Match Threads Spurs vs Sheffield United - Match Thread

Match Prediction

  • Spurs Win

    Votes: 84 77.1%
  • Sheffield United Win

    Votes: 5 4.6%
  • Score Draw

    Votes: 18 16.5%
  • Goal-less Draw

    Votes: 2 1.8%

  • Total voters
    109
  • Poll closed .

Hercules

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Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
3,540
Feel free to stick to it all you want but you would be wrong. If you had frustrations with his tactical approach then that's fair for any fan to have. But just because you have those frustrations doesn't mean you have a valid point.


Perhaps you just didn't understand the rationale behind it. I can't be sure but I think that is a possibility.


This appeal to authority with the 'pros' claim is foolish. Most pros in general, and English ex-pros in particular, wouldn't know sound tactics if they bit them on the arse. English football in general is the least tactically developed of the big Euro leagues and it was worse when your so-called 'pros' played. All you have to do is watch a game or two from elsewhere. All the modern tactics in the PL come from foreign coaches so, again, your appeal to the authority of ex-pros falls flat. It wasn't so long ago when folks like you were saying "so you know more than Poch" when folks criticized him for the same things we see now and the laggards are finally recognizing.

Defend your point and defend it with what you know not fallacious arguments. If you got a problem with Poch then fine but don't couch it in some lame argument against valid tactics because 'ex-Pros' agree. Tactics are tangible, available for all to see, and can be debated. Mirroring may be tactics 101 but it is sound, seemed to be effective on Saturday (would have been more so if Ndombele didn't get hurt), and should have happened earlier. But removing Dele from the 10 wasn't the problem by any stretch of the imagination and that was one of your 'frustrations'.
Everybody is different. My personality is different from yours. Yes I do have frustrations with Poch and his tactical approach. I disagree with your Dele argument, and that is fine. Using examples of ex-pros is by no means me trying to gain some kind of credence. It was sharing that it is not only I who thought that. Maybe it is because of my background why I come across the way I do. But I am in no means trying to excel a status to get anyone to agree with my opinions.

we were 1-0 up at the time. Winks was on. We needed to wall the midfield with a bit more protection, by moving Sheff United around a bit more, causing them to not have the avenues on the flanks that they did. So taking off Dele is ok, but should of bought Sess on. I would of taken off Aurier, or Dier (who were their extra players) and put Foyth on at RB, instead of Aurier. Dropped one of the forwards into midfield, which Dele could of done, as he played that position at MK. Or taken Dier off, bought Toby on. And dropped Dele back as o said. Or take Dele off, and bring on Sess. Various options I would of gone for.

I hope that makes sense.
 

John48

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Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
1,282
Read on another fans forum about how poor we were at closing down especially for their equalising goal & highlighted Sissoko & Winks as the main culprits.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
4,221
...Yes I do have frustrations with Poch and his tactical approach. I disagree with your Dele argument, and that is fine....But I am in no means trying to excel a status to get anyone to agree with my opinions.
Fair enough.

We needed to wall the midfield with a bit more protection, by moving Sheff United around a bit more, causing them to not have the avenues on the flanks that they did.
I'm not sure what the first 2 points mean but the last one is effectively negated by mirroring the formation. Going 352/532 brings an additional person into the MF proper (with the added bonus of an actual ballplayer/carrier and tenacious defender in GLC) while also providing width to counteract their advantage on the flanks.

So taking off Dele is ok, but should of bought Sess on.
My point about switching before HT was about a stop-gap. I mentioned making it 'permanent' with a sub and tactical changes at HT. And yes, this would have been a very reasonable sub made all the more propitious with a switch to a 352/532 as it would have placed all the players in positions of familiarity/favorability while also negating SU's theretofore advantage.

I would of taken off Aurier, or Dier (who were their extra players) and put Foyth on at RB, instead of Aurier. Dropped one of the forwards into midfield, which Dele could of done, as he played that position at MK. Or taken Dier off, bought Toby on. And dropped Dele back as o said. Or take Dele off, and bring on Sess. Various options I would of gone for.

I hope that makes sense.
It doesn't. This seems like it came out of the mind of our manager in the heat of the moment. Ndombele was off and you'd be using up our 2 remaining subs in the defense with no reasonable expectation of like for like subs succeeding with a whole team of under-performing players. If you disagreed with the tactics you wouldn't be changing them with the plan you've laid out. That's literally what some of us have been complaining about Poch and his Plan A not succeeding so just try Plan A harder but with different players and with more passion. Making a sub with no change in tactics is what he does. Either that is a useless sub or an admission that you got the lineup wrong. Both damning of a manager.

Going 352 reduces the man advantage in the MF and gives us width. Not having effective crossers of the ball on either flank means we had either of 2 planned ways through, intricate interplay based on possession or Sonny getting in behind. Of course there are also set pieces and pressing/mistakes but that's another matter. 352/532 places Sonny closer to their goal and without the defensive responsibilities that he was ostensibly expected to fulfill.

I won't belabor the point but 352/532 was a sound approach and had benefits beyond the typical mirroring effect. Sessegnon would probably have been a very reasonable sub to make but not in a 4231 in this game. And I'm not sure why you would go after Aurier who was actually more than fine in this game. Putting Dier (who had a nightmare) at RCB, Sanchez in his comfortable CB/sweeper role, and Davies at LCB, flanked by Aurier and Sessegnon would have been a good choice.

And if you don't think I've known/recognized this for a long time I'll direct you to the writeup I did back in August 2016 in the tactics thread. That's when I realized that he doesn't learn and wasn't evolving as a coach in contrast to the JCL horde of PochOuters. And I'm still PochIn.
Going 352 has always been the way to shut us down. It allows the easy pressing of both CBs and the CM2 of a 4231. And yet Poch still doesn't recognize it as we play out of the back with the hot potato. And worse yet, after all these years we still don't have the players to effectively play against it i.e. very few actual footballers that can control, handle, and distribute under pressure. So since we don't have the players nor the tactical acumen to exploit the inherent weaknesses of their formation you mirror to negate the advantages of it - tactics 101. We did neither.

And Dele, he of the multiple flicks to the center of the pitch in his own half, is not one of these players that can handle the ball pressure in the MF. Winks, a forced sub, and Sess would have been better choices along with some reasonable tactical instruction at HT. The hope would have been to solidify the defense while saving the hail mary of Moura for added pace/countering later. You can't shoot your whole wad of 3 subs at one time.
 

Hercules

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Joined
Jul 23, 2014
Messages
3,540
Fair enough.


I'm not sure what the first 2 points mean but the last one is effectively negated by mirroring the formation. Going 352/532 brings an additional person into the MF proper (with the added bonus of an actual ballplayer/carrier and tenacious defender in GLC) while also providing width to counteract their advantage on the flanks.


My point about switching before HT was about a stop-gap. I mentioned making it 'permanent' with a sub and tactical changes at HT. And yes, this would have been a very reasonable sub made all the more propitious with a switch to a 352/532 as it would have placed all the players in positions of familiarity/favorability while also negating SU's theretofore advantage.


It doesn't. This seems like it came out of the mind of our manager in the heat of the moment. Ndombele was off and you'd be using up our 2 remaining subs in the defense with no reasonable expectation of like for like subs succeeding with a whole team of under-performing players. If you disagreed with the tactics you wouldn't be changing them with the plan you've laid out. That's literally what some of us have been complaining about Poch and his Plan A not succeeding so just try Plan A harder but with different players and with more passion. Making a sub with no change in tactics is what he does. Either that is a useless sub or an admission that you got the lineup wrong. Both damning of a manager.

Going 352 reduces the man advantage in the MF and gives us width. Not having effective crossers of the ball on either flank means we had either of 2 planned ways through, intricate interplay based on possession or Sonny getting in behind. Of course there are also set pieces and pressing/mistakes but that's another matter. 352/532 places Sonny closer to their goal and without the defensive responsibilities that he was ostensibly expected to fulfill.

I won't belabor the point but 352/532 was a sound approach and had benefits beyond the typical mirroring effect. Sessegnon would probably have been a very reasonable sub to make but not in a 4231 in this game. And I'm not sure why you would go after Aurier who was actually more than fine in this game. Putting Dier (who had a nightmare) at RCB, Sanchez in his comfortable CB/sweeper role, and Davies at LCB, flanked by Aurier and Sessegnon would have been a good choice.

And if you don't think I've known/recognized this for a long time I'll direct you to the writeup I did back in August 2016 in the tactics thread. That's when I realized that he doesn't learn and wasn't evolving as a coach in contrast to the JCL horde of PochOuters. And I'm still PochIn.
Going 352 has always been the way to shut us down. It allows the easy pressing of both CBs and the CM2 of a 4231. And yet Poch still doesn't recognize it as we play out of the back with the hot potato. And worse yet, after all these years we still don't have the players to effectively play against it i.e. very few actual footballers that can control, handle, and distribute under pressure. So since we don't have the players nor the tactical acumen to exploit the inherent weaknesses of their formation you mirror to negate the advantages of it - tactics 101. We did neither.

And Dele, he of the multiple flicks to the center of the pitch in his own half, is not one of these players that can handle the ball pressure in the MF. Winks, a forced sub, and Sess would have been better choices along with some reasonable tactical instruction at HT. The hope would have been to solidify the defense while saving the hail mary of Moura for added pace/countering later. You can't shoot your whole wad of 3 subs at one time.
Your points are very valid, and I highly respect them. Your observations are on point. You go into extensive detail, which is great. Your last stanza re Dele, Moura is so true. I fear greatly the next couple matches. I just do not think Poch has it in him to do what is needed tactically, and his use of substitutions. But, seeing he achieved so much with us, and introduced us to four years on consistent T4, and CL qualification, warrants me to want him to succeed. But I fear he won’t. And that is not a wish.
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
1,012
, fan being interviewed by Chris after the game , he says " I don't want Europa League " but I think he says "maybe win a cup" , if we win the FA Cup then it means Europa League if we don't finish top four, I think he should be told. I think we can totally dismiss winning the Champions League this season.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
2,310
Fair enough.


I'm not sure what the first 2 points mean but the last one is effectively negated by mirroring the formation. Going 352/532 brings an additional person into the MF proper (with the added bonus of an actual ballplayer/carrier and tenacious defender in GLC) while also providing width to counteract their advantage on the flanks.


My point about switching before HT was about a stop-gap. I mentioned making it 'permanent' with a sub and tactical changes at HT. And yes, this would have been a very reasonable sub made all the more propitious with a switch to a 352/532 as it would have placed all the players in positions of familiarity/favorability while also negating SU's theretofore advantage.


It doesn't. This seems like it came out of the mind of our manager in the heat of the moment. Ndombele was off and you'd be using up our 2 remaining subs in the defense with no reasonable expectation of like for like subs succeeding with a whole team of under-performing players. If you disagreed with the tactics you wouldn't be changing them with the plan you've laid out. That's literally what some of us have been complaining about Poch and his Plan A not succeeding so just try Plan A harder but with different players and with more passion. Making a sub with no change in tactics is what he does. Either that is a useless sub or an admission that you got the lineup wrong. Both damning of a manager.

Going 352 reduces the man advantage in the MF and gives us width. Not having effective crossers of the ball on either flank means we had either of 2 planned ways through, intricate interplay based on possession or Sonny getting in behind. Of course there are also set pieces and pressing/mistakes but that's another matter. 352/532 places Sonny closer to their goal and without the defensive responsibilities that he was ostensibly expected to fulfill.

I won't belabor the point but 352/532 was a sound approach and had benefits beyond the typical mirroring effect. Sessegnon would probably have been a very reasonable sub to make but not in a 4231 in this game. And I'm not sure why you would go after Aurier who was actually more than fine in this game. Putting Dier (who had a nightmare) at RCB, Sanchez in his comfortable CB/sweeper role, and Davies at LCB, flanked by Aurier and Sessegnon would have been a good choice.

And if you don't think I've known/recognized this for a long time I'll direct you to the writeup I did back in August 2016 in the tactics thread. That's when I realized that he doesn't learn and wasn't evolving as a coach in contrast to the JCL horde of PochOuters. And I'm still PochIn.
Going 352 has always been the way to shut us down. It allows the easy pressing of both CBs and the CM2 of a 4231. And yet Poch still doesn't recognize it as we play out of the back with the hot potato. And worse yet, after all these years we still don't have the players to effectively play against it i.e. very few actual footballers that can control, handle, and distribute under pressure. So since we don't have the players nor the tactical acumen to exploit the inherent weaknesses of their formation you mirror to negate the advantages of it - tactics 101. We did neither.

And Dele, he of the multiple flicks to the center of the pitch in his own half, is not one of these players that can handle the ball pressure in the MF. Winks, a forced sub, and Sess would have been better choices along with some reasonable tactical instruction at HT. The hope would have been to solidify the defense while saving the hail mary of Moura for added pace/countering later. You can't shoot your whole wad of 3 subs at one time.
I agree; Also I think we have a lot of players in a Poch first 11 who are so poor at ball retention wherever that be in passing, decision making or the technique . I see so many average teams with infinitely better retention of the ball than we have. Players like Alli; Lucas; Sissoko; Dier all not good enough in that respect to pass it about.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Joined
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Messages
4,221
I agree; Also I think we have a lot of players in a Poch first 11 who are so poor at ball retention wherever that be in passing, decision making or the technique . I see so many average teams with infinitely better retention of the ball than we have. Players like Alli; Lucas; Sissoko; Dier all not good enough in that respect to pass it about.
There's more than the 4 you've name but I agree with your point. I've been screaming for the longest for more actual 'footballers' in the team. I was on the Kovacic bandwagon for the last few years before he went to Chelsea. People had a field day about him last year because he was 'shit' in their minds since he didn't do anything that they could point their finger at. But that type of player is essential in the MF. We have so few and the addition of Ndom and GLC has probably doubled the previous number. That's sad. How do you construct a team with so few actual footballers? We are so vulnerable to being pressed.
 

punkisback

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Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
2,310
There's more than the 4 you've name but I agree with your point. I've been screaming for the longest for more actual 'footballers' in the team. I was on the Kovacic bandwagon for the last few years before he went to Chelsea. People had a field day about him last year because he was 'shit' in their minds since he didn't do anything that they could point their finger at. But that type of player is essential in the MF. We have so few and the addition of Ndom and GLC has probably doubled the previous number. That's sad. How do you construct a team with so few actual footballers? We are so vulnerable to being pressed.
Poch can't scout footballers; honestly when was the last technical player in MF or attack that we had signed before this season. And don't tell me they're too expensive!
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Joined
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Messages
4,221
Poch can't scout footballers; honestly when was the last technical player in MF or attack that we had signed before this season. And don't tell me they're too expensive!
I've had this feeling and conversations like this for some time now...usually via PM though because happy clappers can be quite the riled up bunch when dealing with truth before they've recognized and accepted it. Then they go full zealot.

There's a member here that has recently started taking in more Bundesliga games and is taken by the general technical standard of average teams there. And those players are cheap. There have been many an inexpensive player that has changed teams who would have drastically improved on the technical standard being exhibited at present in our team. It seems Poch prioritizes his perception of a player's passion and commitment over their technical ability whereas a different coach would identify player's up to technical standard first and then differentiate by perceived character. He has to grow as a person and manager.

My point is we need a DOF and should have always had one. And with like 7 players leaving in the summer this is the perfect time to get one in whether Poch is here or not.
 

Fidget

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Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
581
I thought this was a good read on the current state of our performances:
Yeah, a good read and not all negatives. It’s our spirit that has flown the nest, at the moment. We desperately need that back and Poch needs to step up, along with three or four players who seem to have flown the team’s spirit as well.
 

Bulletspur

The Reasonable Advocate
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
8,431
@Hercules and @heelspurs Its indicative of the sad state we now find our beloved Spurs in. You two were debating the outcome of tactics and changing formations to counteract Sheffield United at home, when it should have been them changing to hold us off.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
4,221
@Hercules and @heelspurs Its indicative of the sad state we now find our beloved Spurs in. You two were debating the outcome of tactics and changing formations to counteract Sheffield United at home, when it should have been them changing to hold us off.
FFS Bullet, you didn't have to distill it down like that. Man, that's sad and will be very difficult to get out of my head now. I re-watched the 1st half yesterday, something I typically don't do when performances are so abysmal, and it was worse than I remember. It's said that the body can't remember pain and in this instance I agree. We couldn't 'get out' against a promoted SU team. All respect to them as they are a good team and a terrific team for a promoted side. But my god it was awful. Won't be doing the 2nd half.
 
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