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The Defence

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
Defences win titles...

I don't post on here often but after possibly the most depressing loss of the season so far, I feel the need to vent and express my opinion as to the real reason we're experiencing this poor run of results and the main weakness of this potentially great Spurs team.

Early on in the season, we were attacking with flair and freedom, scoring lots of goals, and winning games with good football. The pundits were singing our praises and we were allegedly 'the best team in London'.

Now the goals have dried up, the real weakness of our team has been exposed. Our defence, or lack of, is leaking goals left right and centre. We conceded 5 against Arsenal, another 3 against Man Utd, we've let in 8 in total against Man City. Another 5 against Chelsea today. Even the 2 against Norwich should have been avoided (City exposed them as the team they are yesterday...) Winning teams just don't leak goals like we do. Our team now is undoubtedly better than the 2010 team that qualified for the Champions League on paper but we qualified that year because we defended well.

Who or what is to blame? A small part bad luck, a large part bad coaching and management. Let's start with the coaching... I'm sure I'm not alone that I assume the worst every time opponents have a set piece. We don't defend them well, and our back 4 always seems disorganised and unsure of themselves in open play. Today was a clear example, Mata was threading balls through our defence and the Chelsea players were running past our two centre halves and fullbacks like they weren't even there.

As for the luck and management, we've been very unlucky that our two best centre halves are injured (Dawson and Kaboul) but we should not have been left short of decent replacements. It's been clear in these last few games that King and Gallas are past their best, but what was the point of bringing in Nelson if no faith is to be shown in him? We have a good young Centre Half in Caulker, but are unable to recall him. This will be controversial I know, but Bassong was loaned out and was actually a big part of the solid defensive partnership formed with Dawson in the 2010 season - perhaps with consistent games he could have retained that level of form.

Why is it that Utd can cope without their talisman Vidic and/or Ferdinand? Because they have good backups, and good, solid coaching. Their team on paper is in no way the best in the premier league but they're still top. They have 18 clean sheets (4 more than City) and it's that solid base that allows their attacking players to play with confidence, which no doubt contributes to their clinical finishing.

Our twelve (still arguably, not bad) clean sheets this season may be a stat one can use to argue against our shoddy defence but lets not forget that we're a team that largely dominates possession. If the opponent doesn't have the ball, they can't attack us, but when they do, we invariably look shaky. This in turn affects the mindset of the whole team and confidence drops hence the contrast in our and Utd's fortunes.

I pray for Mourinho (best case...) or any other defensive minded manager to be our next manager as our attack I believe can take care of itself. We have enough flair in Bale, Modric, Lennon, VDV, Adebayor to hurt any team. Players like them can be left to 'just facking run around a bit' but defences can't. They need to be organised, disciplined and work as a unit. Only when we sort out our defence will we have a chance of winning title.
 

Wirral Spurs

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2009
958
1,386
Defences win titles...

I don't post on here often but after possibly the most depressing loss of the season so far, I feel the need to vent and express my opinion as to the real reason we're experiencing this poor run of results and the main weakness of this potentially great Spurs team.

Early on in the season, we were attacking with flair and freedom, scoring lots of goals, and winning games with good football. The pundits were singing our praises and we were allegedly 'the best team in London'.

Now the goals have dried up, the real weakness of our team has been exposed. Our defence, or lack of, is leaking goals left right and centre. We conceded 5 against Arsenal, another 3 against Man Utd, we've let in 8 in total against Man City. Another 5 against Chelsea today. Even the 2 against Norwich should have been avoided (City exposed them as the team they are yesterday...) Winning teams just don't leak goals like we do. Our team now is undoubtedly better than the 2010 team that qualified for the Champions League on paper but we qualified that year because we defended well.

Who or what is to blame? A small part bad luck, a large part bad coaching and management. Let's start with the coaching... I'm sure I'm not alone that I assume the worst every time opponents have a set piece. We don't defend them well, and our back 4 always seems disorganised and unsure of themselves in open play. Today was a clear example, Mata was threading balls through our defence and the Chelsea players were running past our two centre halves and fullbacks like they weren't even there.

As for the luck and management, we've been very unlucky that our two best centre halves are injured (Dawson and Kaboul) but we should not have been left short of decent replacements. It's been clear in these last few games that King and Gallas are past their best, but what was the point of bringing in Nelson if no faith is to be shown in him? We have a good young Centre Half in Caulker, but are unable to recall him. This will be controversial I know, but Bassong was loaned out and was actually a big part of the solid defensive partnership formed with Dawson in the 2010 season - perhaps with consistent games he could have retained that level of form.

Why is it that Utd can cope without their talisman Vidic and/or Ferdinand? Because they have good backups, and good, solid coaching. Their team on paper is in no way the best in the premier league but they're still top. They have 18 clean sheets (4 more than City) and it's that solid base that allows their attacking players to play with confidence, which no doubt contributes to their clinical finishing.

Our twelve (still arguably, not bad) clean sheets this season may be a stat one can use to argue against our shoddy defence but lets not forget that we're a team that largely dominates possession. If the opponent doesn't have the ball, they can't attack us, but when they do, we invariably look shaky. This in turn affects the mindset of the whole team and confidence drops hence the contrast in our and Utd's fortunes.

I pray for Mourinho (best case...) or any other defensive minded manager to be our next manager as our attack I believe can take care of itself. We have enough flair in Bale, Modric, Lennon, VDV, Adebayor to hurt any team. Players like them can be left to 'just facking run around a bit' but defences can't. They need to be organised, disciplined and work as a unit. Only when we sort out our defence will we have a chance of winning title.
Excellent post
 

cookiemonster

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2005
2,715
5,834
Mate......we haven't a decent defence for a long long time

To win titles,the benchmark is to concede less than one goal per game....the last time we did that was in 1970-71
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
Mate......we haven't a decent defence for a long long time

To win titles,the benchmark is to concede less than one goal per game....the last time we did that was in 1970-71
That's my point. Although we did defend well throughout the 09/10 season, hence we qualified for Champions League and Dawson was voted player of the season. Perhaps the appointment of someone like O'Neill would be a good move, I doubt he would kill off the attacking intentions of our best players, but he would certainly sort out our back 4.
 

cookiemonster

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2005
2,715
5,834
That's my point. Although we did defend well throughout the 09/10 season, hence we qualified for Champions League and Dawson was voted player of the season. Perhaps the appointment of someone like O'Neill would be a good move, I doubt he would kill off the attacking intentions of our best players, but he would certainly sort out our back 4.

True....but building a defence takes time and i have a feeling some of our fans will not have the patience

You know....the ones that will take a 4-3 win over 1-0

Me...1-0 everytime ...that's the result that will win you titles
 

Kingstheman

No longer BSoDL
Mar 13, 2006
5,831
2,991
I cannot remember a season in which we have threatened to be so good and yet have been thrashed so often.

It is a complete contradiction.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
True....but building a defence takes time and i have a feeling some of our fans will not have the patience

You know....the ones that will take a 4-3 win over 1-0

Me...1-0 everytime ...that's the result that will win you titles
Does building a defence really take that much time? In that case it's amazing how quickly defensive minded coaches manage to go to new clubs and turn them into teams that are difficult to score against. See Mourinho 1st season at Chelsea as an example, or O'Neill at Villa and taking over Sunderland recently.

But I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 1-0 thing.
 

kishman

Well-Known Member
Apr 22, 2005
10,575
771
Great post mate.

Just to add, our poor defensive record this season has coincided with King's poor run of form. He is not the same player anymore. Before the City game we were unbeatable with King playing but since then it's the complete opposite. I'm devastated for Ledley.
 

Kingstheman

No longer BSoDL
Mar 13, 2006
5,831
2,991
Great post mate.

Just to add, our poor defensive record this season has coincided with King's poor run of form. He is not the same player anymore. Before the City game we were unbeatable with King playing but since then it's the complete opposite. I'm devastated for Ledley.

Yes, me too.

A colossus brought low, where was the the man to step up along side him?
 

cookiemonster

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2005
2,715
5,834
Does building a defence really take that much time? In that case it's amazing how quickly defensive minded coaches manage to go to new clubs and turn them into teams that are difficult to score against. See Mourinho 1st season at Chelsea as an example, or O'Neill at Villa and taking over Sunderland recently.

But I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 1-0 thing.

Think it does mate

The best defence IMO is Graham's Arsenal and it took him at least a couple of season to wrok it to perfection

Everyday working on the training pitch working on the system over and over again

Shame he couldn't do the same with us
 

shaqTHFC

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
1,546
807
Defences win titles...

I don't post on here often but after possibly the most depressing loss of the season so far, I feel the need to vent and express my opinion as to the real reason we're experiencing this poor run of results and the main weakness of this potentially great Spurs team.

Early on in the season, we were attacking with flair and freedom, scoring lots of goals, and winning games with good football. The pundits were singing our praises and we were allegedly 'the best team in London'.

Now the goals have dried up, the real weakness of our team has been exposed. Our defence, or lack of, is leaking goals left right and centre. We conceded 5 against Arsenal, another 3 against Man Utd, we've let in 8 in total against Man City. Another 5 against Chelsea today. Even the 2 against Norwich should have been avoided (City exposed them as the team they are yesterday...) Winning teams just don't leak goals like we do. Our team now is undoubtedly better than the 2010 team that qualified for the Champions League on paper but we qualified that year because we defended well.

Who or what is to blame? A small part bad luck, a large part bad coaching and management. Let's start with the coaching... I'm sure I'm not alone that I assume the worst every time opponents have a set piece. We don't defend them well, and our back 4 always seems disorganised and unsure of themselves in open play. Today was a clear example, Mata was threading balls through our defence and the Chelsea players were running past our two centre halves and fullbacks like they weren't even there.

As for the luck and management, we've been very unlucky that our two best centre halves are injured (Dawson and Kaboul) but we should not have been left short of decent replacements. It's been clear in these last few games that King and Gallas are past their best, but what was the point of bringing in Nelson if no faith is to be shown in him? We have a good young Centre Half in Caulker, but are unable to recall him. This will be controversial I know, but Bassong was loaned out and was actually a big part of the solid defensive partnership formed with Dawson in the 2010 season - perhaps with consistent games he could have retained that level of form.

Why is it that Utd can cope without their talisman Vidic and/or Ferdinand? Because they have good backups, and good, solid coaching. Their team on paper is in no way the best in the premier league but they're still top. They have 18 clean sheets (4 more than City) and it's that solid base that allows their attacking players to play with confidence, which no doubt contributes to their clinical finishing.

Our twelve (still arguably, not bad) clean sheets this season may be a stat one can use to argue against our shoddy defence but lets not forget that we're a team that largely dominates possession. If the opponent doesn't have the ball, they can't attack us, but when they do, we invariably look shaky. This in turn affects the mindset of the whole team and confidence drops hence the contrast in our and Utd's fortunes.

I pray for Mourinho (best case...) or any other defensive minded manager to be our next manager as our attack I believe can take care of itself. We have enough flair in Bale, Modric, Lennon, VDV, Adebayor to hurt any team. Players like them can be left to 'just facking run around a bit' but defences can't. They need to be organised, disciplined and work as a unit. Only when we sort out our defence will we have a chance of winning title.

I agree 100%. We need a manager who will instill organisation and work rate in our players as well as a winning mentality. No matter who we end up getting, are we really going to have someone who decides to play route one football with the players we have. Harry isn't that great tactically yet we've played some brilliant attacking football this season, and I doubt that's all down to his coaching.
 

lillywhites61

SC Supporter
Aug 11, 2009
3,538
2,270
I agree with your post mate, I have started to think back to days of old again defensively, we look very shaky at set pieces. Ledley has had his day now, Gallas not far behind, we should have bought Cahill, him and kaboul would have been a great pairing. It's time to rebuild starting with the cb's. Benni is good and walker has promise, but you cannot swap and change your cb pairing as often as we do and expect it to work.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
Great post mate.

Just to add, our poor defensive record this season has coincided with King's poor run of form. He is not the same player anymore. Before the City game we were unbeatable with King playing but since then it's the complete opposite. I'm devastated for Ledley.
Me too. And I refuse to blame Ledley for anything. I've no doubt that he contributes as much as any coach to our defensive organisation when he's on the pitch. However, the manager picks the team and it's been clear for a while that King's not the force he was. He is no longer fit to even train for heaven's sake, surely the writing was on the wall when things got to that stage... Even earlier this season, Kaboul was the standout centre half in that partnership.... but where's the cover? Out on loan...
 

tommyt

SC Supporter
Jul 22, 2005
6,166
10,978
Does building a defence really take that much time? In that case it's amazing how quickly defensive minded coaches manage to go to new clubs and turn them into teams that are difficult to score against. See Mourinho 1st season at Chelsea as an example, or O'Neill at Villa and taking over Sunderland recently.

But I agree wholeheartedly with you on the 1-0 thing.


We have defenders and a decent defence - but they're injured.
 

gilzeantheking

SC Supporter
Jun 16, 2011
6,612
19,600
I agree 100%. We need a manager who will instill organisation and work rate in our players as well as a winning mentality. No matter who we end up getting, are we really going to have someone who decides to play route one football with the players we have. Harry isn't that great tactically yet we've played some brilliant attacking football this season, and I doubt that's all down to his coaching.

I couldn't agree more. We have lacked discipline and organisation in our defence for years. We have some wonderful flair players who I'm sure would excel under most managers. If our defence i not being coached or drilled in the art of defending then the coaching staff we have at the moment need replacing. Pronto.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
We have defenders and a decent defence - but they're injured.

Yes, we've been a bit unlucky with injuries. So have City, Utd and Arsenal, but with better coaching couldn't our backup be adequate? Look at how Johnny Evans has stepped up to the plate for Utd... Whoever they bring in does a job. There must be a reason why they have 18 clean sheets and therefore are ever present title contenders.
 

cookiemonster

Well-Known Member
Dec 29, 2005
2,715
5,834
Yes, me too.

A colossus brought low, where was the the man to step up along side him?[/quot

It's not about a individual player

It's about a back four that has a understanding of each other and the ability to defend properly as a unit

I mean Bould Dixon Winterburn are not the best palyers in their position at that time i.e they were not England regulars,but what they do is they know what the scope of their job is and they do it brillantly

We have top individual defenders and keepers in our time.ie King Campbell England Gough Jennings Clemence but somehow have never been able to produce a solid defensive unit
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2010
30,006
29,551
Think it does mate

The best defence IMO is Graham's Arsenal and it took him at least a couple of season to wrok it to perfection

Everyday working on the training pitch working on the system over and over again

Shame he couldn't do the same with us
He was always working on the defence in training listening to him Goals on Sunday was amazing despite him being a arse, he would constantly working on that back line sorting out their positioning and where they should be standing. He would freeze training matches and go up to a defender and say you should be there not here

Do we have a defensive coach?
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
That Arsenal defence you quote was admirable. Despite it being those wankers, I actually like listening to Dixon describe the defensive discipline they had and how they were coached to work as a unit on MOTD. Something I wish we could do more of.

Moving forward, another example is the invincibles team of 03/04 which was two-fold: the defence that Wenger inherited from Graham, plus his own attacking brand of football and the brilliance of players like Bergkamp and Henry. Without that defence, there's no way that they'd have gone a season unbeaten, which is why Wenger hasn't been able to emulate that since. The back line was George Graham's. Winning starts with not losing.
 
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