"Sunderland ‘Til I Die" - netflix documentary

spursfan77

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McGeady wasn’t too happy with Coleman’s managerial ability. I’ve never been too convinced by him either. Seems like anyone in that job was facing a hard task though.

One thing that I did ponder. I wonder what the producers of the programme thought when they commissioned it. I bet they didn’t expect such a dramatic fall from grace and relegation. Imagine how boring it would have been had they just finished mid table. The producers lucked out.
 

Marty

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McGeady wasn’t too happy with Coleman’s managerial ability. I’ve never been too convinced by him either. Seems like anyone in that job was facing a hard task though.

One thing that I did ponder. I wonder what the producers of the programme thought when they commissioned it. I bet they didn’t expect such a dramatic fall from grace and relegation. Imagine how boring it would have been had they just finished mid table. The producers lucked out.
The producers are Sunderland fans, and it was commissioned as a rise from the ashes redemption story that would hopefully end in promotion.

They went on the Totally Football League podcast a couple of weeks ago, it was a really interesting chat.
 

ChristianBaler

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The producers are Sunderland fans, and it was commissioned as a rise from the ashes redemption story that would hopefully end in promotion.

They went on the Totally Football League podcast a couple of weeks ago, it was a really interesting chat.
The producers are fans?

I find that odd, because if you remember the away game (cant remember against who) there's an incident where the traveling fans break that camera the crew were using?
 

Marty

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The producers are fans?

I find that odd, because if you remember the away game (cant remember against who) there's an incident where the traveling fans break that camera the crew were using?
Fans not liking what other fans are doing is hardly new, is it? Just look at the backlash against AFTV when things were at their worst.
 

alfie103

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Whilst watching the documentary, you get the impression that Lewis Grabban is a complete ****.
 

THFCSPURS19

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Yeah I also thought it was really good. I doubt many people who aren't big football fans would watch it, but the 'twist' where Sunderland are obvs relegated after hoping for promotion would actually be a really interesting watch for most people.
 

BoringOldFan

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Whilst watching the documentary, you get the impression that Lewis Grabban is a complete ****.
Fans weren't happy when he scored for Villa, were they?

I got the impression the Makems were more irate with Jack Rodwell. £60k a week, no game time, ieed up valuable cash that could have got new players in.
 

danielneeds

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Just finished it. Binged it since last night.

Thought Coleman game across well as a person but why on earth did he not manage their star striker better? I know maybe Grabben’s attitude sucked a bit but jeez, he started hooking him and Pissing the player off and as a result they lose their goalscorer and weren’t able to replace him which directly contributes to them going down. In fact I’d say it was probably the biggest factor. You just can’t lose a striker like that and as other players alluded to, Coleman surely should have managed Grabben better.

You get the impression Coleman didn’t like him and thought it would be easier to replace the striker, but in the end they ended up with a kid in Fletcher who couldn’t score in a brothel.

I think that was a major fuck up by Coleman. Should have kept Grabben happy till the summer and then made the change.

Would love to Chuck one up that player liaison woman too!
The problem was Coleman didn't quite grasp the seriousness of the situation when he came in. Plus he'd just come off the back of the Wales job, where he'd had a super-tight bunch of players who'd go through walls for him. He then comes across this little prick Grabben, who's obviously their best player, and acting like he's Johnny Big Bollocks, so he thinks he can get rid of him and get someone else.

It was obviously a massive, massive mistake, as was not bringing in a super-experienced keeper, who could steady the ship in defence. They needed to find a 35-year-old with loads of experience who wouldn't start shitting himself every time a goal went in.
 

'O Zio

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Fans weren't happy when he scored for Villa, were they?

I got the impression the Makems were more irate with Jack Rodwell. £60k a week, no game time, ieed up valuable cash that could have got new players in.
I'm in two minds about Rodwell to be honest. Yes he's a complete **** generally so I understand the hatred for him, but at the same time it's not really his fault he's in the situation, it's the club's fault. They're expecting him to just walk away from millions of pounds to do them a favour but why should he? Especially given that they've then left him to rot with the kids as a punishment so if he did agree to leave, he'd only get a really shit contract at another club. If he's on 60k/week at Sunderland for the next X amount of months, why on earth would he walk away from that to sign a contract for 10k/week at e.g. Southend or whoever? It just doesn't make any sense for him to do that. Yes I can understand that it's hurting the club but at the end of the day he's got himself and his family to look after first and foremost, not his employer and the mess they've created for themselves.

IMO they should've either sold him while his stock was still half-decent and agreed to pay the difference in the wages, which would at least somewhat help the situation, or if they were keeping him on, they should've played him and made him part of the team so that at least they're getting the benefit of him playing even if he was too expensive. Getting stuck paying him the money but not making him available for selection, and all the while reducing his value to other clubs even further, was about the worst possible way to handle the situation.

Like I say, he seems like a **** generally speaking, but I don't think the fact that he wouldn't bail sunderland out of their own mess at great personal expense is what makes him one. They've treated him just as badly as he's treated them to be honest and they just wanted to use him as a scapegoat when they didn't have money to spend. It was Short who decided to completely cut off the money supply and Rodwell was a convenient way to say "If only it wasn't for Rodwell we'd be buying players all over the place" when in actual fact the lack of transfer fees had very little to do with Rodwell.

EDIT Before someone points this out, yes I'm aware that he did leave the club in the end, but I'm talking about it in the context of at the time.
 

spursfan77

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The problem was Coleman didn't quite grasp the seriousness of the situation when he came in. Plus he'd just come off the back of the Wales job, where he'd had a super-tight bunch of players who'd go through walls for him. He then comes across this little prick Grabben, who's obviously their best player, and acting like he's Johnny Big Bollocks, so he thinks he can get rid of him and get someone else.

It was obviously a massive, massive mistake, as was not bringing in a super-experienced keeper, who could steady the ship in defence. They needed to find a 35-year-old with loads of experience who wouldn't start shitting himself every time a goal went in.
They brought in Lee Camp who seemed utterly shocked that he’d been signed in the first place. He looked pretty terrible. I know they had no money but the free transfers and loans they brought in weren’t the best.
 

danielneeds

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They brought in Lee Camp who seemed utterly shocked that he’d been signed in the first place. He looked pretty terrible. I know they had no money but the free transfers and loans they brought in weren’t the best.
Yeah, could of been the editing but all the keepers looks f-ing attrocious. I was thinking of a proper old journeyman.
 

Cornpattbuck

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I'm in two minds about Rodwell to be honest. Yes he's a complete **** generally so I understand the hatred for him, but at the same time it's not really his fault he's in the situation, it's the club's fault. They're expecting him to just walk away from millions of pounds to do them a favour but why should he? Especially given that they've then left him to rot with the kids as a punishment so if he did agree to leave, he'd only get a really shit contract at another club. If he's on 60k/week at Sunderland for the next X amount of months, why on earth would he walk away from that to sign a contract for 10k/week at e.g. Southend or whoever? It just doesn't make any sense for him to do that. Yes I can understand that it's hurting the club but at the end of the day he's got himself and his family to look after first and foremost, not his employer and the mess they've created for themselves.

IMO they should've either sold him while his stock was still half-decent and agreed to pay the difference in the wages, which would at least somewhat help the situation, or if they were keeping him on, they should've played him and made him part of the team so that at least they're getting the benefit of him playing even if he was too expensive. Getting stuck paying him the money but not making him available for selection, and all the while reducing his value to other clubs even further, was about the worst possible way to handle the situation.

Like I say, he seems like a **** generally speaking, but I don't think the fact that he wouldn't bail sunderland out of their own mess at great personal expense is what makes him one. They've treated him just as badly as he's treated them to be honest and they just wanted to use him as a scapegoat when they didn't have money to spend. It was Short who decided to completely cut off the money supply and Rodwell was a convenient way to say "If only it wasn't for Rodwell we'd be buying players all over the place" when in actual fact the lack of transfer fees had very little to do with Rodwell.

EDIT Before someone points this out, yes I'm aware that he did leave the club in the end, but I'm talking about it in the context of at the time.
Yeah, at first I just though 'what a ****' but in hindsight I definitely agree with this.
 

jolsnogross

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It was a pretty decent documentary. Some of the lessons were:
- that poor decisions one season can really fuck you over for years to come (rodwell, managers etc)
- too much emotion can lead to poor decisions; don't expect favors from Rodwell and Grabban - do better to cut your losses (Rodwell golden handshake) and keep effective performers (Grabban); have a better sense of your level during pre-season ...they were miles away from promotion material and could have known that with a more rigorous schedule of friendlies and such
- players need a bit more integration with their towns and communities to understand what a privileged position they're in and realize the macro- (meso?) effects that poor discipline, poor work ethic, and poor character can have on fans and club staff more broadly. While it is just a job, it'd be helpful for all concerned if players interacted with club staff more rather than just treating them like servants
- John O'Shea seems like a very decent bloke, but should have been far more rigorous as club captain with stopping the rot (maybe the documentary didn't capture it).

Sunderland's double relegation was clearly an abysmal rut they couldn't get out of. There's no reason professional athletes shouldn't have become more difficult to beat - to achieve 4th or 5th bottom of the Championship - but they just seemed to flail all season.
 

aliyid

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Felt like a basic documentary by numbers that just showed the results while throwing in a couple of fan comments here and there. I was hoping for more tactics, training sessions and a full on view of the emotion and conflict of being part of a failing squad that all believe they’re better than they are. Do they start fighting for each other and the club or are they so blinkered and deluded that they’re only out there for themselves.

Coleman came across as quite naive and more of a blinkered motivational speaker than a coach. Guess that comes from being Wales manager with a team that has Bale and Ramsey getting them out of tight games.

Confidence is huge at this level though and was quite shocked at just how mentally fragile the players are.
 

mike_l

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Just watched the first episode, can't help thinking that the huge overreaction from the fans to losing a friendly to Celtic, albeit by a hefty margin, didn't help the season to come.

Write it off as a meaningless game against superior opposition and move on. But riots in the street and players heads dropping before the season even started? Not gonna help was it.
 

'O Zio

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Just watched the first episode, can't help thinking that the huge overreaction from the fans to losing a friendly to Celtic, albeit by a hefty margin, didn't help the season to come.

Write it off as a meaningless game against superior opposition and move on. But riots in the street and players heads dropping before the season even started? Not gonna help was it.
I think it was more just that they'd had however many years of being mismanaged and piss poor players with terrible attitudes but kept scraping sagfety by the skin of their teeth. Then when they finally did get relegated people saw it as a chance to clean house and start again, only for them to have all that optimism rubbed into their face in humiliating fashion. It probably didn't help, you're right, but I don't really blame them
 

dontcallme

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Just finished the series.

The perfect storm of big club, high expectations, passionate fans, poorly run over a period of time, no money, poor team and promotion hopes.

Grayson looked clueless. Coleman made mistakes with getting rid of Grabban. He might have been a dick and didn’t put in much of a shift but when you are doing n that much trouble you don’t get rid of your only goal scorer.
 

'O Zio

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Just finished the series.

The perfect storm of big club, high expectations, passionate fans, poorly run over a period of time, no money, poor team and promotion hopes.

Grayson looked clueless. Coleman made mistakes with getting rid of Grabban. He might have been a dick and didn’t put in much of a shift but when you are doing n that much trouble you don’t get rid of your only goal scorer.
Did Coleman kick out Grabban? I thought he asked his club to recall him from the loan cos he didn't like that he was subbed off or something..?
 

dontcallme

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Did Coleman kick out Grabban? I thought he asked his club to recall him from the loan cos he didn't like that he was subbed off or something..?
Yes, because Coleman kept taking him off. Bit like when Graham kept subbing off Ginola tohugh that is where the Grabban and Ginola comparisons end.
 

mike_l

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I think it was more just that they'd had however many years of being mismanaged and piss poor players with terrible attitudes but kept scraping sagfety by the skin of their teeth. Then when they finally did get relegated people saw it as a chance to clean house and start again, only for them to have all that optimism rubbed into their face in humiliating fashion. It probably didn't help, you're right, but I don't really blame them
I'm not saying it was a major reason, but talk about creating a toxic atmosphere before the season had even started. Losing a friendly is hardly a crisis, and practically rioting in the streets overs friendly lost is absolutely ridiculous.
 
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