Spurs Youth - 2019/20

Westmorlandspur

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Some of our lads look absolutely tiny, I would swear #60 was only about 4'5''. Real men against boys stuff at times.

Great experience from them, our youth squads often do well on penalties which bodes well for their mentality.
I thought the same when watching it on SSN. Chelsea youth always look so much bigger than ours.
 

spursfan77

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Dermi Lusala
ClubTottenham Hotspur
PositionDefender
Born16 January 2003

The Tottenham support love to sing about players that are one of their own and Lusala, a tenacious and technically polished right-back, certainly has a particular connection, having attended St Ignatius college, which is a stone's throw from the club's training ground. The Edmonton boy was at school last season when he was plunged into his debut for the under-18s against Chelsea and, over the summer, he was one of two players from his year group that the club took to the well-regarded Oberndorf under-19 pre-season tournament in Germany. Capped at youth level by England, Lusala previously played for Brentford. David Hytner
 

Locotoro

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I've been wondering about this for some time and I'm interested to know what the consensus is on this.

At what age do people expect a youth prospect to have made their breakthrough? I don't mean debut match, or going out on loan, i mean genuinely and regularly getting minutes in the first team.

I ask because i'm starting to think that we have somewhat of an expectation that players should be making that breakthrough younger than is the norm. I look at the leading producers of talent across europe and those clubs are rarely promoting youth players to consistent first team football until the age of 23 or 24
 
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Nick-TopSpursMan

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I've been wondering about this for some time and I'm interested to know what the consensus is on this.

At what age do people expect a youth prospect to have made their breakthrough? I don't mean debut match, i mean genuinely and regularly getting minutes in the first team.
I don't think it's possible to say an age because there are so many factors.

Physical and mental development, attitude, work rate. Someone like Parrott looks like he could be ready to get regular minutes by the time he's 19 where as someone like Markanday if he makes it probably wouldn't break through until he's 21-22 because he needs longer to develop physically.

It's rare you get players who are ready to play regularly at 17/18/19. To do that they'd have to be either exceptional physically, technically, intelligence wise or have all of those features.
 

Marty

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I've been wondering about this for some time and I'm interested to know what the consensus is on this.

At what age do people expect a youth prospect to have made their breakthrough? I don't mean debut match, i mean genuinely and regularly getting minutes in the first team.
There is absolutely no right answer as every single player, scrap that, every single person develops differently both physically and mentally.

Some extreme cases are ready to play at 17, and I feel like we (all, not just Spurs fans) often judge all other youth prospects up against those mega talents who have been helped along the way simply by developing in such a way that they are ready to be thrown into the rigour of the men's game at an early age. Plenty of players have to hit 21-22-23 before they are not just techincally proficient but also physically and mentally ready.

But once a player has hit around 23, I wouldn't expect him to suddenly become top PL quality if he hasn't shown any glimpses of it previously.
 

Locotoro

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There is absolutely no right answer as every single player, scrap that, every single person develops differently both physically and mentally.

Some extreme cases are ready to play at 17, and I feel like we (all, not just Spurs fans) often judge all other youth prospects up against those mega talents who have been helped along the way simply by developing in such a way that they are ready to be thrown into the rigour of the men's game at an early age. Plenty of players have to hit 21-22-23 before they are not just techincally proficient but also physically and mentally ready.

But once a player has hit around 23, I wouldn't expect him to suddenly become top PL quality if he hasn't shown any glimpses of it previously.
I had to edit my original post but this touches on my point. It looks to me that players at the top, and even second tier of European clubs, are not usually making that break-through until around 23 anyway and I suspect that if we're looking at our Academy we don't have anyone who is close to that age and point of development. Of course, lots of variables to consider like loans, and physical ability but i'm just wondering if we should be thinking about moving the goalposts of our expectations
 

Marty

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I had to edit my original post but this touches on my point. It looks to me that players at the top, and even second tier of European clubs, are not usually making that break-through until around 23 anyway and I suspect that if we're looking at our Academy we don't have anyone who is close to that age and point of development. Of course, lots of variables to consider like loans, and physical ability but i'm just wondering if we should be thinking about moving the goalposts of our expectations
I think the fact that (most) professional footballers are so much more like finely-tuned athletes now than they used to be means that fewer and fewer players will be ready to play before they hit around 20, purely for physical conditioning reasons.

We certainly should not expect to see several 18 year olds playing regular first team football for us, just look at how it's going at Man United in those EL games where they're playing all the kids. Despite being technically proficient they get bullied, even by sides like Astana, they won in the end but the point stands.

But where are the goalposts currently, and where do you think they should be moved to? I don't think there's a consensus as to where the goalposts currently are, every supporter whether they follow youth football closely or not probably has their own opinion on this.
 

Blake Griffin

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there's no set age, you need to judge on a case-by-case basis. skipp and parrott have the physical and mental maturity to handle game time at a young age, we can hold them back to bring them in line with some phantom belief that players under 21-22 should stick to kids football but it won't do their development any good. the dutch equivalent of those two would be playing regularly from 17, now i get that our circumstances are entirely different but there is a middle-ground between building a team around teenagers and not playing them at all. skipp had a positive first season with the first team, no complaints whatsoever but if it's followed up by a regression in game-time then we are failing him.
 

edson

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Dermi Lusala
ClubTottenham Hotspur
PositionDefender
Born16 January 2003

The Tottenham support love to sing about players that are one of their own and Lusala, a tenacious and technically polished right-back, certainly has a particular connection, having attended St Ignatius college, which is a stone's throw from the club's training ground. The Edmonton boy was at school last season when he was plunged into his debut for the under-18s against Chelsea and, over the summer, he was one of two players from his year group that the club took to the well-regarded Oberndorf under-19 pre-season tournament in Germany. Capped at youth level by England, Lusala previously played for Brentford. David Hytner
What I can tell you is that Dermi Lusala is taking a bit longer to settle down than other players and on current form Kallum Cesay is playing very well at RB at the moment and he has also helped Chay Cooper play better when he plays in front of Cesay at RM and between them both they have scored 5 goals so far this year down that side of the pitch.

Dermi Lusala has been covering LB for the Excellent Dennis Cirkin and that has not help him settle down just yet,He has played at RB a few times this season but out of both Cesay and Lusala it has been Cesay who has looked better at RB so far this year,there is still a long way to go and Kallum Cesay can play midfield so maybe he will not end up playing RB by the time the season has finished.
 
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Westmorlandspur

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there's no set age, you need to judge on a case-by-case basis. skipp and parrott have the physical and mental maturity to handle game time at a young age, we can hold them back to bring them in line with some phantom belief that players under 21-22 should stick to kids football but it won't do their development any good. the dutch equivalent of those two would be playing regularly from 17, now i get that our circumstances are entirely different but there is a middle-ground between building a team around teenagers and not playing them at all. skipp had a positive first season with the first team, no complaints whatsoever but if it's followed up by a regression in game-time then we are failing him.
We certainly are by playing Wanyama who is well off the pace, instead of Skipp.
Solksjaer is doing Mason Greenwood no favours by portraying him as the second coming, when in fact he has done very little to justify this.
 

spursfan77

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What I can tell you is that Dermi Lusala is taking a bit longer to settle down than other players and on current form Kallum Cesay is playing very well at RB at the moment and he has also helped Chay Cooper play better when he plays in front of Cesay at RM and between them both they have scored 5 goals so far this year down that side of the pitch.

Dermi Lusala has been covering LB for the Excellent Dennis Cirkin and that has not help him settle down just yet,He has played at RB a few times this season but out of both Cesay and Lusala it has been Cesay who has looked better at RB so far this year,there is still a long way to go and Kallum Cesay can play midfield so maybe he will not end up playing RB by the time the season has finished.
Strange pick by the guardian then?
 

IGSpur

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maybe, it's difficult to know until you give them the chance to prove otherwise though.

look at jaden brown. not a bad player but fairly middle of the road as far as our academy goes, he was let go and now he's starting regularly in the championship. huddersfield fans seem to think highly of him, for the time being anyway -


i'm not for a moment saying he's going to end up being a player we regret losing but it is indicative of how inefficient we're currently running the academy side of things whereby all we seem to be doing is holding players back and then ultimately letting them go for nothing.
Didn't realise there was an actual link to the forum. Pleased to se Brown getting good reviews. Another one of that age group that I liked who could also play CB. I felt he was a bit underrated as he wasn't a natural in attack when compared to the likes of KWP and even Tsaroulla who became a lot of peoples's preferred LB but he was very steady (good) in attack and defense equally.

I had actually tried to find a tweet of some interseting stats Chelseayouth had posted in the summer, it was a graph of the best FBs, and the best performing ones were a few of the loanees from the top 6 clubs, James, Dasilva and I think another. Then you had your Bogles and Aarons the ones that everyone wants. It's no surprise that the top ones were already England players or had been in successful teams, but had no guarantee of ever playing for their first team. Yet the ones everyone wants to buy, are the ones who didn't play for England when they were younger as they weren't as good but were getting regular game time for their Championsip club. I can't find it annoyingly but this is my big frustration. They are selected for England for a reason generally and our own don't get to go on loan and show themselves but then when they waste 3 years in nothingness and get taken over by average Championship players are told they were never good enough.

I will not be surprised at all to see Brown do well at Huddersfield, and good luck to him.

Also I've seen in the news again today an example of how coaches comments, and the term 'good enough is meaningless'. Guardiola has called Foden the most talented player he has worked with and that he would never sell him. Everyone on the forum seems to agree Foden is quality. So is he good enough? What is good enough, people say we haven't got players as good as Foden, well if he was good enough eh would be playing for Man City. See how easy and foolish this argument is. Do people believe that Foden playing 100mins this year is better for him than if he was playing in the Championship. Does Guardiola not actually rate Foden and is he just lying. The common logic, is that he only does it against youngsters, why would the manager not play him if he was good enough, yet everyone agrees he's one of the biggest talents in England. This is very similar to a load of our cases another couple of years or not playing and being strung along, by the time the kid sees the field he'll be a shell of himself, and when he is no longer at that point where he can actually play for the first team, everyone will be able to say 'see Guardiola was right all along'. Very sad and predictable.

Ask yourself why Guardiola might not be playing Foden, then you might have the same reasons why Poch doesn't give our players a go after comparing them to Messi or calling them special or handing out contracts all the time.
 

IGSpur

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I've been wondering about this for some time and I'm interested to know what the consensus is on this.

At what age do people expect a youth prospect to have made their breakthrough? I don't mean debut match, or going out on loan, i mean genuinely and regularly getting minutes in the first team.

I ask because i'm starting to think that we have somewhat of an expectation that players should be making that breakthrough younger than is the norm. I look at the leading producers of talent across europe and those clubs are rarely promoting youth players to consistent first team football until the age of 23 or 24
Around 22/23 sounds about right, on average. I'd agree with that unless as others have said they are a physical specimen. But that age assumes a steady progression.

I don't know who you think, thinks we should be making a breakthrough earlier but I don't really see it here.

A top quality player and we've had plenty of should/could be making debuts at 17/18. If they're lucky get around 5 games in the season following their debut across cups and PL competition as a sub, preferably in their strongest position. Third season so they're 20/21 depending on development possible 5 more 90mins spread over however many games of the season as they become an actual squad player. And then if they're a good squad player might expect to be starting some games more regularly in PL by the time they're 22.

You can extend that and include a couple of loan seasons, or speed it up or slow it down depending on how quick someone has taken, but as long as there is progression.

What we do is talented player debuts at 17/18 in League Cup. Makes about 5 appearances in their second season. Then nothing 3rd season, nothing 4 season then at 22 everyone asks why has this player not developed, he must've been overrated.
 

IGSpur

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Strange pick by the guardian then?
The more obvious pick would be John. But I don't know how much they know about our squad so if John isn't playing they probably assumed he wasn't good rather than he was injured, and just plucked the next England regular out and wrote about him.

@edson has definitely seen more of Lusala this season but the game I saw him in at LB he did a really good job their I thought and looked assured. He is a good player, but imho I think John would be the clear favourite if they saw him. Though saying that I haven't seen John play for us this season yet. But as I've mentioned he is an England regular in a strong age group with plenty of attacking talents. Hopefully he can find his form, I think he had his first game back last week and get himself back in that England side, as it will be a great one to watch come the Euros, and he'll likely be our only representative now that Oluwayemi has left. Lusala could get back in or Craig, but the only other one, going off a bit of a tangent here, is Benjamin Watt who's the year below, but I'd be interested to know how well he's playing this year or how close he is to that age group. He'd have to play for our u18s to be considered I'd imagine and try and get in at CB or RB, so might not happen
 

edson

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The more obvious pick would be John. But I don't know how much they know about our squad so if John isn't playing they probably assumed he wasn't good rather than he was injured, and just plucked the next England regular out and wrote about him.

@edson has definitely seen more of Lusala this season but the game I saw him in at LB he did a really good job their I thought and looked assured. He is a good player, but imho I think John would be the clear favourite if they saw him. Though saying that I haven't seen John play for us this season yet. But as I've mentioned he is an England regular in a strong age group with plenty of attacking talents. Hopefully he can find his form, I think he had his first game back last week and get himself back in that England side, as it will be a great one to watch come the Euros, and he'll likely be our only representative now that Oluwayemi has left. Lusala could get back in or Craig, but the only other one, going off a bit of a tangent here, is Benjamin Watt who's the year below, but I'd be interested to know how well he's playing this year or how close he is to that age group. He'd have to play for our u18s to be considered I'd imagine and try and get in at CB or RB, so might not happen
The game you watched Lusala play LB was that the West Ham match because he could have done better for one of the West Ham goals?

I do like Lusala and I can see why he is rated but I think he can play better than what he is right now and that is why I think he has had a slow start.

As for John he is a very talented player who is a brilliant player to watch,he has a lot of skill with good vision but he is not perfect and he has parts of his game he will need to work on and off the ball he is not the best.
 
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Tom Hep

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The more obvious pick would be John. But I don't know how much they know about our squad so if John isn't playing they probably assumed he wasn't good rather than he was injured, and just plucked the next England regular out and wrote about him.

@edson has definitely seen more of Lusala this season but the game I saw him in at LB he did a really good job their I thought and looked assured. He is a good player, but imho I think John would be the clear favourite if they saw him. Though saying that I haven't seen John play for us this season yet. But as I've mentioned he is an England regular in a strong age group with plenty of attacking talents. Hopefully he can find his form, I think he had his first game back last week and get himself back in that England side, as it will be a great one to watch come the Euros, and he'll likely be our only representative now that Oluwayemi has left. Lusala could get back in or Craig, but the only other one, going off a bit of a tangent here, is Benjamin Watt who's the year below, but I'd be interested to know how well he's playing this year or how close he is to that age group. He'd have to play for our u18s to be considered I'd imagine and try and get in at CB or RB, so might not happen
Watt seems to have fallen down the pecking order at the club. Haysman, Hackett, Mathurin, Scarlett and Cassanova all seem to be rated higher now. I believe even Donley and Bryan-Waugh from the year below are seen as better players currently.
 

Nick-TopSpursMan

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I don't know much about the first years but it doesn't seem like we produce many pacey, skilled dribbling type wing forwards like Chelsea and Scum? Their younger players seem to have a lot more pace and skill in attack? Saka, Hudson Odoi, Mount, Nelson, Willock etc.

I like the look of Bennett and Clarke but to those of you who watch the youths week in, week out, do we have any players of that type who genuinely may become really good players in the first team?
 

coys200

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I’m sure Lusala played RB Vs Bayern in the UYL match. Actually thought he was our stand out player that day.
 
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