The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - MORE MADNESS! 15th August 2012

[bgoldie]

Archie on SO re: Luka fee:

not quite what Sky are reporting but not far off.. Not far north of £30m with all add ons and some may not happen

 

[Nocando]

I expect he meant we'll be receiving that £30m over the next 10 years, and the £8m after Luka scores 100 league goals. So never.

I'm sure I've seen it reported that a large proportion is upfront iirc, so that wouldn't be the case. I suspect that judging from his tweets he hasn't been as close to the situation as he would like us to believe (on this occasion). I even suspect JJ hasn't been as close as he would like either. The Q & A thing on twitter seems very odd if you ask me. It's certainly a nice ego boost to get lots of interest. I was overjoyed when a journo retweeted one of mine the other day #bestdayofmylife

Unfortunately for those that bash him (or create paraodies) Potl has come out trumps on this occasion and taken the bout with a ko inside the third round.

Still, not to worry, the next fight is about to begin.... Let's get reeeadddyyy to rumble.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Really? Wouldn't that shake out in the Champions League? Where we're had more finalists in the last 15 seasons than anyone else. Spain have two more winners than us but we're the more consistent country. For all this talk of being inferior tactically and technically, it just never seems to amount to much when you compare recent results against the continent.

You mean where ManU were knocked out by the fifth placed Spanish side and Chelsea were outplayed by sides from Italy, Portugal and Germany ?

There is always the danger of paying more attention to results than performances, especially in cup competitions. If we base opinions on pure results Chelsea are the best team in Europe.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I completely disagree and it is shown in the CL that this is just not true.

Back on topic I believe that the PL is a bigger draw than serie A at the moment. However Juve are a bigger draw than us.

As above, you are saying Chelsea are the best team in Europe then ?

 

[Spurger King]

Archie on SO re: Luka fee:

I know Archibald is about as reliable as ITK gets but I really hope he's wrong.

Seems insane that we're apparently stalling over signing players like Lloris, Adebayor and Leandro due to differences of valuation that probably total between £6-8m, then go and sell one of our best players for £10m less than he's worth.

*edit - sorry to drag this thread off-topic by talking about ITK instead of the respective merits of the Premiership, Serie A, and La Liga.

 

[Mr Pink]

So Archie saying not far off, Phantom and JJ basically implying its a good bit more....

 

[Legend10]

I would say having watched plenty of it that La Liga is definitely superior to the Premiership and it's not just 2 sides as people like to make out.

Serie A i would say is behind La Liga, the Premiership and the Bundesliga in most aspects.

 

[etchedchaos]

You mean where ManU were knocked out by the fifth placed Spanish side and Chelsea were outplayed by sides from Italy, Portugal and Germany ?

There is always the danger of paying more attention to results than performances, especially in cup competitions. If we base opinions on pure results Chelsea are the best team in Europe.

Results extrapolated over the last 15 seasons not one season. Not to mention performances from game to game can vary tremendously, to place the superiority of a whole league over the performances in one game is incredibly shortsighted. As it is the defacto best team on the planet couldn't beat a team who were tactically setup to counter them, doesn't help your cause much does it?

Also, you talk about paying more attention to results being bad and in the very first sentence you fall into that exact trap.

At the end of the day if we had the most inferior league of the big 4, we'd not have the amount of European success we have had as a league. It's all well and good pointing to a few bad performances last season, but it's such a small sample size that it means little in the grand scheme of things. How about the season before last where the 4th placed team in the league absolutely thumped the reigning European Champs at home and then knocked out the best team in Italy at that time in the last 16.

A team who had no prior Champions League experience at that.

 

[Original # 10]

FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE:
THINK about this:

1. That reported fee agreed with RM for Modric could also include a player thrown in the deal.
2. That reported fee is just what we are saying publicly because we want Moutinho and Lloris / LD cheaper.

Yeah we know

 

[eddiev14]

I am going a bit off topic here, but I just read that Fabrice Muamba has retired from football.

As I'm sure many of us were, I was at the game that day, and just reading about it again this evening stirred a lot of the emotions I felt back then. Whenever I think about that day, it really helps me to level my often over emotional feelings about the game and Spurs.

This is even more important in the transfer window, when I spend hours on here moaning about not having player X, Y, Z.

I won't be doing this today. It just doesn't seem important today.

Good luck to Fabrice, I really hope that he is offered the opportunity to stay involved in football in some capacity.

 

[wishkah]

I am going a bit off topic here, but I just read that Fabrice Muamba has retired from football.

As I'm sure many of us were, I was at the game that day, and just reading about it again this evening stirred a lot of the emotions I felt back then. Whenever I think about that day, it really helps me to level my often over emotional feelings about the game and Spurs.

This is even more important in the transfer window, when I spend hours on here moaning about not having player X, Y, Z.

I won't be doing this today. It just doesn't seem important today.

Good luck to Fabrice, I really hope that he is offered the opportunity to stay involved in football in some capacity.

I'm firmly against singing players with a one-letter surname.

 

[Spurger King]

I'm firmly against singing players with a one-letter surname.

Could just about stretch to Ba.

 

[wishkah]

Could just about stretch to Ba.

you've taken my shite joke and added some class.

fair play.

 

[Gedson100]

In defence of AKQAYID
Think people need to stop rounding on Akqayid.
It's become almost a daily pastime on both threads and there's a distinct lack of perception in what the haters are saying.

He is two things:
1: Confirmed ITK, unlike many who have criticised
2: A fan.

The problem is people have got no interest in discerning whether what he says is from an ITK or fan perspective.
So tonight when he says 'Oh, no Levy's got butt-fucked by Real Madrid' it's the same reaction everyone else had when they heard £23m being reported. That he later thinks that it's been misreported is the same judgement the rest of us came to after some period of thought.
(At least before Archie just showed up!)

He seems to have taken on board some of the criticisms; his ITK today and yesterday in the RO has been spelled out explicitly; it is what it is. He's even attempting to discredit some of the WUMs on Twitter, which though to his credit is unnecessary.

He's implied Ade is done on a few occasions; other reliable ITK suggests that it near as heck was; see today's David ITK.
He's implied Lloris is done; it seems the fee is the sticking point. The transfer is still live. If that's what he's been told what can he do about it? Not tell us?

His main fault is that he is an enthusiast. He wants good things to happen to our club and he wants to tell us all about it first. He aims to please. As such, his info is drawn from an array of sources and often unfiltered, especially since his move to Twitter.
The return to posting a daily update through this site is a good one. And the added room for explanation allows him to elucidate more of what he knows and why.
Let's celebrate the positive aspect of his contributions: he's working to inform us and shares his information freely.
Without his contributions, there'd be a lot less to discuss around here.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Results extrapolated over the last 15 seasons not one season. Not to mention performances from game to game can vary tremendously, to place the superiority of a whole league over the performances in one game is incredibly shortsighted. As it is the defacto best team on the planet couldn't beat a team who were tactically setup to counter them, doesn't help your cause much does it?

Also, you talk about paying more attention to results being bad and in the very first sentence you fall into that exact trap.

At the end of the day if we had the most inferior league of the big 4, we'd not have the amount of European success we have had as a league. It's all well and good pointing to a few bad performances last season, but it's such a small sample size that it means little in the grand scheme of things. How about the season before last where the 4th placed team in the league absolutely thumped the reigning European Champs at home and then knocked out the best team in Italy at that time in the last 16.

A team who had no prior Champions League experience at that.

I was being ironic. I don't think Atletico Madrid are necessarily a better team than ManU any more than I think Chelsea are better than Barcelona or Bayern Munich. That was my point. It's a knock out cup competition, using it as the only yardstick to judge a league's quality is stupid IMO.

 

[etchedchaos]

I was being ironic. I don't think Atletico Madrid are necessarily a better team than ManU any more than I think Chelsea are better than Barcelona or Bayern Munich. That was my point. It's a knock out cup competition, using it as the only yardstick to judge a league's quality is stupid IMO.

Stupid? One season yes, but I took the results from 15 seasons. Our consistency is such that it goes against the perceived myth of being inferior tactically and technically. You might think we are, but the results don't show it, since United won the CL for the first time we've been constantly in or around the final. I'd give you La Liga for technical and tactical reasons but Italy and Germany are clearly inferior. If you exclude Bayern, Germany have had one finalist in the last 15 years, Italy have been getting by on the reputation of their clubs in the late 80's to 90's.

As it is, we all watch insane amounts of English football, we're well aware of the technical inadequacies of the Stoke;s of this world and it clouds our judgement of the EPL's place in the pantheon of footballing nations. Every league has it's cloggers and poor teams, we're just more intimate with our own and fail to take into consideration every nation has them.

 

[gibbospurs]

Jesus peeps! Last summer most of us agreed with fuck Chelsea, sell him abroad for 30m. Now since then what has changed? Nothing. We have sold him for 30m, abroad! Can we move on now.?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Stupid? One season yes, but I took the results from 15 seasons. Our consistency is such that it goes against the perceived myth of being inferior tactically and technically. You might think we are, but the results don't show it, since United won the CL for the first time we've been constantly in or around the final. I'd give you La Liga for technical and tactical reasons but Italy and Germany are clearly inferior. If you exclude Bayern, Germany have had one finalist in the last 15 years, Italy have been getting by on the reputation of their clubs in the late 80's to 90's.

As it is, we all watch insane amounts of English football, we're well aware of the technical inadequacies of the Stoke;s of this world and it clouds our judgement of the EPL's place in the pantheon of footballing nations. Every league has it's cloggers and poor teams, we're just more intimate with our own and fail to take into consideration every nation has them.

No, you are taking the top 3/4 clubs from each league as a yardstick for the whole league. That is not representative of the whole league(s). It is massively skewed.

Why not include the Europa league. How are English clubs doing there over the last 15 years ?

I am talking about the general quality of the whole leagues, not just taking the best 3 teams as an indicator of a league's quality. And the only reason English clubs are even remotely close to Spain and Italy for technical and tactical quality/innovation and ingenuity is because they have higher percentage of foreign players (and probably managers) than every league in europe apart from Cyprus.

You can take a general indicator from it as to which are the strongest leagues, but just like the best footballing side doesn't always actually win a game or a league the best country isn't always the one that wins the CL.

The fact that Chelsea were outplayed by Napoli & Benfica and ManU were outplayed by Atletico should tell you more about the technical and tactical quality than simple results.

 

[C0YS]

Stupid? One season yes, but I took the results from 15 seasons. Our consistency is such that it goes against the perceived myth of being inferior tactically and technically. You might think we are, but the results don't show it, since United won the CL for the first time we've been constantly in or around the final. I'd give you La Liga for technical and tactical reasons but Italy and Germany are clearly inferior. If you exclude Bayern, Germany have had one finalist in the last 15 years, Italy have been getting by on the reputation of their clubs in the late 80's to 90's.

As it is, we all watch insane amounts of English football, we're well aware of the technical inadequacies of the Stoke;s of this world and it clouds our judgement of the EPL's place in the pantheon of footballing nations. Every league has it's cloggers and poor teams, we're just more intimate with our own and fail to take into consideration every nation has them.

If italy have been geting on by the reputations of their clubs in the 90s then how do you explain the massive success in CL wins they have had in the 00s? Not that Serie A is better then the PL.

You didn't take results you took a statistic which does not by itself mean much. It is also historical and thus not reflective of today. The UEFA coefficient is a good way to measure league strenth and it has Spain ahead of England.

Another way to indicate how Spain might be ahead of England is in the players who have come to England from Spain. for example

Torres- In Spain before joining liverpool Torres was a cult figure rather then generally being thought of as world class. The season befor joining Liverpool he had scored 15 goals in 40 games. At liverpool in 46 games he scores 33. In spain his best season he only scored 21 goals out of 40.

Silva- Before joining Man city he was dropped from the Spanish starting line up, and played only 4 minutes after the first game in that compition. In La Liga he was considered a good player, but not a star of the league. In England on the other hand he is one of the best players in the league.

Aquero- Some story as Silva, although the season before he left Man city was also very good. But again the club he played for finished 7th and 9th the two previous seasons, a club he was not even considered the best player of in all but the last season.

This again is not proof that the PL is the better league but does suggest it could be the case. If you want me to bring out the head to head record of Spanish v English clubs I am sure it will not be flattering for the English clubs.

 

[etchedchaos]

No, you are taking the top 3/4 clubs from each league as a yardstick for the whole league. That is not representative of the whole league(s). It is massively skewed.

Why not include the Europa league. How are English clubs doing there over the last 15 years ?

I am talking about the general quality of the whole leagues, not just taking the best 3 teams as an indicator of a league's quality. And the only reason English clubs are even remotely close to Spain and Italy for technical and tactical quality/innovation and ingenuity is because they have higher percentage of foreign players (and probably managers) than every league in europe apart from Cyprus.

You can take a general indicator from it as to which are the strongest leagues, but just like the best footballing side doesn't always actually win a game or a league the best country isn't always the one that wins the CL.

The fact that Chelsea were outplayed by Napoli & Benfica and ManU were outplayed by Atletico should tell you more about the technical and tactical quality than simple results.

We are dire in the Europa League but there is also a theme of English teams not taking it seriously and those who do either make the final or are woefully ill-equipped to fight on more than one front. However if you look at the finalists outside of Spain there just isn't a consistent 2nd place, it's not a viable barometer for comparing the top 4 for tactical and technical skills.

I chose the Champions League because using your best teams as a yardstick is the only measurable way to do it. Everything else is just opinion, and in the concept of best leagues finding an actual legitimate measurable is incredibly hard. For every fan who is dazzled by Barcelona's ability to keep the ball another is perturbed at the inability for Barca to adequately break down a team that parks the bus. Much like some of us hate Stoke and their Rugby playing style, some people find it as a breath of fresh air (wtf).

Everyone has an opinion, trying to use them to compare leagues is naive.

Look, you're not thinking on the same terms as I am. I looked at the results for the last 15 seasons to actually get an idea for the strengths of the leagues over a long enough period for the best teams to have cycled their players a few times. Taking a 3 year sample isn't enough, as in that sample you get outliers, those teams for 3 seasons are almost unbeatable in the grand scheme of things. By taking 15 years those unbeatable teams have been disbanded and rebuilt several times.

It also lessens the crapshoot nature of a cup competition, you get a much larger sample size and that accounts for the variance of sudden-death football. As always the cream rises to the top. The cream is La Liga and the EPL.

As for your outplaying point, what does that matter? It's an incredibly short-sighted way of looking at things, a handful of matches specifically pick upon to draw a conclusion from. You never pick a few matches and draw your whole conclusion, it's cherrypicking. Much like you don't take the last 40 years and use that either.

As it is, every team gets outplayed, every single one. The best team's in the world have off-days they have bad days, they get tactically out-thought, this is why we use results, because the better teams will win even when outplayed. As it is Chelsea largely won the Champions League this season because tactically they had a system that negated the strengths of Barca and Bayern. Chances missed or not, Chelsea were tactically superior to Barcelona and Bayern couldn't beat them either.

They were the 6th best side in England, which in European competitions for a nation's 6th best team to win the Champion's League is unheard of until now.

So whilst you may believe we're the 4th best tactically and technically, your opinion doesn't match the last 15 years of continental competition.