The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - The Weekend Edition 8/9th June 2013

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atoubasrightfoot

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Agree if we had signed those three we almost certainly have got UCL but we didn't get them and with it top four.
We dont take risks enough IMO we are far too cautious with our money and take far too long to complete deals.
We do seem to drag our transfers out before concluding. Levy is a busy man, he has rubbed other chairman up the wrong way. I suspect the appointment of Baldini would possibly lead to more efficient transfers, with Baldini conducting the deal operating on Levi's parameters. Levy could concentrate more on the business side of the club.
 

xtrac

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The big difference is that ManU can afford to take bigger risks than us. Financially ManU are from another dimension compared to us.
I fail to see what the risk was, or would of been in the last 3 years, we were in a prime position to cement CL football for the foreseable future, it wasnt a case of costing us our PL future and plunghing us into the relegation mire!!

The frustrating thing is Arse have had a torrid 3 years, we failed to capitalize!
Chelski had a indifferent couple of seasons, we failed to capatilize on this!!
Citeh at the time we were in the CL were building a million dollar side, we failed to secure CL 2 seasons running by not investing, allowing them to pip us at the post again by small margins!!

To suggest spending £20-£30m on a quality striker when we had the likes of Modric VDV etc was a risk is laughable, as quite clearly missing out on CL is an even bigger risk that DL gambled on and lost circa £100m plus over the last 3 years!!!

Unfortunately for us, Arse have spending power this season, Chelski have mouriniho back and money to burn, Citeh are gone invest heavily in there new manager, and dare i say it Liverpool are gonna be very strong next year with more investment!!

So imho we missed a opportunity, and to be honest i cant see us breaking the cycle of recent TW's.
 

jair1970

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I think the whole idea that Andre identified players whose values increased and so is some kind of transfer genius laughable.

Pointing out high valued players or players he's previously worked with who then realise big money when channeled through the Russian money clubs merely points out a supply line that we're not part of. If we interrupt that supply line, which is unlikely given our lack of clout, then we don't benefit from it, we merely divert desired players into our squad, something we've failed to do.

So if Levy is impressed that Andre has identified expensive players who have made expensive transfers and read that as a method of profit making, then i'll be mightily surprised.
 

mill

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I think the whole idea that Andre identified players whose values increased and so is some kind of transfer genius laughable.

Pointing out high valued players or players he's previously worked with who then realise big money when channeled through the Russian money clubs merely points out a supply line that we're not part of. If we interrupt that supply line, which is unlikely given our lack of clout, then we don't benefit from it, we merely divert desired players into our squad, something we've failed to do.

So if Levy is impressed that Andre has identified expensive players who have made expensive transfers and read that as a method of profit making, then i'll be mightily surprised.
I haven't read anyone calling him a transfer 'genius' as you've put it just pointing out that his targets were successful, you should write for a tabloid with that kind of sensationalism
 

tom4s

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I fail to see what the risk was, or would of been in the last 3 years, we were in a prime position to cement CL football for the foreseable future, it wasnt a case of costing us our PL future and plunghing us into the relegation mire!!

The frustrating thing is Arse have had a torrid 3 years, we failed to capitalize!
Chelski had a indifferent couple of seasons, we failed to capatilize on this!!
Citeh at the time we were in the CL were building a million dollar side, we failed to secure CL 2 seasons running by not investing, allowing them to pip us at the post again by small margins!!

To suggest spending £20-£30m on a quality striker when we had the likes of Modric VDV etc was a risk is laughable, as quite clearly missing out on CL is an even bigger risk that DL gambled on and lost circa £100m plus over the last 3 years!!!

Unfortunately for us, Arse have spending power this season, Chelski have mouriniho back and money to burn, Citeh are gone invest heavily in there new manager, and dare i say it Liverpool are gonna be very strong next year with more investment!!

So imho we missed a opportunity, and to be honest i cant see us breaking the cycle of recent TW's.
Agree completely that we failed to capitalise on our positions by not spending when we should have. But when we buy big we need to be more sure on sell-on-value than ManU need to be. There is no player we can buy that will automatically guarantee us CL overnight, and we simply cant afford to take a 50 mil hit like ManU actually can.
 

greaves

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I fail to see what the risk was, or would of been in the last 3 years, we were in a prime position to cement CL football for the foreseable future, it wasnt a case of costing us our PL future and plunghing us into the relegation mire!!

The frustrating thing is Arse have had a torrid 3 years, we failed to capitalize!
Chelski had a indifferent couple of seasons, we failed to capatilize on this!!
Citeh at the time we were in the CL were building a million dollar side, we failed to secure CL 2 seasons running by not investing, allowing them to pip us at the post again by small margins!!

To suggest spending £20-£30m on a quality striker when we had the likes of Modric VDV etc was a risk is laughable, as quite clearly missing out on CL is an even bigger risk that DL gambled on and lost circa £100m plus over the last 3 years!!!

Unfortunately for us, Arse have spending power this season, Chelski have mouriniho back and money to burn, Citeh are gone invest heavily in there new manager, and dare i say it Liverpool are gonna be very strong next year with more investment!!

So imho we missed a opportunity, and to be honest i cant see us breaking the cycle of recent TW's.

We have missed out on the (Grail of) CL football by the slimmest of margins this last two seasons. If clubs with much better resources than us (I'm thinking Chelsea two years ago, Arsenal this season just gone) cannot make a better fist of it themselves (and I'm not going down the road of critiquing their individual managers), then it suggests that buying an 'expensive' player or two or three is not going to be a guarantee for any football club to achieve that status. The fact is, football is too much of an unpredictable game. And there's always if/buts/maybes. Someone has to look after the money and in this case it's DL who is doing that. He has chosen a model that is broadly sustainable, however frustrating. I honestly don't know about capitalising. I think Mourinho, Moyes and Pellegrino will all have a difficult task taking over their new ships. We have some stability (for once!).
 

stevenurse

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I really hate that we missed out on Isco :(

I especially hate that it wouldnt surprise me to see him down the road at "them" next year. Not entirely related to ITK but I suppose getting linked with Mcmanaman...
 

jair1970

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I haven't read anyone calling him a transfer 'genius' as you've put it just pointing out that his targets were successful, you should write for a tabloid with that kind of sensationalism
So ignore my point and make argument about semantics?
What is the point of that?
 

Parkie

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I don't see our situation as comparable to Chelsea or City in that they buy in big names and then rebuild the team around them whereas (I hope) we will take our existing strengths and buy to improve specific positions whilst optimising the strengths of Bale, Sandro, Dembele etc. The core we have is more than good enough and just needs a couple of the right players to make it truly special - adding young players to develop is fine but the priority must be the 2-3 players who will enable us to push for the top.

And, yes, I mean aim for the league - if we miss out by a place or two that is fine by me. It worked for Sir Bill!
 

mill

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So ignore my point and make argument about semantics?
What is the point of that?
My point is your post was poor as you were making stuff up by suggesting that people were calling AVB a transfer genius, what's the point in making stuff up?
 

jair1970

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Whilst I ultimately concur that long term the financially biggest clubs will achieve the greatest success, I feel that in this specific situation there is a great deal of unjustified fear surrounding the potential 'improvements' that our rivals for success are going to make. So millions are spent, so what?

We currently have a solid & stable playing staff, good enough to presume that as far as first 11s go, very little adjustment needs to be made for the forthcoming season. A couple of good players signed should allow us to be easily competitive amongst the top 6 next year. Add in that Arsenal/Liverpool are the only club with any degree of managerial stability & our position appears stronger too.

Chelsea will spend money & Mourinho can be considered an asset for them, Man City are seriously in flux, Utd similar. Arsenal are still lacking coherence, Liverpool have long flattered, and Everton must fall away. WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR FROM THE TEAMS AROUND US, plus we have the best player in the league & the second year under a very promising head coach. The old order is changing, & we're well set IMO. If as suggested Levy is confident of acquiring specific targets, then all the better, our strategy appears solid as many fans from other clubs will testify as to how they wished their club operated with the coherence we do.

Also I fully expect Levy & whomever is gonna formulate the transfer strategy (Baldini, 'the Committee') will be closely monitoring any offcuts deemed surplus to requirement under the new management of Utd, City And Chelsea. There must be gold in them hills & bargains to be had.
 

jair1970

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My point is your post was poor as you were making stuff up by suggesting that people were calling AVB a transfer genius, what's the point in making stuff up?
It has been suggested that Levy 'was impressed that AVB's targets were successful'
Why am I gonna make a point based on complete fiction FFS?
 

Spurger King

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We have missed out on the (Grail of) CL football by the slimmest of margins this last two seasons. If clubs with much better resources than us (I'm thinking Chelsea two years ago, Arsenal this season just gone) cannot make a better fist of it themselves (and I'm not going down the road of critiquing their individual managers), then it suggests that buying an 'expensive' player or two or three is not going to be a guarantee for any football club to achieve that status. The fact is, football is too much of an unpredictable game. And there's always if/buts/maybes. Someone has to look after the money and in this case it's DL who is doing that. He has chosen a model that is broadly sustainable, however frustrating. I honestly don't know about capitalising. I think Mourinho, Moyes and Pellegrino will all have a difficult task taking over their new ships. We have some stability (for once!).
You could also argue that given that there was such a fine margain between champions league football, and not qualifying, a little more of a push could have made a massive difference.

Our points total last season was despite our transfer dealings...not because of them.
 

xtrac

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We have missed out on the (Grail of) CL football by the slimmest of margins this last two seasons. If clubs with much better resources than us (I'm thinking Chelsea two years ago, Arsenal this season just gone) cannot make a better fist of it themselves (and I'm not going down the road of critiquing their individual managers), then it suggests that buying an 'expensive' player or two or three is not going to be a guarantee for any football club to achieve that status. The fact is, football is too much of an unpredictable game. And there's always if/buts/maybes. Someone has to look after the money and in this case it's DL who is doing that. He has chosen a model that is broadly sustainable, however frustrating. I honestly don't know about capitalising. I think Mourinho, Moyes and Pellegrino will all have a difficult task taking over their new ships. We have some stability (for once!).
So your basically saying buying a 25-30 goals a season top draw striker wouldnt of made a difference on the last 2 seasons, its interesting you say we have stability after 1 season..didnt we have that under Jol and Harry after there first season?
 

greaves

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You could also argue that given that there was such a fine margain between champions league football, and not qualifying, a little more of a push could have made a massive difference.

Our points total last season was despite our transfer dealings...not because of them.
Yep, I thought that as I wrote and I dismissed it. It reminded me of someone leaning over a gambler's shoulder in a casino and urging them to spend and spend again. It wasn't their money to gamble and as seductive as it may be and hard to resist, someone (the spender) has to draw the line, in spite of all the 'if onlys' from the vicarious gamblers at their shoulder....
 

WiganSpur

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I fail to see what the risk was, or would of been in the last 3 years, we were in a prime position to cement CL football for the foreseable future, it wasnt a case of costing us our PL future and plunghing us into the relegation mire!!

The frustrating thing is Arse have had a torrid 3 years, we failed to capitalize!
Chelski had a indifferent couple of seasons, we failed to capatilize on this!!
Citeh at the time we were in the CL were building a million dollar side, we failed to secure CL 2 seasons running by not investing, allowing them to pip us at the post again by small margins!!

To suggest spending £20-£30m on a quality striker when we had the likes of Modric VDV etc was a risk is laughable, as quite clearly missing out on CL is an even bigger risk that DL gambled on and lost circa £100m plus over the last 3 years!!!

Unfortunately for us, Arse have spending power this season, Chelski have mouriniho back and money to burn, Citeh are gone invest heavily in there new manager, and dare i say it Liverpool are gonna be very strong next year with more investment!!

So imho we missed a opportunity, and to be honest i cant see us breaking the cycle of recent TW's.
Totally agree, we have to spend just to keep competitive now, never mind get a CL spot. Last summer and January was the time to do it.
 

Bus-Conductor

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all signings have their risks. i may as well say should we sign no one in case it doesn't work out? i wish you'd stop peddling this idea that one signing could send us spirraling into financial meltdown as well. we've spent £7.5m net in 5 years now, it's about time this period of frugality started to allow us to loosen the purse strings a little.
I wish people like you would stop peddling the idea that "if only we'd made one more big signing we'd crack the big time". If all we've spent is 7.5 million net over the last 5 years, how come we aren't posting huge profits year after year ? Because guess what ? We aren't making them. We can only spend what we have. What if we'd pushed the boat our and bought Rossi for 18m and then he did his cruciate (like he did) or spent 25m on Carroll and then realised he was shit, or 25m on Torres only for him to hit the worst form of his life. What if we'd bought all three on consecutive years to compensate for the failure of each one prior, because we only needed one big signing ?

For a business who makes very small average profits over the last 5-10 years, that is the start of financial meltdown.
 

greaves

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So your basically saying buying a 25-30 goals a season top draw striker wouldnt of made a difference on the last 2 seasons, its interesting you say we have stability after 1 season..didnt we have that under Jol and Harry after there first season?
I think you make my point. No. I don't know how much this would have made a difference. It's easy to talk about (say) RVP but none of us have any idea how things would have worked in a specifically Spurs context. All players are different and I would not, for example, have been surprised if Bale would have had a less spectacular season. Teams are organisms not off-the-shelf ready meals. Look, I don't know, tbh. And this not knowing subverts a whole host of nostrums and certainties which are often just wishes in disguise.
 

jair1970

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I wish people like you would stop peddling the idea that "if only we'd made one more big signing we'd crack the big time". If all we've spent is 7.5 million net over the last 5 years, how come we aren't posting huge profits year after year ? Because guess what ? We aren't making them. We can only spend what we have. What if we'd pushed the boat our and bought Rossi for 18m and then he did his cruciate (like he did) or spent 25m on Carroll and then realised he was shit, or 25m on Torres only for him to hit the worst form of his life. What if we'd bought all three on consecutive years to compensate for the failure of each one prior, because we only needed one big signing ?

For a business who makes very small average profits over the last 5-10 years, that is the start of financial meltdown.
It's laughable that people always think one more signing would make the difference.
Injuries, loss of form, bad luck, personality clashes are but the tip of an iceberg as to why any signing can fail.
There is a wide presumption, totally at odds with numerous examples, that a big signing will equate to success.
The margins are wafer thin & that we're in there pitching with 7.5million net is a grand testament to our solid strategies.
 
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