 clubs. If you want a bigger version of the graphic, it’s in the PDF here:
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Managers At Big 96
956KB ∙ PDF file
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Some headline observations from this “audit”:
  • No fewer than 25% of all the ‘Big 5’ managers are Spanish, or 24 of the 96, including 15 working in La Liga and nine elsewhere, including five in the Premier League.
  • Italians are next best represented (19, with three outside Italy) then Germans (12, with three outside Germany), then Frenchmen (11, all in France).
  • There are just four English managers across the 96 clubs; the three in the Premier League mentioned above plus Liam Rosenior at Strasbourg. Those four become five if you count Belgian-born Lens manager Will Still as English.
  • Most of the “biggest” clubs in Europe have foreign managers. All of England’s “big six” clubs - Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Tottenham - have foreign managers. Spain’s biggest three clubs- Barcelona, Real Madrid and Atletico Madrid - have foreign managers, as do Germany’s “big two” Bayern and Dortmund plus reigning champions Leverkusen.
  • France’s three current leading teams - PSG, Monaco and Marseille - all have foreign managers. In Italy there are Italian managers at Juventus, Inter and Napoli but foreign managers at Milan and Roma.
UEFA published their most recent “European Club Talent and Competition Landscape” report last month (PDF to download below) and it included a 14-page section (pages 46-59) about the demographics, experience, mobility, and “lifespans” of head coaches, among much else.
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European Talent Landscape Sep 2024
27.7MB ∙ PDF file
Download
The head coaches section of the report includes the graphic below, which details the nationalities of coaches working abroad in the 2023-24 season. To be clear about definitions, these coaches either worked in one of 1,312 head coach / manager posts at top-division European clubs last season, or as manager of any national team (senior, not age group) anywhere in the world.
No fewer than 50 Spaniards were working outside Spain at top-flight European clubs, with another six in charge of national teams. The corresponding figures for Italians was 37 and eight; for Germans 24 and eight. There were a lot more Portuguese, Serbian, Croatian and Danish coaches working overseas at top-flight clubs last season than English coaches.


Since Tuchel’s appointment, I’ve noticed debates on social media and LinkedIn questioning whether the cost of obtaining a UEFA Pro Licence in England is prohibitive. That is the highest level of coaching qualification in European and mandatory for coaches to work in national leagues across the continent. It costs £13,700 in England, against €6,000 (£5,000) in Spain.
The most recent pan-European data on Pro Licences is from 2017, when there were 2,379 coaches with a Pro Licence in Spain, 861 in Germany, 826 in Italy, 586 in Portugal, 548 in Turkey, 391 in the Czech Republic and 383 in England. Per capita there are many more Pro Licence holders per head in Sweden, Norway, Scotland, Denmark, Croatia, Romania, the Netherlands and Serbia - among other places - than England.
I’m not convinced that pricing is the major issue. Rather it’s opportunity, or lack of it. For all the success of the Premier League as a global brand, it might be the wealth that accrues from that success that means there is more at stake financially than anywhere else. Thus patience is in short supply, and pretty much all clubs will go for experience (often foreign) over taking a chance on an upcoming Englishman.
Other football cultures, not least in Germany, encourage the development of home-grown coaches, who are more often handed opportunities.
Raphael Honigstein spoke well about this with Gary Lineker on a recent episode of The Rest is Football podcast. Raph echoed a lot of my own views, giving particular insight on his native country.
He said there was a pride in Germany that Tuchel had landed the England job, “There's another German manager in a top position. That reflects well on German football, reflects well on German coaching,” he said.
“Why is it that Germany are producing currently so many top coaches? There are a few reasons. First, you can be an under-23 coach, and then you'll be given the chance to actually coach a Bundesliga side. Without that chance, Tuchel might still be somewhere in the under-23s.
“Not only do we produce coaches, but we produce the environment, the ability for coaches to progress and be seen. That is, I think, totally key. Tuchel was an under-23 coach who got a job at Mainz, Nagelsmann was under-23 coach at Hoffenheim, and got the senior job at Hoffenheim.
“[Domenico] Tedesco is another one [who progressed to senior roles via youth coaching]. We have, I think, openness and people taking a chance on coaches like that.
“Then, of course, they still have to do well. They still have to show that they know what they're doing. And I think they know what they're doing because they are obsessed workers. These are people who, 24 hours a day, think about football, work on training practices, watch the games back three or four times, try to come up with new ideas, try to find an edge.
“And they do so because, again, in their clubs, they would have come for a system where you cannot simply buy three or four players to improve the team. The improvement has to come more often than not through the coaching. That is your real edge.
“So it's a different culture. And the third reason is that I think they have grown up in the model where you have shared responsibilities. They're coaches rather than managers.”
So why doesn't England produce these kind of coaches?
“I think it's because of the way the Premier League works. I think the Premier League is a league that attracts the best players from all of the world. And it's just easy to say who has won the league in Germany, who has won the league in Portugal, rather than getting, as used to be the case, somebody from Scotland or somebody who's just done really well in the Championship.
“It just doesn't have that natural progression for English coaches. When was the last time that you heard about an under-23 or a youth coach being promoted to senior job in English football?
”It just doesn't happen. So these coaches, they don't really have the ability to learn on the job. It's very, very difficult if you have a lot of supply, but no real demand, no real possibility to grow as a coach, to keep progressing in an orderly fashion, it's hard.”

This piece is one of numerous articles on this site that is free to read for everyone. But the work of the Sportingintelligence Substack, not least investigative pieces on the smoke & mirrors of Man City’s legal battles, the true scale of match-fixing in England, the ‘Skyfall’ series on drugs in British cycling, part 1 of 5 here, match-fixing in tennis, and much else, is unsustainable without paid subscriber support. It’s $7 a month, or £5.39, which is less than the price of a pint. Try it and read everything. And if you’re not getting value for month, unsubscribe. Thanks!


 

Westmorlandspur

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2013
4,022
6,585
Just the 8 withdrawals from the England squad today. Foden, Palmer, Saka , Rice, Colwill, Ramsdale, Trent, Grealish. Morgan Rogers, Bowen, Branthwaite, James Trafford called up.
Who said the Nations League was important.
Interesting line up on Thursday Upcoming.
 
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