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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - POST MORTEM EDITION

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
8,035
7,435
I get exactly what you're saying, but we have very narrowly missed out on 3 occasions now, with the squad lacking in key areas. If ENIC want to qualify for the CL (and obtain the regular income an increased profile it provides) then the failings in the squad must be addressed.

We can't claim to not be a selling club when we keep selling our best players and not investing enough in replacing them, if it's about finding the players then the scouting system should be looked into.

The headlines were x player will not be sold, I've read too many of these comments now, only to see the players 'grudgingly'/'reluctantly' sold for massive profits and inadequately replaced. If we want to compete with the big boys either the stadium needs built or we need to invest more into the squad.

I don't think AVB has been given much of a chance by DL's methods and the team just looks so off, even in 'only the first 3 games' and all that.

Sometimes I get the impression DL sees the players only as assets like stocks to make a profit on, rather than what they'll bring to the team and when he says players aren't for sale, they are, but only if the profit is sweet enough.

If we don't build a strong squad to compete, we'll continue to lose our best players and we're so close at this point that progress is critical IMO. Otherwise, Bale, Walker, Sandro, Kaboul etc. are next.

We NEED the CL and I'm not sure if Levy's methods will get us there again. I hope so though.

When we sold Keano I lost all faith in the 'unsellability' of any of our players.

With the position we are in financially I'm sure everyone of our players is available if the price is right. I've sort of come to terms with that. It seems that there are only two ways to go - the first is the Arsenal model which is growth built slowly on solid playing foundations and the second is the Chelsea model which is to buy team after team of players and climb the success ladder that way. The worrying thing is, the Arsenal model no longer seems to work. It was ok when they only had Manchester United to compete with, but the arrival of Chelsea and Manchester City has led to them being out-competed for trophies and players (not that we should be sad about that but it should give us pause for thought). All of this leads me to moderate my expectations for what we can achieve with the current financial restrictions we operate under.

The really sad part about it is, I don't really want the Club to become the toy of an Abramovich or Mansour type yet I do want success. It's just a matter of which is the lesser evil I guess.
 

Spurger King

can't smile without glue
Jul 22, 2008
43,881
95,147
When we sold Keano I lost all faith in the 'unsellability' of any of our players.

With the position we are in financially I'm sure everyone of our players is available if the price is right. I've sort of come to terms with that. It seems that there are only two ways to go - the first is the Arsenal model which is growth built slowly on solid playing foundations and the second is the Chelsea model which is to buy team after team of players and climb the success ladder that way. The worrying thing is, the Arsenal model no longer seems to work. It was ok when they only had Manchester United to compete with, but the arrival of Chelsea and Manchester City has led to them being out-competed for trophies and players (not that we should be sad about that but it should give us pause for thought). All of this leads me to moderate my expectations for what we can achieve with the current financial restrictions we operate under.

The really sad part about it is, I don't really want the Club to become the toy of an Abramovich or Mansour type yet I do want success. It's just a matter of which is the lesser evil I guess.

Good post. Sums up my feelings on what is a pretty emotive issue.

I also try to keep in mind that football is a relatively short career, and footballers want success and different experiences whilst they can still get it. That's why getting 4 years out of a player like Modric is nothing to be sniffed at, however it's also why his interest in Chavski was so obviously motivated by money. That would have been a lot harder to take than Berbatov leaving, for the simple reason that United were without a doubt the top team in the country at the time.

I have to admit that I fully expect Bale to leave next season, and not to Madrid either. Maybe I'm in full tin foil hat mode at the moment but as soon as I saw him wearing 11 my first thought was that he's marketing himself as a Giggs replacement - which lets be honest - he is.

Last season said everything anyone needed to know about the possibility of success in football. Billionaires City win the league, and billionaires Chavski win the Champions League. The fans would have enjoyed that without any sense of guilt, and it's hard to blame them when they had no say in whether or not their clubs got bought by sugar daddys.

The model we have at the moment is great from certain points of view, but when we end up missing out on players to clubs like QPR and Forest it's going to become increasingly difficult to not lean towards the 'if you can't beat them, join them' brigade.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Dembele is the smoking gun in all this. People still think Levy would spend 15mill. on him and then still go and buy moutinho for 20? lmfao. Dembele was always ratboy's replacement.

Love Levy and he's done a hell of a lot for us, but I just don't like this side of him.

Do you like my tinfoil hat? It's nice and shiny, isn't it?
 

BPR_U16

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2006
1,783
2,603
When we sold Keano I lost all faith in the 'unsellability' of any of our players.

With the position we are in financially I'm sure everyone of our players is available if the price is right. I've sort of come to terms with that. It seems that there are only two ways to go - the first is the Arsenal model which is growth built slowly on solid playing foundations and the second is the Chelsea model which is to buy team after team of players and climb the success ladder that way. The worrying thing is, the Arsenal model no longer seems to work. It was ok when they only had Manchester United to compete with, but the arrival of Chelsea and Manchester City has led to them being out-competed for trophies and players (not that we should be sad about that but it should give us pause for thought). All of this leads me to moderate my expectations for what we can achieve with the current financial restrictions we operate under.

The really sad part about it is, I don't really want the Club to become the toy of an Abramovich or Mansour type yet I do want success. It's just a matter of which is the lesser evil I guess.

Unfortunately you may be correct.

I liked what we were doing when a few years ago when we bought a number of young English players to form the core of the team that could develop together. This added to young talent from abroad that could be sold on at a profit at a later time was part of our development plan.

The skill of building a team to succeed is possibly a thing of the past because it takes too long and you have other teams out there willing to buy what they need, never mind FFP.

Levy has generally worked the TWs well. Yes mistakes have been made, players missed but he is always looking to strengthen the team without breaking the financial model.

The problem is that sometimes to make that final step to lure the right player you have to take a gamble, which might mean paying over the odds in transfer fees and wages because we are still limited in what we can offer on the field with no CL. As a club we are possibly in this position and that is the dilemna.

I don't want success the Man City or Chelsea way - so does that mean we cannot succeed?
 

Toela65

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2011
848
1,575
Good post.

As SS57 replied to your post as well - AVB seems to consider the options to be OK. However it's clear Defoe is not a starter in the kind of line up we've been playing for some time IMO.

As an impact player - Defoe can do a job, i actually like him more than most and think his work rate is decent too. However i don't think we're set up to play to his strengths thesedays.

As you say, we seem to have overlooked some young talent on this front, however i'll keep the faith for the time being, with the managerial change we've had; Pure speculation on my part but i'm guessing AVB wanted to have a look at what he had and perhaps by the time we planned to shop around, the right options were not available at the right price. Damiao being the case and point here - For the record i think the ongoing situation with LD and Inter has become a bit farcical to say the least.

As a result, we've sweetened JD's deal for the time being to keep him cheery and keep his price up but i can't see how/where he fits into the long term plans now.

After how long Levy has spent trying to sign Leandro it would of been farcical if he ended up at Liverpool which he very nearly did on transfer deadline day until the Inter President dude suddenly rose the fee that triggered a permanent deal after agreeing a loan fee with Ayre.

Told we'll try again January but Utd are after him as well now I've been told so we'll probably withdraw our interest which is what we seem to do now if a CL team comes in for a target of ours. If he does go to Utd though, or had he ended up at Anfield last Friday after all the windows Levy has tried to get him, I'd be fuming as a Spurs fan a thats a player you don't want brinkmanship causing you to miss out on.
 

spud

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2003
5,850
8,794
The skill of building a team to succeed is possibly a thing of the past because it takes too long and you have other teams out there willing to buy what they need, never mind FFP.
The thing with building a team to succeed is that you only have to do it once. Having done it, then - assuming a consistency in philosophy and approach - the job is one of augmentation to ensure that you maintain your new position in the food chain. We are almost at that level - it's just the final push that is needed.

It's true that the richest teams tend to win, for the obvious reason. But it doesn't mean that they always win. Chelski have probably spent more on transfer fees and wages than any other club in the world in the last decade; how many times have they won the CL? The New York Yankees have always spent far more than any other baseball team (breaking the cap to do so) but they don't win every year.

You have to be a rich club to compete, but being the richest doesn't guarantee sustained success.
 

Blackcanary

Dame sans merci
Jul 15, 2012
5,621
12,168
So, i'm back from holiday, I managed to do something diabolical to my shoulder whilst surfing and WTF HAPPENED WITH THE TRANSFER WINDOW?!:eek:

Any kind person fancy briefly filling me in what went down? (Stop sniggering at the back there!)
 

Snarfalicious

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2012
15,709
71,935
So, i'm back from holiday, I managed to do something diabolical to my shoulder whilst surfing and WTF HAPPENED WITH THE TRANSFER WINDOW?!:eek:

Any kind person fancy briefly filling me in what went down? (Stop sniggering at the back there!)

Sold VdV pretty early in the day (Came in, got his shit and bounced).

Agreed Lloris a couple hours (officially) before the deadline.

Moutinho was considered just about done mid-day, then it hit a snag, then it was back on, then we all sat and waited and hope we would find out it just got done and it wasn't going to be official until after the deadline passed...

While that was all happening we agreed with Dempsey out of pretty much nowhere.

Then rumors came out about us not agreeing terms with Moutinho, then it became paperwork was all shitted up, then it was third-party rights issues. In the end it equated to no Moutinho.

Harry Kane was sent to Norwich on loan.

Jenas came close to Sunderland I believe, but then they realized he's fucking awful.

And Huddlestone was close to going to Stoke on loan I believe but somewhere it stated it was pulled back.
 

Spurger King

can't smile without glue
Jul 22, 2008
43,881
95,147
So, i'm back from holiday, I managed to do something diabolical to my shoulder whilst surfing and WTF HAPPENED WITH THE TRANSFER WINDOW?!:eek:

Any kind person fancy briefly filling me in what went down? (Stop sniggering at the back there!)

Which bit exactly?

It sounds like the plan was to only let VDV leave once we had Moutinho guaranteed. We thought we'd got him so let VDV go, then it turned out that some third party ownership idiocy stopped the deal from going through - meaning we're one world class player down, and AVB misses out on his #1 target (and pivotal part of his proposed system).

On a brighter note we got Lloris and the versatile Dempsey on deadline day, and Dembele a couple of days earlier.
 

Snarfalicious

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2012
15,709
71,935
I just want to note that I always feel so empty when I have no reason to continually hit refresh on my phone to check for new rumors throughout the day.

My work appreciates the transfer window being over, however.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
5,857
2,877
After how long Levy has spent trying to sign Leandro it would of been farcical if he ended up at Liverpool which he very nearly did on transfer deadline day until the Inter President dude suddenly rose the fee that triggered a permanent deal after agreeing a loan fee with Ayre.

Told we'll try again January but Utd are after him as well now I've been told so we'll probably withdraw our interest which is what we seem to do now if a CL team comes in for a target of ours. If he does go to Utd though, or had he ended up at Anfield last Friday after all the windows Levy has tried to get him, I'd be fuming as a Spurs fan a thats a player you don't want brinkmanship causing you to miss out on.

Toela65 - what was the loan fee that you believe Liverpool had agreed in principle for Leandro?

From the outside, it appears bizarre that Liverpool could afford a presumably substantial loan fee for Leandro but could not afford to meet Fulham's price for Dempsey.

Also, if Leandro was available on loan to join a PL club in August/September, presumably with an agreed fee to buy, I would expect Levy to be all over it. The Spurs ITK was essentially suggesting that the best deal we could get involved agreeing a fee for Leandro to join in the January window, at the end of Internacional's current campaign, and that we wanted a striker now.

I know you have some good info, but this seems a strange one.
 

Blackcanary

Dame sans merci
Jul 15, 2012
5,621
12,168
Thanks guys. So it was the third party ownership bollocks that did for the Moutinho deal then? That was the bit I was puzzled by. Such a shame.:(

After being initially pretty 'meh' about Dempsey, I am now feeling more positive. The guy scores hatfuls of goals, you can't ask for more. And stealing another Liverpool target always brings me an inappropriate amount of glee...
 

ziggy

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2003
4,453
3,095
Unfortunately you may be correct.

I liked what we were doing when a few years ago when we bought a number of young English players to form the core of the team that could develop together. This added to young talent from abroad that could be sold on at a profit at a later time was part of our development plan.

The skill of building a team to succeed is possibly a thing of the past because it takes too long and you have other teams out there willing to buy what they need, never mind FFP.

Levy has generally worked the TWs well. Yes mistakes have been made, players missed but he is always looking to strengthen the team without breaking the financial model.

The problem is that sometimes to make that final step to lure the right player you have to take a gamble, which might mean paying over the odds in transfer fees and wages because we are still limited in what we can offer on the field with no CL. As a club we are possibly in this position and that is the dilemna.

I don't want success the Man City or Chelsea way - so does that mean we cannot succeed?[/quote]

Unfortunately it probably does, we keep hearing about we need the new stadium to compete, but you've only got to look at the Arse to see that it may not make all that much difference now
 

Snarfalicious

Well-Known Member
Jul 15, 2012
15,709
71,935
Thanks guys. So it was the third party ownership bollocks that did for the Moutinho deal then? That was the bit I was puzzled by. Such a shame.:(

After being initially pretty 'meh' about Dempsey, I am now feeling more positive. The guy scores hatfuls of goals, you can't ask for more. And stealing another Liverpool target always brings me an inappropriate amount of glee...

I think the biggest thing (for me personally) is the versatility he provides.

He should be giving competition to Lennon at RW, he could play in Siggy's role if his form continues to be lackluster (although in my eyes Siggy is a key player and needs to be given time to get comfortable and Dembele is a perfect fit for him), and he could also act as a 2nd striker if we wanted to go with a full-attacking squad late in a match. The versatility is key with the Dempsey signing. He arguably provides cover to 3+ positions which is huge for a club like Tottenham that has been lacking overall depth for awhile now.
 

BPR_U16

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2006
1,783
2,603
The thing with building a team to succeed is that you only have to do it once. Having done it, then - assuming a consistency in philosophy and approach - the job is one of augmentation to ensure that you maintain your new position in the food chain. We are almost at that level - it's just the final push that is needed..

I would tend to agree but as I implied in my last post, to actually overcome that last hurdle is the most difficult. You have built the team, you have the vision but something is still missing for it all to come to fruition. You can try to sell the dream - but these days that doesn't work. You need that star quality player(s), that missing person to blend it all together but to actually get them you have to pay over the odds and pay inflated wages to lure them to the the club.

and that is exactly where we are as a club, nearly there but not quite and how do you make the final step without splashing the cash you haven't got?
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
Which bit exactly?

It sounds like the plan was to only let VDV leave once we had Moutinho guaranteed. We thought we'd got him so let VDV go, then it turned out that some third party ownership idiocy stopped the deal from going through - meaning we're one world class player down, and AVB misses out on his #1 target (and pivotal part of his proposed system).

On a brighter note we got Lloris and the versatile Dempsey on deadline day, and Dembele a couple of days earlier.

More likely, when HSV finally met our asking price, which they had to do by mid-day. My suspicion is that VdV was never in AVB's plans and that Sig's his replacement. Moutinho was coming in for Mdric.
 
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