The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 16th July

[daryl hannah]

@daryl hannah

Genuinely curious why you disagree.

The argument people make is ..
- our start to the season is poor.
- we make signings late.
- the late signings are causing the poor start.

Now obviously some reason has to be given for this conclusion and I think the most powerful one is that by making these signings late, the new players don’t get a proper poch pre-season and so don’t play as well.

But for this to hold true the following must be true:
- The late signings must be playing in the games where we have bad form.
- The players’ form must only recover once they have a poch preseason. Otherwise their poor performance could be down to the usual hiccoughs we see with a lot of new signings that typically take months to get right eg adjusting to a new country, getting in tune with teammates. If these alternative reasons are correct then signing them earlier would not solve our early season form...

In fact these players have a minimal role in the early season games and so cannot be responsible for our poor form. What we find is that poch beds these players in slowly. This is true regardless of whether the players were signed early or late.

This must mean there are one or more other causes of the poor early form but it cannot be because signings are made late.

Very open to being told I’m wrong on any of this !!

Have messaged you.

 

[dk-yid]

Apparently his Mrs offered her unwanted opinion on the club too…..

My missus offers her unwanted opinion on lots of stuff... I think I might transfer her for a younger model.

 

[hellava_tough]

But sellng to buy is misleading, its not about raising funds, its simply good house keeping and being in control.....

But isn't 'good house keeping' quite easy to do?

For example, if you wanted Toby off the books, you could put him on the market for £15m and he'd be gone in a couple of days

So it's clearly evident that the senior management still want to get as close to 'market-value' with player sales as they can

That's understandable and you can't begrudge them that, but it still has the potential to have a negative impact on the squad recruitment process and subsequently, on-field performances

Simply put, does the chairman take a hit on the value of players during sales, but at the same time maximize 'recruiting potential'?

Or does he get the best market value for players during sales, but at the same time take a hit on 'recruiting potential'?

I think we all know which approach our chairman prioritizes

 

[stormfly]

I feel we’ve just hit the ceiling of quality in the squad unless we spend a ridiculous amount of money and wages. I can’t see us improving on Dembele and Toby both are class players. There are only a handful of players left in the squad that I feel we could upgrade on (Sissoko, Serge, Lloronte) by spending sensible amounts. If we stick to our usual transfer model, then I can’t see us coming out of the window in a stronger position. First priority should just be to get our best players signed up to better contracts.

 

[rawhide]

I feel we’ve just hit the ceiling of quality in the squad unless we spend a ridiculous amount of money and wages. I can’t see us improving on Dembele and Toby both are class players. There are only a handful of players left in the squad that I feel we could upgrade on (Sissoko, Serge, Lloronte) by spending sensible amounts. If we stick to our usual transfer model, then I can’t see us coming out of the window in a stronger position. First priority should just be to get our best players signed up to better contracts.

That’s clearly not the model we work to. We buy potential and develop it into players that improve the starting 11/squad

 

[Maxtremist]

But isn't 'good house keeping' quite easy to do?

For example, if you wanted Toby off the books, you could put him on the market for £15m and he'd be gone in a couple of days

So it's clearly evident that the senior management still want to get as close to 'market-value' with player sales as they can

That's understandable and you can't begrudge them that, but it still has the potential to have a negative impact on the squad recruitment process and subsequently, on-field performances

Simply put, does the chairman take a hit on the value of players during sales, but at the same time maximize 'recruiting potential'?

Or does he get the best market value for players during sales, but at the same time take a hit on 'recruiting potential'?

I think we all know which approach our chairman prioritizes

I feel, along with anything, the answer lies somewhere within the middle. I understand your putting it simply in putting it down to two options but as often is the case these things are never simple.

We could put Toby on the market for 15 mil as you (jokingly) suggest... but that means any of our rivals get him for next to nothing so that's not only taking a hit financially, it's strengthening others massively. It's not just about the value of how much we sell someone for but who we sell them too. As it seems to be Man Utd as the main/only suitors, we then need to weigh up how much it costs to strengthen a rival, how much of a hit can we take there.

To keep it on ITK, Poch wants Toby out. But that doesn't mean we sell him for nothing. Levy tries to both get him out but also get the best deal possible for him. So it's that grey area inbetween taking a hit (likely accepting less than the 77mil or whatever is being branded for toby PLUS selling to Man Utd) but still getting some semblance of market value to him and time to get other players in.

 

[shelfmonkey]

Surely it's worse than Poch going to bat for him and then him asking for more?

Don't get me wrong that would be dickish still and hard to blame Poch if he didn't want to forgive, but I also don't believe it couldn't be resolved with Toby eating some humble pie either.

Unlike Walker this all seemed to come out while he was injured so shouldn't have affected the first team as much.

Personally I made peace with his sale a long time ago and I'm a big fan of Sanchez. There are some exciting options such as De Ligt out there and whilst I like the 3CB formation I don't think we'll stick to it every week (and if Toby were to renew I'd imagine he wants guarantees of starts). If we get Martial in return and a decent replacement then it's the ideal scenario for me.

We are NOT getting Martial!

 

[SpartanSpur]

We are NOT getting Martial!

Please share your ITK then (put it through the mods first obviously)

 

[shelfmonkey]

Please share your ITK then (put it through the mods first obviously)

Tea leaves.

 

[luptic]

Never change Spurs, never change.
I don't know why people are losing their shit, we hear it every season, new outlook to signings etc.
The only difference this season is amount of players unavailable to Poch etc for pre-season.
Im not even worried about West Ham and Arsenal signing players its the current 1st game of the season weakness we will have.

 

[George94]

Never change Spurs, never change.
I don't know why people are losing their shit, we hear it every season, new outlook to signings etc.
The only difference this season is amount of players unavailable to Poch etc for pre-season.
Im not even worried about West Ham and Arsenal signing players its the current 1st game of the season weakness we will have.

And then we'll start the season slow again and play catch up in the title race

 

[WiganSpur]

Why don’t you think it’s poch’s famously gruelling pre-season?

So many people assume it is the late dealings which affects us but I find no evidence for that.

2016/17 - first game of the season we had one new player in the starting XI- victor wanyama. Otherwise same as the dream team from season before.

2017/18 - first game - NO new signings !!

Why were the 10 players from season before not up to it ? Surely going with continuity against other sides trying to bed in players is an advantage ?

Poch famously integrates player’s very slowly to the first XI anyway.

I cannot see why people think late signings has an effect. What have I missed ..or is this a silly myth that needs to die ?

So what you're saying is that you disagree with Pochettino, in that getting new signings integrated into the first team during pre-season brings zero benefit.

You are well within your rights to do so, I get shot down for disagreeing with him. But just pointing out that Pochettino has been quoted saying it's important to get players in for pre-season.

 

[LeParisien]

So what you're saying is that you disagree with Pochettino, in that getting new signings integrated into the first team during pre-season brings zero benefit.

You are well within your rights to do so, I get shot down for disagreeing with him. But just pointing out that Pochettino has been quoted saying it's important to get players in for pre-season.

Quote?

Edit: what I’m saying is that our early season poor form cannot be blamed on late signings. There may be other good reasons for getting signings done early.

 

[WiganSpur]

Quote?

Edit: what I’m saying is that our early season poor form cannot be blamed on late signings.

The quote is everywhere on this forum. This thread isn't for digging it up so I won't.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

So with the transfer window for transfers in closing for English clubs way before the window for selling does at the end of August surely the new rules will only hinder our chances of a successful window this summer.

I have 8 players (Toby, Carter-Vickers, Dembele, Sissoko, Onomah, Nkoudou, Janssen and Llorente) that are either clearly available, fringe players we'd consider selling or not classed as key players for the first team squad that we could move on if required/ necessary for the first team squad.

I don't fancy Onomah or Carter-Vickers will due to their home developed status but there's 8 players that will all probably move on towards the latter stages of the window way after our buying window closes.

I'm guessing that if we are able to only shift the Sissokos, Janssens & Llorentes that we'd only go for squad level quality. If we are able to get something moving with Toby or Mousa that the replacements would surely have to be first XI quality and higher up our wanted list.

This news could also explain the delay in the Grealish announcement by the way

 

[SDogg]

So with the transfer window for transfers in closing for English clubs way before the window for selling does at the end of August surely the new rules will only hinder our chances of a successful window this summer.

I have 8 players (Toby, Carter-Vickers, Dembele, Sissoko, Onomah, Nkoudou, Janssen and Llorente) that are either clearly available, fringe players we'd consider selling or not classed as key players for the first team squad that we could move on if required/ necessary for the first team squad.

I don't fancy Onomah or Carter-Vickers will due to their home developed status but there's 8 players that will all probably move on towards the latter stages of the window way after our buying window closes.

I'm guessing that if we are able to only shift the Sissokos, Janssens & Llorentes that we'd only go for squad level quality. If we are able to get something moving with Toby or Mousa that the replacements would surely have to be first XI quality and higher up our wanted list.

This news could also explain the delay in the Grealish announcement by the way

Trix mentioned in update 50 that Grealish delay was down to villa financials

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

So with light of the news we need to ship out before we bring in who seems most likely to leave and what signings are going to be difficult to bring in based on the ones we have being difficult to budge?

Sissoko out -Grealish in

Nkoudou, Janssen, Llorente out - Attacking midfielder/ versatile forward in (cough cough, Martial)

Dembele out - Haidara, De Jong, Rabiot or Gomes in (although I've got this feeling that Grealish will be the only one incoming and partner Winks as well as with one of Sissoko or Dembele, whoever we aren't able to move on for the coming season as our CM options)

Alderweireld out - De Ligt or Pavard in. ( depending on the progression of Foyth he could get a promotion up the squad and either Carter-Vickers goes into Foyths slot from last season or we invest in a new youngster that comes out of nowhere. Wouldn't be too happy with this though, the squad needs depth)

As far as I see it if money isn't the issue, squad size is we only need to move two players on out of Sissoko, Nkoudou, Janssen or Llorente in order to bring in a new midfielder and a new attacking threat.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

Trix mentioned in update 50 that Grealish delay was down to villa financials

So once the Villa financials are ironed out we'll have Dembele, Winks, Grealish & Sissoko battling it out for 1 position in midfield.

We really do need to move either Dembele or Sissoko on this summer so we can get another strong looking long term midfielder in. I don't thing a central midfield consisting of an aging Dembele, a not good enough Sissoko, a wet behind the ears Winks and a physically unproven Grealish is strong enough for a top 4/ title challenge.

 

[robertgoulet]

Just drop Mous, Mouss, GKN and Vinny off in Istanbul along with an invoice for 70M. Done and done.

As always, appreciate the info @Trix. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

[Maxtremist]

So once the Villa financials are ironed out we'll have Dembele, Winks, Grealish & Sissoko battling it out for 1 position in midfield.

We really do need to move either Dembele or Sissoko on this summer so we can get another strong looking long term midfielder in. I don't thing a central midfield consisting of an aging Dembele, a not good enough Sissoko, a wet behind the ears Winks and a physically unproven Grealish is strong enough for a top 4/ title challenge.

Didn't that pretty much get us top 4 last year? And the year before that? Yes, Dembele is ageing but in acknowledging that, Winks is also maturing so the wet behind the ears thing feels a little out of place. So we have the midfield that got the CM's that got us top 4 the past few years, with less injuries (hopefully) now that Winks is back and now adding a talent in Grealish (who seems all but done according to ITK).
If you're asking for a strong looking long term midfielder... is that as well as Winks and Grealish?