The beginning of the end...

[danielneeds]

What’s been so poor about Winks? Or is this just him being entirely blamed for playing sideways passes while we ignore the absolute lack of any decent movement upfront?

There are way, way bigger issues with our play than Harry Winks at the moment.

I think the criticism of Winks is just misplaced, even though he does have to improve certain areas of his game. The problem is the blend in midfield is wrong. You can have all different types of players making up your engine room, but there needs to be a balance of skills and abilities. At the moment, our balance is wrong and it's effecting the team.

You talk about lack of movement up front, but players eventually stop making runs if the ball never comes. We've a had a line breaking forward passing problem for a while, and the hope is that Ndombele and Lo Celso will ease this, but at the moment we're still mired in it.

 

[Maske2g]

How many teams would even be still in it in injury time? It was a crazy game and we played our part. A lot of teams would have crumbled after the early goal.

The losing culture at our club runs so deeply throughout, that we clutch at straws with statements like that. I will never forget meeting two scousers in Madrid who were so adamant the cup was their's, while we all sat there saying, we didn't think we had a chance. They actually had the 6th cup on their flag already. They said "How can you think like that" and to a man we said, "Because we are Tottenham" The mentality runs right through the clubs. We are losers, and it shows on this board everyday, when fans cling to hope that bad players are good, or that we are now a big club despite not winning anything.

In the City scenario, I was as overjoyed to win as anyone, and didn't care a less whether or not we deserved it. But in the long run, it's not going to work out when you defend in big games like that. And sure enough, it didn't.

 

[dudu]

In the 2nd game I saw some of the worst defending I've ever seen. We absolutely melted at the back to a man. They can all have a say for knob of the match.

Trippier for the first, absolutely no where near him and no interest in getting near him.

2nd goal. Rose, same as above.

3rd. Players falling over while passing on runners. Jan's feeble attempt at the front post.

4th. Embarrasing. Actually shit their pants, we had about 5 players to their 2.

The non goal. . Not enough room on the page. Lloris, Eriksen, Toby, Take you pick. Absolutely shit the bed.

LOL, you're saying this while at the same time telling @Dougal we were lucky because they 'gave us chances'. Surely the same has to count for both teams, their defending was shit too mate. We had more chances than the ones we put away too, they may have had more but we were far from shit on either night of football.

You're rewriting history, in my opinion.

 

[Maske2g]

Doesn't really mean anything considering his original point was that we scored 4 goals.

No. The original point, was before yours, and that was that we played well. Did we balls.

 

[Maske2g]

LOL, you're saying this while at the same time telling @Dougal we were lucky because they 'gave us chances'. Surely the same has to count for both teams, their defending was shit too mate. We had more chances than the ones we put away too, they may have had more but we were far from shit on either night of football.

You're rewriting history, in my opinion.

If you think we deserved to win the tie based on that performance your hope should be bottled up and given to Orphans. Its delusional.

 

[Lo Amo Speroni]

Right I have thought long and hard about this since the thread started.

Poch is pissing me off in press conferences and the team are playing poorly ATM.

Still. COYS

 

[rossdapep]

I think the criticism of Winks is just misplaced, even though he does have to improve certain areas of his game. The problem is the blend in midfield is wrong. You can have all different types of players making up your engine room, but there needs to be a balance of skills and abilities. At the moment, our balance is wrong and it's effecting the team.

You talk about lack of movement up front, but players eventually stop making runs if the ball never comes. We've a had a line breaking forward passing problem for a while, and the hope is that Ndombele and Lo Celso will ease this, but at the moment we're still mired in it.

Also Winks can't take risks on the ball. He can't drive forward unless he knows someone is covering. I imagine if you stuck Dier behind him he'd play with more freedom and be a bit more forceful.

 

[danielneeds]

The losing culture at our club runs so deeply throughout, that we clutch at straws with statements like that. I will never forget meeting two scousers in Madrid who were so adamant the cup was their's, while we all sat there saying, we didn't think we had a chance. They actually had the 6th cup on their flag already. They said "How can you think like that" and to a man we said, "Because we are Tottenham" The mentality runs right through the clubs. We are losers, and it shows on this board everyday, when fans cling to hope that bad players are good, or that we are now a big club despite not winning anything.

In the City scenario, I was as overjoyed to win as anyone, and didn't care a less whether or not we deserved it. But in the long run, it's not going to work out when you defend in big games like that. And sure enough, it didn't.

It really sounds like this is problem that you hate yourself for....

 

[Shadydan]

If you think we deserved to win the tie based on that performance your hope should be bottled up and given to Orphans. Its delusional.

Did City deserve to win the tie based on their performance then?

 

[hughy]

If you think we deserved to win the tie based on that performance your hope should be bottled up and given to Orphans. Its delusional.

Over the two performances we deserved to win the tie. That's not up for debate.

 

[Maske2g]

I think the criticism of Winks is just misplaced, even though he does have to improve certain areas of his game. The problem is the blend in midfield is wrong. You can have all different types of players making up your engine room, but there needs to be a balance of skills and abilities. At the moment, our balance is wrong and it's effecting the team.

You talk about lack of movement up front, but players eventually stop making runs if the ball never comes. We've a had a line breaking forward passing problem for a while, and the hope is that Ndombele and Lo Celso will ease this, but at the moment we're still mired in it.

I agree. Winks isn't good enough to make up for Sissokos lack of technical ability. That's the unfortunate fact. I think he would work ok in a midfield pair. But with him playing in a Tony Kroos like role, he doesn't have the partners, or the ability himself to do it now.

 

[Dougal]

The losing culture at our club runs so deeply throughout, that we clutch at straws with statements like that. I will never forget meeting two scousers in Madrid who were so adamant the cup was their's, while we all sat there saying, we didn't think we had a chance. They actually had the 6th cup on their flag already. They said "How can you think like that" and to a man we said, "Because we are Tottenham" The mentality runs right through the clubs. We are losers, and it shows on this board everyday, when fans cling to hope that bad players are good, or that we are now a big club despite not winning anything.

In the City scenario, I was as overjoyed to win as anyone, and didn't care a less whether or not we deserved it. But in the long run, it's not going to work out when you defend in big games like that. And sure enough, it didn't.

It’s easier to have a winners mentality when you have won. Liverpool fans probably put a star on the year before too but no one talks about that.

 

[danielneeds]

Also Winks can't take risks on the ball. He can't drive forward unless he knows someone is covering. I imagine if you stuck Dier behind him he'd play with more freedom and be a bit more forceful.

That's the diffeence between playing as a 6 or an 8, really. Taking risks is not the same as playing progressive passes, switching the play more. He should be practicing switching the play on his left foot for a couple of hours every week. If he can open up the pitch on both sides, he'd be far more effective. These are the things that players like Scholes and Lampard practiced and practiced all the time to become the best.

 

[Spursfan1414]

I don’t think Winks is an issue here, no evidence, just a crowbarred agenda.

Same I think people see him get a lot of the ball when we’re struggling to break down teams that sit back and therefore assume that it’s his fault when it’s a team issue, not a Winks issue.

I think the criticism of Winks is just misplaced, even though he does have to improve certain areas of his game. The problem is the blend in midfield is wrong. You can have all different types of players making up your engine room, but there needs to be a balance of skills and abilities. At the moment, our balance is wrong and it's effecting the team.

You talk about lack of movement up front, but players eventually stop making runs if the ball never comes. We've a had a line breaking forward passing problem for a while, and the hope is that Ndombele and Lo Celso will ease this, but at the moment we're still mired in it.

He’s certainly not perfect but I don’t think he’s the cause of our issues at all. There’s always a question of is the movement not there because the passes aren’t coming or are the passes not coming because the movement isn’t there but in this case I think it’s definitely the latter. Our movement has always been poor when Dele isn’t playing, especially against teams who sit deep, it’s not like when you watch our games this season Winks is turning down obvious forward passes for the safe option, most of the time there’s just little on for him. I was at the Villa game and you could see him shouting at our forward players several times while he was off the ball, was very clear he felt they weren’t giving him options.

 

[danielneeds]

I agree. Winks isn't good enough to make up for Sissokos lack of technical ability. That's the unfortunate fact. I think he would work ok in a midfield pair. But with him playing in a Tony Kroos like role, he doesn't have the partners, or the ability himself to do it now.

"Isn't good enough?" No, I don't think it's right to say that yet. He has real skill and bravery, but playing midfield in the PL is like a game of chess sometimes. It's all about anticipation and making decisions. The lad is still learning and has never had the opportunity of playing 30 or 40 games uninterrupted in a season because of injury. If the injury problems persist then maybe it will be time to look elsewhere because I don't see him have the chance to put his game together if he can't build up his experience.

 

[Maske2g]

It really sounds like this is problem that you hate yourself for....

What, not accepting mediocrity? Yeah, ok...

 

[Dougal]

Same I think people see him get a lot of the ball when we’re struggling to break down teams that sit back and therefore assume that it’s his fault when it’s a team issue, not a Winks issue.



He’s certainly not perfect but I don’t think he’s the cause of our issues at all. There’s always a question of is the movement not there because the passes aren’t coming or are the passes not coming because the movement isn’t there but in this case I think it’s definitely the latter. Our movement has always been poor when Dele isn’t playing, especially against teams who sit deep, it’s not like when you watch our games this season Winks is turning down obvious forward passes for the safe option, most of the time there’s just little on for him. I was at the Villa game and you could see him shouting at our forward players several times while he was off the ball, was very clear he felt they weren’t giving him options.

If he gets the ball in space he always looks forward. The space was there outside the Newcastle penalty area.

 

[Maske2g]

Over the two performances we deserved to win the tie. That's not up for debate.

Here come the rose tinted brigade.

 

[danielneeds]

What, not accepting mediocrity? Yeah, ok...

But you said you were there saying you expected to lose to the Liverpool fans?

 

[Dougal]

What, not accepting mediocrity? Yeah, ok...

I’ve seen mediocrity. This isn’t it.




Another one for you @Everlasting Seconds