What's new

The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - Groundhog Day you say? Groundhog Day you say?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Archibald&Crooks

Aegina Expat
Admin
Feb 1, 2005
55,533
204,721
I'd link you an article if I wouldn't get banned but if you google pochettino prefers to have talent at home not on loan - the article in the guardian has quotes where he discusses that it is his preference that they stay.

I agree with you that I do think it's one of those things that was blown way out of proportion on here where people are suggesting he ruined their careers or what not, Im of the mentality that the cream always rises to the top and I do think his overall use of young players warrants his reputation as an excellent coach for developing youth but if there was 1 blot on his copybook I'd say it was the stagnation of a few players through lack of loans which appears to have been his choice judging by his own words.
That's fair enough, if he prefers them to stay then that's that. But I'm still not sure we can say for sure that it's to the detriment of a players career. Some managers play things one way, others take a different path. As you say, the cream will rise to the top and the worst you could say is that he may have stalled a career, certainly not ended any (not that anyone is suggesting that) :D
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
See this is another thing I'm not entirely sure I agree on, the need for him to loan out players or indeed that he's entirely responsible for not doing so. This is again one of those things we decide upon without knowing the facts. Do we know who is actually responsible for youth development? What input does he have on deciding who goes out on loan. Who decides when a player is ready for that. I feel the balance of probability is that Poch would be guided by those who know the player best. That they'd have a chat about certain players and decide how to proceed from there. It's not all 'on Poch' as people used to like to say.

Is a player ready to go out on loan
Would a player benefit more from being around the squad/training with the first team etc etc
Can we actually find that player a suitable club
If we can, does that club want to take him, does that player want to go there

For sure there are instances where we can't understand why this or that player didn't get farmed out but we don't know the inside story enough to make a definitive judgement on it, certainly not enough to blame it on Pochettino. IMO if we asked the question of someone who knows the full story and actually got an answer, we'd look at it and go ""oh yeah, makes sense I suppose". At the end of the day, some players go out on loan, some don't......

We all know about Urban Legends right? IMO there's a lot of 'Spurban Legends" floating around SC, people say stuff often enough and it becomes fact. This player sulks (he doesn't), that player is too big for his boots because he points (He's not) and so on........I think this youth thing, in the grand scheme of Poch's tenure isn't a massive deal but it's seemingly become one. No idea why but for me........spurban legend.

*Reads the above

Fucking hell, I don't know what's happening to me, it must be that osmosis thing again :D

Er, excuse me. I’ll have you know that excessive pointing is the single most reliable indicator of a latent personality disorder that we know of. Fact. End of. Somebody on SC told me. :cautious:
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
See this is another thing I'm not entirely sure I agree on, the need for him to loan out players or indeed that he's entirely responsible for not doing so. This is again one of those things we decide upon without knowing the facts. Do we know who is actually responsible for youth development? What input does he have on deciding who goes out on loan. Who decides when a player is ready for that. I feel the balance of probability is that Poch would be guided by those who know the player best. That they'd have a chat about certain players and decide how to proceed from there. It's not all 'on Poch' as people used to like to say.

Is a player ready to go out on loan
Would a player benefit more from being around the squad/training with the first team etc etc
Can we actually find that player a suitable club
If we can, does that club want to take him, does that player want to go there

For sure there are instances where we can't understand why this or that player didn't get farmed out but we don't know the inside story enough to make a definitive judgement on it, certainly not enough to blame it on Pochettino. IMO if we asked the question of someone who knows the full story and actually got an answer, we'd look at it and go ""oh yeah, makes sense I suppose". At the end of the day, some players go out on loan, some don't......

We all know about Urban Legends right? IMO there's a lot of 'Spurban Legends" floating around SC, people say stuff often enough and it becomes fact. This player sulks (he doesn't), that player is too big for his boots because he points (He's not) and so on........I think this youth thing, in the grand scheme of Poch's tenure isn't a massive deal but it's seemingly become one. No idea why but for me........spurban legend.

*Reads the above

Fucking hell, I don't know what's happening to me, it must be that osmosis thing again :D

I think we've also had some loan outs that looked good on paper but were not at all good in reality. Onomah is the prime example and Clarke's loan back to Leeds was a waste of time. I can't say I'm impressed by where TJ Eyoma has ended up seeing as he's meant to be pretty close to Tanganga on the development curve either. Same goes for Jack Roles. ITK alluded to some players having had enough of zero opportunities and it looks like Oakley-Booth was one of those. The only one I can think of who seems to be benefitting from his loan is Luke Amos but I'm sure others know far more about this topic than I do.
 

Stamford

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2015
4,122
19,830
He's definitely a legend here but I don't agree with MoPo loan policy at all, thought it was to the detriment of the players and at times like with Edwards he put quite a lot of pressure eg the Messi comparisons.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
If I recall correctly, Winks is the only youth player that has been promoted into the seniors by Poch (I do not include the occasional bench warmers like Onomah, Edwards and co). Players like Bentaleb, Townsend and Mason he inherited from Sherwood's / AVB's reign, where they were then moved on. My point is the myth Poch promoted and encouraged the youth was exactly that, a myth.
Mason was started by Poch. Redknapp was playing Townsend in UEFA, Bentaleb and Kane were the ones that started under Sherwood.
 

Archibald&Crooks

Aegina Expat
Admin
Feb 1, 2005
55,533
204,721
I think we've also had some loan outs that looked good on paper but were not at all good in reality. Onomah is the prime example and Clarke's loan back to Leeds was a waste of time. I can't say I'm impressed by where TJ Eyoma has ended up seeing as he's meant to be pretty close to Tanganga on the development curve either. Same goes for Jack Roles. ITK alluded to some players having had enough of zero opportunities and it looks like Oakley-Booth was one of those. The only one I can think of who seems to be benefitting from his loan is Luke Amos but I'm sure others know far more about this topic than I do.
True. Even if a player goes on loan, what's to say it'll actually benefit him, if you can't be sure of that then how can anyone say not going hindered any particular player with any degree of certainty.
 

RichieS

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2004
11,916
16,436
Mason was started by Poch. Redknapp was playing Townsend in UEFA, Bentaleb and Kane were the ones that started under Sherwood.
Mason was perfect for the start of Poch's reign - Spurs through and through and willing to give everything on the pitch for the team/club. I was surprised that he was out the door as quickly as he was tbh, especially as he seemed to have shaken off the constant injuries that blighted his youth career.
 

GetSpurredOn

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2006
5,022
8,922
Overall, not the worst window. I do still worry about the inability of our scouting setup to identify the quality we need. This is where I hope we can get someone like Luis Campos in before the summer, to provide some serious structure and vision.
The upsides could well far outweigh the lack of a striker. A change to 433, as some are suggesting may be upon us, looking at what we have, could negate the need for an out and out target man initially, focusing on pace and technique. With a shift to 3 CM’s, we may hopefully see more opportunities for Skipp, plus Parrott getting minutes off the bench as our only legit CF. Tanganga likewise hopefully getting minutes with Walker-Peters and Rose both gone, whilst he may more likely play FB for now, that could help his development longer term for CB.
Secondly, the shift in focus on the development side, getting players out to experience actual first team football, see who sinks and who swims, rather than leave them playing U23 football. Also letting those leave. who may have stagnated, allowing a clearer path for the talents from the age below to step up.
What I do like is all the positivity around plans for the summer, seems we know what we want to do already, and have a profile of the sort of player we want. Young hungry players who are both athletic and technical, not just one or other.
 

$hoguN

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2005
26,626
34,700
Overall, not the worst window. I do still worry about the inability of our scouting setup to identify the quality we need. This is where I hope we can get someone like Luis Campos in before the summer, to provide some serious structure and vision.
The upsides could well far outweigh the lack of a striker. A change to 433, as some are suggesting may be upon us, looking at what we have, could negate the need for an out and out target man initially, focusing on pace and technique. With a shift to 3 CM’s, we may hopefully see more opportunities for Skipp, plus Parrott getting minutes off the bench as our only legit CF. Tanganga likewise hopefully getting minutes with Walker-Peters and Rose both gone, whilst he may more likely play FB for now, that could help his development longer term for CB.
Secondly, the shift in focus on the development side, getting players out to experience actual first team football, see who sinks and who swims, rather than leave them playing U23 football. Also letting those leave. who may have stagnated, allowing a clearer path for the talents from the age below to step up.
What I do like is all the positivity around plans for the summer, seems we know what we want to do already, and have a profile of the sort of player we want. Young hungry players who are both athletic and technical, not just one or other.
I get the feeling that people over estimate just how much scouting a sporting director does. Campos would be a facilitator, he would work with the scouts to identify targets for different positions. He isn’t going to be scouting hem himself
 

GetSpurredOn

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2006
5,022
8,922
I get the feeling that people over estimate just how much scouting a sporting director does. Campos would be a facilitator, he would work with the scouts to identify targets for different positions. He isn’t going to be scouting hem himself

I understand that, but I expect the appointment of an experienced DoF to sharpen up our scouting structure as a whole. More about providing focus than actual doing the legwork. DoF skillset is more about building networks of scouts and contacts, the utilising them.
 

carmeldevil

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2018
7,588
45,112
Groundhog Phil came out and was dazzled by the new stadium and bemused by the failure of Spurs getting a striker, he didn’t scurry back in. So spring is near.
 

carpediem1906

COYS singapore spurs
Sep 3, 2011
816
2,391
I think the idea of Poch promoting youth is seen differently at club/professional level than it is by us. He gave enough of them a taste of first team football no matter how fleeting and for a young footballer that's a no small thing. Even being in the squad or travelling to games would be a fantastic learning experience for many of them. For us, it's so what he didn't get much game time and that's about it.

The way I look at it is if they were good enough, they'd have been picked more often. I don't care how many actually made the breakthrough, Poch gave young footballers a chance IMO, its not exclusive to promoting from within. There seems to be this acceptance that he had to 'discover' them or be the first one to have picked them and I don't feel that way either, IIRC (and I may well be wrong here) we had one of the youngest, if not the youngest team in the Premier League competing at the very highest level and that's no mean achievement, no matter who was responsible for discovering them, signing them or feeding them on Farley Rusks. He took a bunch of young footballers and made them into a top team. IMO that's where he got his reputation from.

There's also another factor. As we got more and more 'successful' it became harder to do. It's much more difficult to take someone from the youth team and give them as lot of game time. Had he done so and not got results you can bet both your bollocks we'd have been on his case for not taking it seriously, picking the wrong team and all the rest of it. Could he have done that a bit more? Probably but I really don't think we missed out on the next big thing because he didn't.

Anyway, I think that overall he did more than OK for us and I won't spend too much time dwelling on wether or not he did this and that, all managers do stuff differently and we'll all have a different view on it. Mine might well be a load of bollocks though TBF :D

Overall, the guy is a legend, sadly it went wrong, probably due to a number of factors most of which we've all named but we'll never truly have the truth on.

Thank you for reading me, my names A&C, goodnight.

who are you, and what have you done with the real A&C? Did the Goat log in to the wrong account?

Most folks focused on the one disappointment of the window - striker - but those who are imo missing out on the big picture >> which is that we completed 17 deals in all!

in’s: Vorm loan, GF loan, GLC made perm, Stevie

out’s: Eriksen, Maghoma, Oakley-Boothe all perm, Rose, KWP, Clarke, CCV, Georgiou, Sterling, Shashoua, Austin, Eyoma, Tracey all loans

Considering that (1) this is the winter window where deals are notoriously difficult and (2) If even 2 out of that bunch comes back banging on door to first team in summer, it’s a successful window and I think Jose and Levy will be pleased with the progress that we are making in the “painful rebuild”
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,586
5,861
Demebele and Eriksen controlled games. Dembele left and Eriksen had to move back and we weren't as fluid. We don't yet have two players who can replace those two and even if we did the current system(s) and structure is vague and not possession based enough to create control. We have signed some very promising players but will there be the control and fluidity that Poch managed to create in his pomp? I still can't see an exciting philosophy and structure that the players have bought into.

I think lo Celso and NDombele could give us what we never got to see..... Dembele and Modric. Eriksen had an amazing eye for the pass but I think Lo Celso has already shown he can see the pass but he can dribble too and put a foot in. NDombele already showing he has the strength on the ball and the injury proneness to be like Dembele, now just needs to add the defensive side.
 

Scouseyid

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
283
1,228
who are you, and what have you done with the real A&C? Did the Goat log in to the wrong account?

Most folks focused on the one disappointment of the window - striker - but those who are imo missing out on the big picture >> which is that we completed 17 deals in all!

in’s: Vorm loan, GF loan, GLC made perm, Stevie

out’s: Eriksen, Maghoma, Oakley-Boothe all perm, Rose, KWP, Clarke, CCV, Georgiou, Sterling, Shashoua, Austin, Eyoma, Tracey all loans

Considering that (1) this is the winter window where deals are notoriously difficult and (2) If even 2 out of that bunch comes back banging on door to first team in summer, it’s a successful window and I think Jose and Levy will be pleased with the progress that we are making in the “painful rebuild”
I'd like to second this statement. It's obvious the steps that have been taken & I'm wholly onboard this rebuild, maybe with a few niggles over JM still though. But now it's our time to support, to stick it out through thick & thin & get behind the XI that start each match.

Bring it on!
 

soflapaul

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
8,875
14,963
In the cold light of day, what Dovakhiin wrote
I think the idea of Poch promoting youth is seen differently at club/professional level than it is by us. He gave enough of them a taste of first team football no matter how fleeting and for a young footballer that's a no small thing. Even being in the squad or travelling to games would be a fantastic learning experience for many of them. For us, it's so what he didn't get much game time and that's about it.

Thank you for reading me, my names A&C, goodnight.

Wow. While the Dr's missives are good in a plebian sort of way , Mr. Hyde's writing abilities are sublime. Great post.
 

Jody

SC Supporter
Sep 11, 2004
7,005
5,825
Looking forward to the rest of the season...should be a good buzz around the squad and it'll begin to feel more like Jose's team. Exciting times.
:whistle: Haven't celebrated like that for a long time!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top