The England Thread

[WiganSpur]

Nah.

We weren’t great at the last tournament but he isn’t accidentally one of our most successful managers.

There’s a real need to shit on the last guy, but it’s just not needed.

Prior to Southgate we’d really, really underperformed. Southgate’s underperforming was making finals but not winning them which is a different thing.

I didn’t like the football that Southgate produced at the end but it’ll take more than a hard fought win over Finland for me to believe things are very different.

But the fact is throughout Southgate's reign the quality of player available to him improved. He did well in 2018 with a crap squad and since then has performed to or worse than expectations. It's also fair to say he's had some very lucky draws in 2018, 2024 and arguably 2020. I agree that previous managers have failed with golden generations but that doesn't mean Southgate is any good. He created a positive culture and that's it.

He should have been relieved of his duties after the 4-0 loss to Hungary or after Qatar.

 

[muppetman]

But the fact is throughout Southgate's reign the quality of player available to him improved. He did well in 2018 with a crap squad and since then has performed to or worse than expectations. It's also fair to say he's had some very lucky draws in 2018, 2024 and arguably 2020. I agree that previous managers have failed with golden generations but that doesn't mean Southgate is any good. He created a positive culture and that's it.

He should have been relieved of his duties after the 4-0 loss to Hungary or after Qatar.

Every England manager that I can remember (and I’m 51) has had a great squad of players to pull from.

So either every single manager other than maybe El Tel for a very short time and Bobby Robson also for quite a short time underperformed or maybe we overrate English talent.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

All that is simply correlated to the quality of the players available. I'll give Southgate his dues on creating a positive culture but that's about all he's done that's been beneficial. It was an important step that needed to be made but he had far outstayed his welcome. He couldn't coach and didn't seem to be smart enough at any stage to overhaul his coaching set up and delegate. We were dire at the Euros bar one half against the Netherlands and relied exclusively on individual brilliance and set pieces for the most part.

He also had a huge influence on the quality of player coming through the setup as well. Due to his work with the FA prior to taking jobs with the England u21s and obviously the senior side. Completely overhauling the FA coaching philosophy, emphasising technical development and possession based tactical learning.

I definitely think he was found wanting making in-game tactical decisions but you’re spot on how important it was developing a positive culture playing for England. That camaraderie and pride playing for England took them the furthest we had been in successive tournaments since ‘66. I remember watching England teams play when I was younger that just looked shit scared to have the ball, world class players seemingly melting under the pressure of wearing the England shirt. The last tournament aside, I think Southgate’s teams played with a confidence and pride that meant we beat the teams we expected to beat (which wasn’t always the case in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s).

I disagree that we simply got far in tournaments because of the quality of player available. As England have always had good players, or players that should have at least got to the latter stages of tournaments more regularly. But we struggled to do that under previous managers as they never managed to develop the culture to make the players feel comfortable at international level.

 

[WiganSpur]

He also had a huge influence on the quality of player coming through the setup as well. Due to his work with the FA prior to taking jobs with the England u21s and obviously the senior side. Completely overhauling the FA coaching philosophy, emphasising technical development and possession based tactical learning.

I definitely think he was found wanting making in-game tactical decisions but you’re spot on how important it was developing a positive culture playing for England. That camaraderie and pride playing for England took them the furthest we had been in successive tournaments since ‘66. I remember watching England teams play when I was younger that just looked shit scared to have the ball, world class players seemingly melting under the pressure of wearing the England shirt. The last tournament aside, I think Southgate’s teams played with a confidence and pride that meant we beat the teams we expected to beat (which wasn’t always the case in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s).

I disagree that we simply got far in tournaments because of the quality of player available. As England have always had good players, or players that should have at least got to the latter stages of tournaments more regularly. But we struggled to do that under previous managers as they never managed to develop the culture to make the players feel comfortable at international level.

Yes I agree with most of that. But it just made his selection decisions and tactics all the more frustrating. The annoying thing is that is the easy bit at international level, but he was poor at it. Southgate was good at getting the best out of the players off the pitch but terrible at getting the best out of them on it. He created a positive culture free of the psychological pressure but then kept the tactical shackles on which stopped him reaping most of the benefits of that.

The biggest question mark over Carsley will be how tough and resilient we will be mentally in the major tournaments.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I think swapping Foden for Grealish is easy, Bellingham less so I agree. And there may be pressure but to be honest I think 90% of England fans would be very happy to see one of them dropped if it meant the football was a lot better. We've had it loads over the years with Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes etc.

If he gets pelters for leaving one of Foden or Bellingham out then the simple question is "Go on then where would you play them?"

I disagree with 90% of England fans. Many are of the view that if you’re a good manager you can make it work with the world class players at your disposable.

I agree that Bellingham is part of the problem though. He has turned into Dele Alli - a player who can’t play deeper in midfield as he has no interest in controlling a match and would rather play in moments. And he isn’t creative or smart enough to play as a true number 10. He’s a second striker but that means we have to sacrifice midfield control as he doesn’t drop in and help us control from that position, preferring to be the hero and provide decisive moments.

 

[WiganSpur]

I disagree with 90% of England fans. Many are of the view that if you’re a good manager you can make it work with the world class players at your disposable.

I agree that Bellingham is part of the problem though. He has turned into Dele Alli - a player who can’t play deeper in midfield as he has no interest in controlling a match and would rather play in moments. And he isn’t creative or smart enough to play as a true number 10. He’s a second striker but that means we have to sacrifice midfield control as he doesn’t drop in and help us control from that position, preferring to be the hero and provide decisive moments.

He is an unbelievable player but from what i've seen of Carsley's system so far I struggle to see exactly where he fits. It would seem one spot is for progressive passers like Mainoo, Wharton, Gomes and the other more of an athletic runner like Rice or Gallagher. And you get the feeling if you put Foden in a more progressive system as a number 10 being fed by a progressive passer then he will shine.

Bellingham could potentially play the Rice role, but I think he would start to get annoyed by that and lose his discipline, venturing too far forward imo.

 

[TheDoc]

Every England manager that I can remember (and I’m 51) has had a great squad of players to pull from.

So either every single manager other than maybe El Tel for a very short time and Bobby Robson also for quite a short time underperformed or maybe we overrate English talent.

I think Roy Hodgson may respectfully disagree...

 

[Frank Blank]

Er, but was the sum greater than its constituent parts?

Bless 'em, what an absolutely minging team to put together.

 

[bubble07]

Carsley ball. He is not doing anything special but he is fundamentally just not Gareth Southgate. His selections are common sense. Just fucking basics like playing two proper wingers when you have inverted full backs, and putting a proper complement to Rice next to him. Have Gomes picking up the ball, and have Rice doing the shuttling and pressing etc.

It's not difficult stuff. Not sure how Southgate managed to make a dog's breakfast of it.

Let's see what he does when foden Bellingham and Palmer are back

 

[rossdapep]

I've always found it odd when international coaches cram as many brilliant players in as possible.

It's not like club football, you aren't going to get players or agents running off to the owner, they quite simply have to accept it. Even if they show dissent or spit their dummy out, the media will slaughter them because they are there to represent their country and its a privilege.

Much much easier to have your defined system and make sure you fit players that work well within it. If some don't fit, they can still have a big role off the bench.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

He is an unbelievable player but from what i've seen of Carsley's system so far I struggle to see exactly where he fits. It would seem one spot is for progressive passers like Mainoo, Wharton, Gomes and the other more of an athletic runner like Rice or Gallagher. And you get the feeling if you put Foden in a more progressive system as a number 10 being fed by a progressive passer then he will shine.

Bellingham could potentially play the Rice role, but I think he would start to get annoyed by that and lose his discipline, venturing too far forward imo.

If Carsley wants to continue with Gomes in front of the defence, which I think he does, it will be Rice who is out. Not in the same class as those other players.
We need a midfield 3 who can compare to those top teams who beat us recently. Croatia, Italy, France, Spain. Rice is nowhere near it . No doubt people want him in because he tries hard and runs around a lot.
In reality he is a converted centre half at 19 yrs old by Moyes.
Nothing to do with Arsenal. He is not a top midfield player.

 

[easley91]

Impressed by Angel Gomes and he's only 24, right? Definitely adds another option in midfield.

 

[Cochise]

In the post game interview I think Kane basically said that Carsley has come in and told them to play with confidence and to express themselves. I know it was only Finland and the Republic of Ireland, but the approach play and movement off the ball was much better than anything we've seen over the last few years.

Now that might be down to Carsley but also the change in personel. Gordon on the left made so much sense to all of us in the summer except Southgate and he was great in these two games. Equally, the midfield was balanced and with the correct usage of TAA we played through the lines to our forward players. Kane was not isolated and when he did come deep the rest of the players made the most of the space he left.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

If Carsley wants to continue with Gomes in front of the defence, which I think he does, it will be Rice who is out. Not in the same class as those other players.
We need a midfield 3 who can compare to those top teams who beat us recently. Croatia, Italy, France, Spain. Rice is nowhere near it . No doubt people want him in because he tries hard and runs around a lot.
In reality he is a converted centre half at 19 yrs old by Moyes.
Nothing to do with Arsenal. He is not a top midfield player.

Nah. You need Rice in there to stop quick transitions when we lose the ball. Gomez is more of a deep lying playmaker in the Jorginho mode. Without a more high energy defensive player next to him to press and stop the opposition running through us Gomez would be easily bypassed and leave us wide open.

 

[luRRka]

Athletic reporting solanke has made the squad after 7 years out. Maddison seems to have missed out again which is both bizarre as a selection but good for tottenham.

 

[Trix]

Athletic reporting solanke has made the squad after 7 years out. Maddison seems to have missed out again which is both bizarre as a selection but good for tottenham.

Madison is facing far stiffer competition than Solanke is.

 

[NickHSpurs]

Surprised Morgan Rogers isn't in, he's been absolutely flying.

 

[Trix]

Surprised Morgan Rogers isn't in, he's been absolutely flying.

Really?

He's 22 and has made 11 starts in the Prem and only 26 at lower league levels (49 total including cups). He's a long way off ousting other senior players despite recent good form. As I said earlier in the thread all he is atm is flavour of the month based on 6-7 games, and he is up against some real serious players for his position as far as England goes.

 

[Cochise]

I think it's going to be interesting to see how the midfield situation plays out. In the last game with Gomes sitting deep and dictating we looked good but now the pundits are expecting us to cram Rice, Bellingham and Palmer all into the same midfield.

It's almost like those pundits that played in the era of the great Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes debacle have forgotten how England never looked balanced.

 

[Thenewcat]

I think it's going to be interesting to see how the midfield situation plays out. In the last game with Gomes sitting deep and dictating we looked good but now the pundits are expecting us to cram Rice, Bellingham and Palmer all into the same midfield.

It's almost like those pundits that played in the era of the great Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes debacle have forgotten how England never looked balanced.

I was a heavy critic of Southgate for playing to our weaknesses and insisting on playing two holding midfielders. I don’t think it’s remotely comparable to the lampard, gerrard scholes situation because they were 3 players who wanted to play in the same position. Rice as a 4, Bellingham as an 8 and Palmer as a 10 might be attacking but they are still in positions that are natural for them