The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - POST MORTEM EDITION

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Levy has made mistakes in appointing managers but I feel the club has a safe pair of hands. Levy has taken us forward and can be seen to be trying to improve the squad. Modric wanted to go...Rafa probably too for perhaps more honourable reasons. We are tottenham we don't ever play safe which is why we support them...We will never be the type of team with 5 mins to play and 1-0 up to take it to the corner flag...All the time I've watched them they always gone for that extra goal...! It's just the way we are...Sometimes it's glory and sometimes we get burnt a bit.
 

DIEHARD

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Levy has made mistakes in appointing managers but I feel the club has a safe pair of hands. Levy has taken us forward and can be seen to be trying to improve the squad. Modric wanted to go...Rafa probably too for perhaps more honourable reasons. We are tottenham we don't ever play safe which is why we support them...We will never be the type of team with 5 mins to play and 1-0 up to take it to the corner flag...All the time I've watched them they always gone for that extra goal...! It's just the way we are...Sometimes it's glory and sometimes we get burnt a bit.

No - we dont do that. We usually do that with 15 mins to go now.
 

tgd15

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FINALLY!! For all the future posts, whining about how could levy sell rafael van der vaart without, having a replacement in place, I GIVE YOU THIS

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/tactical-analysis-how-have-spurs-set-up-under-avb-so-far/

This article analyzes rafael van der vaart's play for spurs with and without modric, and explains why rafa was expendable once we sold modric. Part 2 of this should explain how dembele, gilfy and dempsey will fill the Void left behind by modric and rafa
 

Franchise60

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uh, sample size much? What does he cite three matches?

Plus his point is based on Rafa playing in front of two defensive mids, which wouldn't be the case with Dembele in the side.

So yeah, doesn't really prove much at all.
 

Wirral Spurs

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Levy has made mistakes in appointing managers but I feel the club has a safe pair of hands. Levy has taken us forward and can be seen to be trying to improve the squad. Modric wanted to go...Rafa probably too for perhaps more honourable reasons. We are tottenham we don't ever play safe which is why we support them...We will never be the type of team with 5 mins to play and 1-0 up to take it to the corner flag...All the time I've watched them they always gone for that extra goal...! It's just the way we are...Sometimes it's glory and sometimes we get burnt a bit.
Lol subbing Defoe for Hudd wasn't particularly going for the 2nd goal.
 

tgd15

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uh, sample size much? What does he cite three matches?

Plus his point is based on Rafa playing in front of two defensive mids, which wouldn't be the case with Dembele in the side.

So yeah, doesn't really prove much at all.
Fair enough, now you provide statistical analysis of rafael van der vaart thriving without modric on the pitch, or him thriving with another offensive player behind him such as kranjcar, jenas, or hoddlestone. Something.

I agree dembele's a better offensive player than parker or sandro, but I don't believe avb is going to play the same formation 'arry would put up of four defense, two center mids, two wides, an attacking mid and a striker, so that makes the argument null and void that dembele was here to replace modric. He's not, he's here to play a role under avb's system, not the role modric played last year under redknapp (this isn't fact, just my opinion, for all I know avb could fold and play the same system as last year and make me look like an outright fool, lol)
 

alpha

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FINALLY!! For all the future posts, whining about how could levy sell rafael van der vaart without, having a replacement in place, I GIVE YOU THIS

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/tactical-analysis-how-have-spurs-set-up-under-avb-so-far/

This article analyzes rafael van der vaart's play for spurs with and without modric, and explains why rafa was expendable once we sold modric. Part 2 of this should explain how dembele, gilfy and dempsey will fill the Void left behind by modric and rafa
This article needs more exposure. Perhaps copied into Spurs Chat?
 

SpurSince57

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What are you talking about? The club has had MONTHS to find and target players. Are you saying there are no quality cheaper alternatives to Moutinho or replacements for Rafa in Europe that we could afford?

Really?

Everyone goes on and on defending levy because we can't compete for these top expensive players. FINE then. Then stop trying to sign unrealistic expensive targets at the expense of investing in younger potential based players.

Not being able to sign these high priced players isn't an excuse for Levy when he keeps going after and failing to get these high priced players.
Far more a matter of what you are on about. 'Players we can buy'. Buy cheaply? Buy easily? I pointed out that the players we've sold this summer are all internationals it's going to be difficult to improve upon (and I wasn't, in case it escaped you, referring to Rafa and Mods, but discarded squad players). Unless we upgrade, there isn't much point moving them on.

And how many 'months' have we had? It's been repeatedly pointed out that AVB wasn't appointed until 3 July, about six weeks into the window, and said that he wanted to check out the players he had before splashing the cash. That effectively meant we had August to do business, although we'd signed Vertonghen and Sig. Are those two what you mean by 'players you can buy'?(Sig, by the way, appears to be the Rafa replacement, although I wouldn't absolutely swear to it.) It seems you and a handful of pygmies in the Matto Grosso are the only human beings on the planet unaware that Moutinho was AVB's target, not Levy's; were there cheaper alternatives? You bet. Sahin, for one, whom Levy, according to JJ and others, favoured. AVB didn't want him, so Levy bust a gut, and almost our transfer record, in order to fulfil his new manager's dearest wish. 'Cinders, you shall go to the ball!'

So he failed. One assumes there was at least one cock-up somewhere along the line, but as usual no-one's owning up. Still, we tried, like we tried for Llorente, and, like my old nan used to say, 'You'll get nowt if you don't ask, lad.' Sometimes you get nowt if you do ask, but this relentless, 'Oh, we're only Tottenham, we'll never get a player like that' is just as ballsaching as the bleating ninnies who say signing Dempsey and Dembélé shows 'a lack of ambition'.

Fuck me, we've spent over £50m this summer and bought some seriously decent players and people like you are still snivelling and whining.
 

SpurSince57

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Knock yourself out, I don't need the credit for sharing it, I didn't write it, lmao
I'd still start a thread in Spurs Chat with it rather than let some other bugger get the kudos for finding it.

However, Levy wouldn't have put Rafa up for sale if AVB hadn't told him he was surplus to requirements. The other flaw in the argument is, if we'd succeeded in signing Moutinho, wouldn't he have fulfilled the Modric role and therefore made Rafa relevant?
 

Franchise60

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Fair enough, now you provide statistical analysis of rafael van der vaart thriving without modric on the pitch, or him thriving with another offensive player behind him such as kranjcar, jenas, or hoddlestone. Something.
I don't need to provide statistical analysis to combat a small sample size statistical argument that ignores a key component like adding Dembele. I just have to point out how weak the "statistics" are in the argument.

The fact you think that article is some smoking gun considering all of its weaknesses is pretty hilarious.
 

Franchise60

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It's pretty amazing how quick people are to discard VDV's importance as a player and to mock those who are unhappy with his sale. He is one of the best players we've had the pleasure of watching in the past.

Anything to defend Daniel though I suppose.
 

tgd15

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I'd still start a thread in Spurs Chat with it rather than let some other bugger get the kudos for finding it.

However, Levy wouldn't have put Rafa up for sale if AVB hadn't told him he was surplus to requirements. The other flaw in the argument is, if we'd succeeded in signing Moutinho, wouldn't he have fulfilled the Modric role and therefore made Rafa relevant?
I'm no attention whore :p

you're assuming, there'd be a modric role to begin with.
 

alpha

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Far more a matter of what you are on about. 'Players we can buy'. Buy cheaply? Buy easily? I pointed out that the players we've sold this summer are all internationals it's going to be difficult to improve upon (and I wasn't, in case it escaped you, referring to Rafa and Mods, but discarded squad players). Unless we upgrade, there isn't much point moving them on.

And how many 'months' have we had? It's been repeatedly pointed out that AVB wasn't appointed until 3 July, about six weeks into the window, and said that he wanted to check out the players he had before splashing the cash. That effectively meant we had August to do business, although we'd signed Vertonghen and Sig. Are those two what you mean by 'players you can buy'?(Sig, by the way, appears to be the Rafa replacement, although I wouldn't absolutely swear to it.) It seems you and a handful of pygmies in the Matto Grosso are the only human beings on the planet unaware that Moutinho was AVB's target, not Levy's; were there cheaper alternatives? You bet. Sahin, for one, whom Levy, according to JJ and others, favoured. AVB didn't want him, so Levy bust a gut, and almost our transfer record, in order to fulfil his new manager's dearest wish. 'Cinders, you shall go to the ball!'

So he failed. One assumes there was at least one cock-up somewhere along the line, but as usual no-one's owning up. Still, we tried, like we tried for Llorente, and, like my old nan used to say, 'You'll get nowt if you don't ask, lad.' Sometimes you get nowt if you do ask, but this relentless, 'Oh, we're only Tottenham, we'll never get a player like that' is just as ballsaching as the bleating ninnies who say signing Dempsey and Dembélé shows 'a lack of ambition'.

Fuck me, we've spent over £50m this summer and bought some seriously decent players and people like you are still snivelling and whining.
Net spend is -£5.8m. We have bought in some amazing players yes, and agree with your points. However the question is have we improved overall?

>edit as an fyi, last season net spend was -£27m
 

Franchise60

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Far more a matter of what you are on about. 'Players we can buy'. Buy cheaply? Buy easily? I pointed out that the players we've sold this summer are all internationals it's going to be difficult to improve upon (and I wasn't, in case it escaped you, referring to Rafa and Mods, but discarded squad players). Unless we upgrade, there isn't much point moving them on.
Now you are just incoherently going off on tangents (sums up the end of our transfer windows quite well).

You asked me what players we should have had for backups. My answer was that we should have had backups to Moutinho and there are younger players that are more easily gettable and cheaper than Moutinho across Europe that our scouts should be looking at. You replied that I wanted to just fill the squad numbers with anyone, which is some pretty serious reading comprehension fail and makes me wonder if you need me to draw you a picture to understand a point. Maybe that or you're just intentional being dense.

We replaced Modric/VDV/Niko/Pienarr with Dembele and Gylfi. I love the Dembele signing but we left ourselves incredibly short in creativity. You'll probably be one of the muppets complaining about the manager not trying to win in Greece in the 2nd round of the Europa Group stage too.

And how many 'months' have we had? It's been repeatedly pointed out that AVB wasn't appointed until 3 July, about six weeks into the window, and said that he wanted to check out the players he had before splashing the cash. That effectively meant we had August to do business, although we'd signed Vertonghen and Sig. Are those two what you mean by 'players you can buy'?(Sig, by the way, appears to be the Rafa replacement, although I wouldn't absolutely swear to it.) It seems you and a handful of pygmies in the Matto Grosso are the only human beings on the planet unaware that Moutinho was AVB's target, not Levy's; were there cheaper alternatives? You bet. Sahin, for one, whom Levy, according to JJ and others, favoured. AVB didn't want him, so Levy bust a gut, and almost our transfer record, in order to fulfil his new manager's dearest wish. 'Cinders, you shall go to the ball!'
Sorry but Levy sacking a manager and not appointing a new one until July 3 to save some wages isn't a valid excuse for not sorting out our transfer window. We waited until the last week to sell Modric and the last day to sell VdV. This negatively hurt our transfer window and is a fact.

Fuck me, we've spent over £50m this summer and bought some seriously decent players and people like you are still snivelling and whining.
We "spent" more than 50m the summer we sold Berbatov and we were in the relegation spots into january. Gross spend means fuck all. We "spent" less than we "sold." I'm not an economics major but it seems like only a "pigmy" would expect people to be over the moon after another window of selling more than we bought.
 

tgd15

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I don't need to provide statistical analysis to combat a small sample size statistical argument that ignores a key component like adding Dembele. I just have to point out how weak the "statistics" are in the argument.

The fact you think that article is some smoking gun considering all of its weaknesses is pretty hilarious.
The article took four games into consideration, out of a 38 game season, that makes for a little better than ten percent of the season in question. Ten percent of the season, not ten percent of the games rafael van der vaart featured in (otherwise the percentage would be higher).
stats don't lie. Scouting, judgment, opinion, all that can be skewed. This article is presenting facts though. You turning your nose up to this analysis without a valid counter point other than "I'm not convinced and I don't have to prove it to you"... Now THAT'S hilarious.



It's pretty amazing how quick people are to discard VDV's importance as a player and to mock those who are unhappy with his sale. He is one of the best players we've had the pleasure of watching in the past.

Anything to defend Daniel though I suppose.
Don't get me wrong, I love rafa, and am grateful for what he did for the team. I just think modric was far more important than rafa, and I don't believe rafa can duplicate last season's success without a player of modric's ability playing behind him.

If you feel I have mocked you, for that I am sorry.

As for being pro-levy, I suppose I do fall into that category. I'd rather support a well run team like spurs under daniel levy, than have it go the way of liverpool, leeds, or heaven forbid even portsmouth. At least with daniel in charge, I know the club will never outspend itself
 

Franchise60

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I'm no attention whore :p

you're assuming, there'd be a modric role to begin with.
The crux of the article is that without Modric in the lineup Rafa has to go back and get the ball because our DMs cannot connect defense to attack. This is true but the problem is not with Rafa it is with the DMs not being able to connect defense to attack. This problem would exist with anyone playing Rafa's role. With Dembele next to a DM and behind Rafa this problem would not exist anywhere close to the level the article suggests.
 

Franchise60

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The article took four games into consideration, out of a 38 game season, that makes for a little better than ten percent of the season in question. Ten percent of the season, not ten percent of the games rafael van der vaart featured in (otherwise the percentage would be higher).
stats don't lie. Scouting, judgment, opinion, all that can be skewed. This article is presenting facts though. You turning your nose up to this analysis without a valid counter point other than "I'm not convinced and I don't have to prove it to you"... Now THAT'S hilarious.
4 games is not a legitimate sample size.

Again, it is built on the fallacy that we would play Rafa in front of two defensive midfielders this season. We wouldn't.

You haven't provided any counter points besides "HERE IS THIS COOL ARTICLE STATS STATS%%%%%%" and "NO MODRIC NO VDV GOODNESS." Bring some original thought of your own into the discussion when you are just piggybacking a weak article you don't have the depth to question.

Stats are a great tool but blindly following poor arguments based upon small samples of data built upon fallacies is a joke.
 

tgd15

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The crux of the article is that without Modric in the lineup Rafa has to go back and get the ball because our DMs cannot connect defense to attack. This is true but the problem is not with Rafa it is with the DMs not being able to connect defense to attack. This problem would exist with anyone playing Rafa's role. With Dembele next to a DM and behind Rafa this problem would not exist anywhere close to the level the article suggests.
Finally an argument!! Again you're assuming dembele would be just as effective as modric would be playing the same role. My opinion of course is that dembele is nowhere near the quality a player that modric is. For that reason, I don't think there will be a "modric role" on this year's team. everything I've read about avb's preference in regards to formations would require rafa to play as a right inverted winger (but as a winger, we'd have the same issues as far as conditioning goes as last year) or as an attacking mid (in the hole, the same role he played last year) where again, he wouldn't flourish unless he has a player of modric's quality behind him. Dembele is good but nowhere near as good as modric. I'm afraid there'd be considerable drop off from rafa as a result. That's why I think we signed gilfy, to play as either that player in the hole, or that right wing. Both he and dembele have good finishing and stamina to not waste a sub per game on replacing them in the 60th minute. Last year, weren't rafa, started was pretty much like starting the game with only two subs since you already knew rafa would leave early. It was justified because he played great, but AGAIN he only played great because modric was behind him. And now he wouldn't be anymore. THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE ARTICLE
 

HappySpur

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It's a good article. I do think that the heat map showed that VDV was expected to defend more than he was under Harry. Not to say that your thesis is wrong, but it's not a simple correlation.

I look forward to the second piece.
 
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