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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - MORE MADNESS! 15th August 2012

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etchedchaos

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Jun 1, 2006
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If italy have been geting on by the reputations of their clubs in the 90s then how do you explain the massive success in CL wins they have had in the 00s? Not that Serie A is better then the PL.

You didn't take results you took a statistic which does not by itself mean much. It is also historical and thus not reflective of today. The UEFA coefficient is a good way to measure league strenth and it has Spain ahead of England.

Another way to indicate how Spain might be ahead of England is in the players who have come to England from Spain. for example

Torres- In Spain before joining liverpool Torres was a cult figure rather then generally being thought of as world class. The season befor joining Liverpool he had scored 15 goals in 40 games. At liverpool in 46 games he scores 33. In spain his best season he only scored 21 goals out of 40.

Silva- Before joining Man city he was dropped from the Spanish starting line up, and played only 4 minutes after the first game in that compition. In La Liga he was considered a good player, but not a star of the league. In England on the other hand he is one of the best players in the league.

Aquero- Some story as Silva, although the season before he left Man city was also very good. But again the club he played for finished 7th and 9th the two previous seasons, a club he was not even considered the best player of in all but the last season.

This again is not proof that the PL is the better league but does suggest it could be the case. If you want me to bring out the head to head record of Spanish v English clubs I am sure it will not be flattering for the English clubs.

What massive success is this? They've won the CL 3 times, same amount as England, but they've only been in the final 5 times, we've been in the Final 8 times, that's over 50% more. So this massive success isn't actually massive at all.

I didn't take results? I specifically looked at the abundance of finalists from each nation, those are results, the accumulated results of each competition. There's an article from March that goes into even more depth and England comes a very close 2nd to Spain for European success and that doesn't include our winning it this season.

So, because more Spanish players are leaving Spain for England, that makes their league better? That logic is wrong. Surely if players are emigrating from Spain to England it shows the attractiveness of our league. If more English players were going to Spain I'd say we're not as attractive as La Liga.

So, because Torress was a considered a 'cult figure' and then became world-class in england makes us weak? What the fuck? Torres was 23 when he joined the scouse, he wasn't even in his prime, you can attribute his jump to world-class through him achieving his vast potential.

As for Silva, you say he was dropped from the Spain side. Well now he's as City he's back in the Spain side, funny how that works eh?

Aguero is even worse, you're attributing the failure of his club team as a reflection on his skills? How ridiculous is that? Aguero was world-class at Atletico, he's world-class now, he's just in a far superior team.

All you've done is point out circumstantial evidence which isn't even evidence and skewed it towards your own opinion. It's a case of making a conclusion then cherrypicking items to suit said conclusion.

Please bring out the winning record of english teams versus spanish teams. I've never said we were superior, I'm arguing that we're not inferior, to Spain, Germany and Italy. If you want you can find some circumstantial evidence to make Germany and Italy better too.
 

HappySpur

You Can't Unfry Things Jerri
Jan 7, 2012
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Jesus peeps! Last summer most of us agreed with fuck Chelsea, sell him abroad for 30m. Now since then what has changed? Nothing. We have sold him for 30m, abroad! Can we move on now.?

Couple of reasons it will be hard to move on immediately

1) We haven't necessarily sold him for 30m. We've sold him for potentially 30m. And some of that goes straight to his old club.

2) We've sold one of the best deep lying CM in the game to the 2nd richest team on the planet for less than Lucas Moura and slightly more than Oscar.

3) We've been dragged through two summers of this insanity. For what? Less than we could have gotten from a team that ultimately beat us to UCL and has now rebuilt their squad so it will be much harder to catch them. Playing Billy Big Balls kind of stripped us of cash we can use.

4) The only replacement we will look at costs more than LM and we've shown no signs of paying such fees. And seem not to have a plan B (but on this I feel that it can't be true)

Moving on is fine, but expect that there will be fallout from this. These are worrying items I've listed and for one such as myself that sees through an economic lens, this is worrying. Very worrying.
 

TheChosenOne

A dislike or neg rep = fat fingers
Dec 13, 2005
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Arsenal have had at least 15 seasons of FAILURE in the Champions League, good ain't it ?
 

YankeeYid9

Member
Aug 8, 2012
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Couple of reasons it will be hard to move on immediately

1) We haven't necessarily sold him for 30m. We've sold him for potentially 30m. And some of that goes straight to his old club.

2) We've sold one of the best deep lying CM in the game to the 2nd richest team on the planet for less than Lucas Moura and slightly more than Oscar.

3) We've been dragged through two summers of this insanity. For what? Less than we could have gotten from a team that ultimately beat us to UCL and has now rebuilt their squad so it will be much harder to catch them. Playing Billy Big Balls kind of stripped us of cash we can use.

4) The only replacement we will look at costs more than LM and we've shown no signs of paying such fees. And seem not to have a plan B (but on this I feel that it can't be true)

Moving on is fine, but expect that there will be fallout from this. These are worrying items I've listed and for one such as myself that sees through an economic lens, this is worrying. Very worrying.

1) Nobody can be certain of What we have sold Modric for as of right now. So to get crazy about it for now is pointless. As long as the amount is enough for us to pursue our top targets then i'm ok with that. Also the deal seems to be contingent on us signing a replacement.

2) The crazy amounts paid by 2 teams with owners who do not care about financial restraint for young unproven brazillians really can't be compared to Luka. You would say well Luka is proven and should cost more but we're not selling to PSG or Chelsea. Real have paid crazy fees in the past but I feel they want Modric but are not desperate for him.

3) Again Chelsea can rebuild their squad completely in ANY transfer window due to their ability to spend. You can't do what Arsenal has done recently and strengthen your direct competition. Selling to City/ManU/Chelsea even for a lot of money is no good unless you can buy a player who makes you better. 40mil would have been nice last summer (if it was even the true amount which again i'm not certain anyone knows for sure.) But now Chelsea would have Modric and they'd be harder to beat while he cut us apart with his passing. Selling your best overseas is the best practice but isn't always enough interest to make it happen.

4) I assume you mean Mountinho in this. His Buyout may be higher than whats been tossed about in the papers as far as the fee we got for Modric but surely Levy knows what he is doing. Buyouts are unusually high to keep predatory clubs from swooping in. If the reports are true and Joao wants out then a lower fee will surely be negotiated. And with nobody knowing what we got for Mods or what we may spend on Joao I feel that a wait and see approach is warranted.

I'm certainly excited and nervous about what may or may not happen with our club in the near future but I feel we are a club moving in the right direction overall and believe that Levy/AVB will keep it pointed on course. I'm not saying your wrong Happy thats why I didn't just click disagree but just have a different view on the same set of circumstances but neither of us can be certain.
 

HappySpur

You Can't Unfry Things Jerri
Jan 7, 2012
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1) Nobody can be certain of What we have sold Modric for as of right now. So to get crazy about it for now is pointless. As long as the amount is enough for us to pursue our top targets then i'm ok with that. Also the deal seems to be contingent on us signing a replacement.

2) The crazy amounts paid by 2 teams with owners who do not care about financial restraint for young unproven brazillians really can't be compared to Luka. You would say well Luka is proven and should cost more but we're not selling to PSG or Chelsea. Real have paid crazy fees in the past but I feel they want Modric but are not desperate for him.

3) Again Chelsea can rebuild their squad completely in ANY transfer window due to their ability to spend. You can't do what Arsenal has done recently and strengthen your direct competition. Selling to City/ManU/Chelsea even for a lot of money is no good unless you can buy a player who makes you better. 40mil would have been nice last summer (if it was even the true amount which again i'm not certain anyone knows for sure.) But now Chelsea would have Modric and they'd be harder to beat while he cut us apart with his passing. Selling your best overseas is the best practice but isn't always enough interest to make it happen.

4) I assume you mean Mountinho in this. His Buyout may be higher than whats been tossed about in the papers as far as the fee we got for Modric but surely Levy knows what he is doing. Buyouts are unusually high to keep predatory clubs from swooping in. If the reports are true and Joao wants out then a lower fee will surely be negotiated. And with nobody knowing what we got for Mods or what we may spend on Joao I feel that a wait and see approach is warranted.

I'm certainly excited and nervous about what may or may not happen with our club in the near future but I feel we are a club moving in the right direction overall and believe that Levy/AVB will keep it pointed on course. I'm not saying your wrong Happy thats why I didn't just click disagree but just have a different view on the same set of circumstances but neither of us can be certain.

This is a very good post. I don't agree with it all, but I do respect it. Have some rep.

The one thing about this post is that it takes places in the fantasy land of ITK. So Archie says 30m then it's 30m. He's that highly regarded. And my point isn't that everything listed is dogma. It's that these are the issues, that can't be overlooked based on "he's gone...build a bridge" if the situation, as we know it, is true. Maybe we got 50m and Sahin. Maybe not, but at the moment, we look like we didn't do as well as one would expect with his lordship Levy. And thus the points are valid to those of us that think something is amiss here.
 

YankeeYid9

Member
Aug 8, 2012
80
104
I agree. with you in that as a whole we will all see a "lower" figure than what has been thrown around. The whole "tuff guy" give us £40mil or move off of it that was shown early in the window led people to believe that Levy would force Madrid to put the full amount. As it progressed popular opinion seemed to think we're asking for 40 to get 35 and we may still have somewhere in the 35 ballpark with add-ons but who knows. And I do agree so far it hasn't been a landslide win for us. But the fact that we still have time to find a replacement, for me, is more important than getting every last quid (like Berba) and ending up with Campbell. And for that fact alone I will put it in the "win" column for now. Now if we don't do anything with the money then well @#$%^&*
 
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