Strategic discussion

[DenverSpur]

One interesting thing about this is that it was an evolution. Dier couldn't do the job of a normal cm so poch found a place for him.

I'm not sure we have a single player in midfield who would allow us to evolve like that.

Obviously Gray would be amazing but he's still so young and tired now.

I'd love to be wrong on this but I think this kind of change is only possible once we hit the summer window and buy a proper 6. They don't have to be flash but they do have to know how to anchor a midfield on their own.

Should have bought a proper 6 in January

 

[DenverSpur]

But again we have never done it. The 8 has pretty much always joined the attack. Tbh it shouldn't be a runner, it needs to be more of a conductor/deep lying playmaker type who will hold position and who sees and changes the play. Now I know we don't really have one but who ever it is needs to be positionally disciplined and it would be my first port of call in the Summer.i was desperate for us to get Wharton because he is exactly the type we need. Able to play box to box but is better as that deeper player.

100% about Wharton. How we scouted Philips from Blackburn but missed Wharton is baffling.

 

[mikspurz]

100% about Wharton. How we scouted Philips from Blackburn but missed Wharton is baffling.

Didn’t we scout both but didn’t pull the trigger on Wharton and instead Crystal Palace stepped in. Similarly with Eze.

 

[mr ashley]

Didn’t we scout both but didn’t pull the trigger on Wharton and instead Crystal Palace stepped in. Similarly with Eze.

I think we probably saw gray and Wharton as similar profiles and decided we could only pursue one, not both.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

100% about Wharton. How we scouted Philips from Blackburn but missed Wharton is baffling.

We got Gray instead

 

[Trix]

We got Gray instead

Thought Ange said Gray was bought as a full back?......

 

[mr ashley]

View attachment 151993
I posted this in Villa match thread, but feel like we often end up in this situation as everyone has bombed forward and we have possession with the CB. Midfield is static and not showing. Fullbacks and everyone else is sooooo far up the pitch there isn't a pass on unless the FB or WF run back to lose a marker, but then they are running towards our goal and so often play back to the CB who are then under pressure.

This is one moment but a pattern I see repeated and is a direct result of 'over reliance on overloading in attack' as @King of the Lane mentions above.

We haven't been playing with a midfield for yonks, like we literally have a defence (of sorts) and an attack nothing in the middle to connect the two. Bit like this against Leicester... shows how exposed we are on the turnover as well.

Firstly great thread, top idea and well policed @kremlyn

For ages I’ve been concerned about the out ball for cbs in this system, as the fb inverts (not shown here) and the ball is to the winger with back to goal. Kulusevski can do a good job with his strength but rarely leads to quick ball and more often leads to play being forced backwards.
this graphic does suggest a tweak with fullbacks not pushing inside.

on this note, I remember watching a clip of arteta () suggesting it was better to play the ball in front of the winger or at least to the side so he can run onto it, making it harder for the fb to be tight. our wing play is such a problem with Johnson and son but tweaks like we are seeing in the graphic could make interchanges more effective.
I’ve also commented on our rest defence at 2-1 being too exposed, relying on vdv to cover half the pitch alone and no doubt putting pressure on his hamstrings.
Dropping back either fullback to invert alongside the cdm to make a 2-2 would be an improvement, and despite all the grief porro gets, if he was asked to play like Trent does it would maximise his strengths and hide his weakness.
In terms of pressing, it’s understandable that players aren’t able or willing to chase down in high areas if they have doubts about their own fitness or their teammates, and as a result a collective drop off of 5% makes this approach so much less effective.
There are options, ange certainly has been slow to adapt and unless he can tweak his system even returning players won’t be enough to save him.

 

[kremlyn]

Firstly great thread, top idea and well policed @kremlyn

For ages I’ve been concerned about the out ball for cbs in this system, as the fb inverts (not shown here) and the ball is to the winger with back to goal. Kulusevski can do a good job with his strength but rarely leads to quick ball and more often leads to play being forced backwards.
this graphic does suggest a tweak with fullbacks not pushing inside.

on this note, I remember watching a clip of arteta () suggesting it was better to play the ball in front of the winger or at least to the side so he can run onto it, making it harder for the fb to be tight. our wing play is such a problem with Johnson and son but tweaks like we are seeing in the graphic could make interchanges more effective.
I’ve also commented on our rest defence at 2-1 being too exposed, relying on vdv to cover half the pitch alone and no doubt putting pressure on his hamstrings.
Dropping back either fullback to invert alongside the cdm to make a 2-2 would be an improvement, and despite all the grief porro gets, if he was asked to play like Trent does it would maximise his strengths and hide his weakness.
In terms of pressing, it’s understandable that players aren’t able or willing to chase down in high areas if they have doubts about their own fitness or their teammates, and as a result a collective drop off of 5% makes this approach so much less effective.
There are options, ange certainly has been slow to adapt and unless he can tweak his system even returning players won’t be enough to save him.

Thanks dude. I haven't been into the manager thread for days and feel much better for it

I guess the problem is that the underlapping fullbacks are part of a very intricate ecosystem; change one thing and it collapses. You beautifully describe the action of the winger dropping to receive the ball from the cb or 6, he then has 3 options: spin and beat his fullback who will have followed him, play the ball back or flick the ball inside to the underlapping fullback who should be passing at the same moment.

I saw kulusevski receive the ball on the wing a couple of games back. It was a classic set up as you described. He didn't even look before flicking the ball in to porro, taking his marker right out of the game..... except Porro wasn't there, he'd hung back and the move collapsed.

I have never thought that plan b was ever the right thing to do when plan a is this sophisticated. What kulu was doing has to be the aim of any formation or strategy: give the players the confidence to know when and where to pass or move next, without having to look.

I've often wondered what more the players would make of the opportunities if we'd had a settled team over more than a month or two. Maybe we'll see it between now and May?

 

[FloridaSpur]

There's a thread for you to post this mindless garbage.

Please use it.

I've already posted in there matey, replying to one of your posts.

 

[DenverSpur]

We got Gray instead

Not the same type of player.

 

[DenverSpur]

Didn’t we scout both but didn’t pull the trigger on Wharton and instead Crystal Palace stepped in. Similarly with Eze.

Probably. We have a poor habit of vacillating about players and therefore missing out.

 

[kremlyn]

Strange one. Wharton definitely looks like a player we should have moved on. I watched the highlights last night and even that showed his awareness and distribution are excellent. Like Lucas but a bit more 'experienced'.

 

[mr ashley]

Thanks dude. I haven't been into the manager thread for days and feel much better for it

I guess the problem is that the underlapping fullbacks are part of a very intricate ecosystem; change one thing and it collapses. You beautifully describe the action of the winger dropping to receive the ball from the cb or 6, he then has 3 options: spin and beat his fullback who will have followed him, play the ball back or flick the ball inside to the underlapping fullback who should be passing at the same moment.

I saw kulusevski receive the ball on the wing a couple of games back. It was a classic set up as you described. He didn't even look before flicking the ball in to porro, taking his marker right out of the game..... except Porro wasn't there, he'd hung back and the move collapsed.

I have never thought that plan b was ever the right thing to do when plan a is this sophisticated. What kulu was doing has to be the aim of any formation or strategy: give the players the confidence to know when and where to pass or move next, without having to look.

I've often wondered what more the players would make of the opportunities if we'd had a settled team over more than a month or two. Maybe we'll see it between now and May?

Fingers crossed!

the goal Werner scored against city was a perfect example of how it should work. But they’ve been rarer as teams have figured us out, and personnel have changed

I do agree that the problems in tweaking the system pull apart more things than we realise, making everyone confused and things move slower, and break down more often.

time on the training ground with fit players should help, although in fairness that should have happened this time last year

 

[mr ashley]

Case in point that last chance we coughed up

 

[kremlyn]

It's odd. We're playing well in the first half and underlapping, including Spence! However, he's been listening to you @mr ashley and putting on the brakes at the final third.

 

[mr ashley]

 

[Cochise]

The chaos that comes from turnovers in our half is greater than with other teams imo because the defenders are already out of position. This means they are all putting out the nearest fire and not covering their traditional positions.

The Garnacho chance in the first half was the best example of this this season. When Maddison loses the ball, Bergvall is level with him, Bentancur is in midfield with Porro, Danso is in a tradition RB area having just passed the ball up the line to Deki. The header down from the UTD player goes past Bentancur, Davies steps out but is beaten to it. Porro then sees a massive space where our LCB should be so races to cover it, Danso is tracking back to his position with the UTD forward. Davies goes to the same space as Porro, but no one is in our RB space where two UTD players have identified space and are queuing up for a pass.

Every team is vulnerable on a turnover, but for us it seems worse.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Not the same type of player.

Both are number sixes, so would play the same position in our team. We just haven’t seen Gray lineup there for us in a competitive match.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

His system works better with more quality players available to freshen things up after 60/70 mins, however so far it’s not proving to be a sustainable way of playing.

For me it’s just too high risk, the attacking and posession benefits for inverting and keeping both fullbacks so high doesn’t outweigh the risks, openness and weaknesses it consistently brings defensively.

The best systems always have a good level of balance, I’ve said for a while if he could tweak it slightly he could have a really effective platform, as it is the one off 0-4 away to city is usually followed by a good number of inconsistent performances or losses due to the risk reward ratio of this tactic.

 

[brasil_spur]

I actually think Ange is being consistently let down by several key players right now, and frustratingly two of them are massive fan favourites and seem like all round great guys.

Son is the main culprit for me. He can't press effectively and i've noticed that he consistently is a few steps behind the opposition when defending/pressing. You can see what the oppo player is going to do and the options for him would be to either A) quickly press that player to limit the effectiveness of their next pass or B) cut off the channel that they could pass to that isn't being covered by our other players. He mostly does neither and ends up in a bit of no mans land, where the oppo player has both the time to pick a pass and also the channel in which to play it. Going forwards he is really quite ineffective at being decisive and unless the other team is someonlike Tamworth he seemingly has little to no will to take a player on and skin them. Odobert yesterday showed us how effective this can be, along with Bergvall early on getting a shot off which resulted in our goal. Basically Son has a couple of things we need him to depending on whether we are in possession or not and he really isn't doing either of them at all well. I don't mean to dig him out, but I think a combination of him ageing, being overplayed and frankly him not being able to adapt to Ange's style of play is making him a fairly big liability for us in many games.

Porro is the next one that's causing us a lot of issues. Again great guy and gives 150% every match, but his defensive position is becoming woeful. He is often either A) out of position or B) unable to block a cross coming in. The out of position issue has cost us a fair few goals already this season and if this is something he can't sort out in his game then we need to think about either A) moving him on in the summer or B) adapting tactics to ensure someone in midfield is always covering for him. His defending on the edge of the box really needs work too, I would say he allows 75%+ of players to get their cross in from his side, whereas Spence for example is probably in the 10-25% range, unless it's Mo Salah he's facing and then it's about 50/50.

Next up is Johnson / Werner / Deki - who all have become far too complacent at choosing the easy back pass on the wing rather than trying to either beat their man or at least progress the ball sideways /forwards in an attacking momentum. Deki is the best of the 3 at this as he does look to cut inside sometimes, but we need to get to the point where our wingers are all looking to get a cross in, shit I'd even consider giving them all a "successful cross" bonus at this point as I reckon we'd get a couple of goals per game if instead of the 20 back passes from the wings each game we got 10-20 crosses coming into the box.