Match Threads Spurs vs Olympiacos - Match Thread

[heelspurs]

Do I bollocks, I woke my dog up shouting when that went in!...she's got the right hump now.

Draw. You got what you wanted you hater.

 

[heelspurs]

Genuinely interested in what you would have done?

Personally I would have been happy to sacrifice an Eriksen two years ago for the funds to finance a squad improvement.

Kane, a different story altogether. He is a perhaps once in a generation thing of folklore. Up through the ranks, written off as never going to make yet becoming a virtually irreplaceable force.

I am loath to have this type of talk in public because nuanced convo doesn't go over well. My point about Harry has already been taken incorrectly and it was reasonably/rationally supported and spelled out. And that was done by a reasonable poster. I fear that my points will be drastically mischaracterized by the horde.

So you would have been happy to dump CE but you're still pining for Dier? Dudu you are an enigma. I would have been looking at CE as well. But the others would not have been safe either. think of how we ran Dembele into the ground FFS. We knew his fitness issues but did nothing. when Poch was here Ever Banega moved for free 2x I believe and he's now 32 but still better than any MF we can put on the field.

Short answer is I would have looked to get at least 1 upgrade to the first XI each window. Identify your weakness and strengthen it. At each position we could have identified in the past TWs a better player (or a player that showed promis and has turned out to be better) has moved for reasonable money. There was an unwillingness to make good, better. Why? Maybe the stadium, maybe frugality, maybe resistance due to loyalty, etc. I don't know but if lessons are truly learned (they're not) then this wouldn't be allowed to happen again (they will).

I'll use an example from 'Murican sports. The (hated) NE Patriots have what many consider the greatest QB in the history of the game still playing. But he is getting old. Their coach (the greatest gridiron football coach ever) had a falling out with said QB because he wanted to make good, better, and move the old guy on because, like Levy with the stadium but not the team, he had a plan and knew succession is important. That QB has since won two WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS (said for @Gb160 's benefit) or Super Bowls since. but many argue it was the right decision because A) the QB they were going to move to has done well and B) now they have no succession plan.

That type of management is foreign to European footballing audiences. Folks don't wanna be seen as a selling club etc. that's foolish and short-sighted. I feared the Coutinho deal and thought the Hazard move was decent ( @Shadydan ) if Chelsea did the right things...which it seems they have. I would always get rid of 1 player to improve the overall talent and balance of the squad. Harry complicates matters because he's one of our own but I can imagine scenarios where i would drive him to his destination. But those would have to benefit Spurs going forward in both the sporting AND financial aspects. Moving him just for financial considerations would not be a goer unless...we we're doing a Leeds.

I might have just babbled and not answered your question. If you have one feel free to ask it. I'll answer. I imagine you realize I am not afraid of slings and arrows from the horde. I just prefer reasoned...argument and objectivity instead of blind fanboy support. Not saying you've participated in that but you know what I mean.

Spoiler: Diatribe: incomplete because it got long

But Kane would not have been on my chopping block. But he would NOT have gone this long without competition AND IN NO WAY WOULD HE HAVE STARTED THE CL FINAL FOR ME under the circumstances. But i will leave that for later.

Being interested in what I (or anyone) would have done begins with the acceptance that every position could have been upgraded ie no player on Spu is Messi. With that also comes the acceptance that Danny Rose was right about some players not having competition. ALL of those players without competition have let us down in the last year. Every single last one, Harry included. That is not a situation that can be allowed to happen. Problem #1

And the manager must be put on notice that rotation is club policy. If the player behind is not good enough then recruitment is necessary. Once a player becomes an accepted squad player/not good enough then they should be moved on and upgraded (unless there are HG considerations). Problems #2 and #3.

Six seasons of Poch and 5 with a revamped squad and beyond Wanyama never once was a player brought in that upgraded the first team. How is that allowed to happen? So many very good players for very reasonable prices have moved. I know there was a PR push of 'how do we upgrade a squad of such amazing players' going on but those folks were wrong...and most likely are still wrong in most football things they say.

Being honest and truly critical of the squad is the first step. You bring up Eriksen and i totally agree. I imagine we both admit the quality he does bring but the more important part in this is what he does not bring. He is a player that does well in time and space but cannot create that for himself. For me that's half a player! Someone I would value for his contributions but quickly look to upgrade...and probably strike while the iron's hot. He's got a ceiling that is not much higher than what we have seen and without control of games he will not find time and space which we have seen in the last year+. Right? We see the potential of what somewhat like GLC could bring in the same positions because of his skillset. That's not saying GLC will ever be as good for us as CE but you can see it. but you can never see CE bring the things that GLC brings because he's not a real MFer and can't handle any pressure.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

I am loath to have this type of talk in public because nuanced convo doesn't go over well. My point about Harry has already been taken incorrectly and it was reasonably/rationally supported and spelled out. And that was done by a reasonable poster. I fear that my points will be drastically mischaracterized by the horde.

So you would have been happy to dump CE but you're still pining for Dier? Dudu you are an enigma. I would have been looking at CE as well. But the others would not have been safe either. think of how we ran Dembele into the ground FFS. We knew his fitness issues but did nothing. when Poch was here Ever Banega moved for free 2x I believe and he's now 32 but still better than any MF we can put on the field.

Short answer is I would have looked to get at least 1 upgrade to the first XI each window. Identify your weakness and strengthen it. At each position we could have identified in the past TWs a better player (or a player that showed promis and has turned out to be better) has moved for reasonable money. There was an unwillingness to make good, better. Why? Maybe the stadium, maybe frugality, maybe resistance due to loyalty, etc. I don't know but if lessons are truly learned (they're not) then this wouldn't be allowed to happen again (they will).

I'll use an example from 'Murican sports. The (hated) NE Patriots have what many consider the greatest QB in the history of the game still playing. But he is getting old. Their coach (the greatest gridiron football coach ever) had a falling out with said QB because he wanted to make good, better, and move the old guy on because, like Levy with the stadium but not the team, he had a plan and knew succession is important. That QB has since won two WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS (said for @Gb160 's benefit) or Super Bowls since. but many argue it was the right decision because A) the QB they were going to move to has done well and B) now they have no succession plan.

That type of management is foreign to European footballing audiences. Folks don't wanna be seen as a selling club etc. that's foolish and short-sighted. I feared the Coutinho deal and thought the Hazard move was decent ( @Shadydan ) if Chelsea did the right things...which it seems they have. I would always get rid of 1 player to improve the overall talent and balance of the squad. Harry complicates matters because he's one of our own but I can imagine scenarios where i would drive him to his destination. But those would have to benefit Spurs going forward in both the sporting AND financial aspects. Moving him just for financial considerations would not be a goer unless...we we're doing a Leeds.

I might have just babbled and not answered your question. If you have one feel free to ask it. I'll answer. I imagine you realize I am not afraid of slings and arrows from the horde. I just prefer reasoned...argument and objectivity instead of blind fanboy support. Not saying you've participated in that but you know what I mean.

Spoiler: Diatribe: incomplete because it got long

But Kane would not have been on my chopping block. But he would NOT have gone this long without competition AND IN NO WAY WOULD HE HAVE STARTED THE CL FINAL FOR ME under the circumstances. But i will leave that for later.

Being interested in what I (or anyone) would have done begins with the acceptance that every position could have been upgraded ie no player on Spu is Messi. With that also comes the acceptance that Danny Rose was right about some players not having competition. ALL of those players without competition have let us down in the last year. Every single last one, Harry included. That is not a situation that can be allowed to happen. Problem #1

And the manager must be put on notice that rotation is club policy. If the player behind is not good enough then recruitment is necessary. Once a player becomes an accepted squad player/not good enough then they should be moved on and upgraded (unless there are HG considerations). Problems #2 and #3.

Six seasons of Poch and 5 with a revamped squad and beyond Wanyama never once was a player brought in that upgraded the first team. How is that allowed to happen? So many very good players for very reasonable prices have moved. I know there was a PR push of 'how do we upgrade a squad of such amazing players' going on but those folks were wrong...and most likely are still wrong in most football things they say.

Being honest and truly critical of the squad is the first step. You bring up Eriksen and i totally agree. I imagine we both admit the quality he does bring but the more important part in this is what he does not bring. He is a player that does well in time and space but cannot create that for himself. For me that's half a player! Someone I would value for his contributions but quickly look to upgrade...and probably strike while the iron's hot. He's got a ceiling that is not much higher than what we have seen and without control of games he will not find time and space which we have seen in the last year+. Right? We see the potential of what somewhat like GLC could bring in the same positions because of his skillset. That's not saying GLC will ever be as good for us as CE but you can see it. but you can never see CE bring the things that GLC brings because he's not a real MFer and can't handle any pressure.

You wot?

 

[heelspurs]

You wot?

Don't even know what that mean Doc.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Don't even know what that mean Doc.

Me neither

 

[dudu]

I am loath to have this type of talk in public because nuanced convo doesn't go over well. My point about Harry has already been taken incorrectly and it was reasonably/rationally supported and spelled out. And that was done by a reasonable poster. I fear that my points will be drastically mischaracterized by the horde.

So you would have been happy to dump CE but you're still pining for Dier? Dudu you are an enigma. I would have been looking at CE as well. But the others would not have been safe either. think of how we ran Dembele into the ground FFS. We knew his fitness issues but did nothing. when Poch was here Ever Banega moved for free 2x I believe and he's now 32 but still better than any MF we can put on the field.

Short answer is I would have looked to get at least 1 upgrade to the first XI each window. Identify your weakness and strengthen it. At each position we could have identified in the past TWs a better player (or a player that showed promis and has turned out to be better) has moved for reasonable money. There was an unwillingness to make good, better. Why? Maybe the stadium, maybe frugality, maybe resistance due to loyalty, etc. I don't know but if lessons are truly learned (they're not) then this wouldn't be allowed to happen again (they will).

I'll use an example from 'Murican sports. The (hated) NE Patriots have what many consider the greatest QB in the history of the game still playing. But he is getting old. Their coach (the greatest gridiron football coach ever) had a falling out with said QB because he wanted to make good, better, and move the old guy on because, like Levy with the stadium but not the team, he had a plan and knew succession is important. That QB has since won two WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS (said for @Gb160 's benefit) or Super Bowls since. but many argue it was the right decision because A) the QB they were going to move to has done well and B) now they have no succession plan.

That type of management is foreign to European footballing audiences. Folks don't wanna be seen as a selling club etc. that's foolish and short-sighted. I feared the Coutinho deal and thought the Hazard move was decent ( @Shadydan ) if Chelsea did the right things...which it seems they have. I would always get rid of 1 player to improve the overall talent and balance of the squad. Harry complicates matters because he's one of our own but I can imagine scenarios where i would drive him to his destination. But those would have to benefit Spurs going forward in both the sporting AND financial aspects. Moving him just for financial considerations would not be a goer unless...we we're doing a Leeds.

I might have just babbled and not answered your question. If you have one feel free to ask it. I'll answer. I imagine you realize I am not afraid of slings and arrows from the horde. I just prefer reasoned...argument and objectivity instead of blind fanboy support. Not saying you've participated in that but you know what I mean.

Spoiler: Diatribe: incomplete because it got long

But Kane would not have been on my chopping block. But he would NOT have gone this long without competition AND IN NO WAY WOULD HE HAVE STARTED THE CL FINAL FOR ME under the circumstances. But i will leave that for later.

Being interested in what I (or anyone) would have done begins with the acceptance that every position could have been upgraded ie no player on Spu is Messi. With that also comes the acceptance that Danny Rose was right about some players not having competition. ALL of those players without competition have let us down in the last year. Every single last one, Harry included. That is not a situation that can be allowed to happen. Problem #1

And the manager must be put on notice that rotation is club policy. If the player behind is not good enough then recruitment is necessary. Once a player becomes an accepted squad player/not good enough then they should be moved on and upgraded (unless there are HG considerations). Problems #2 and #3.

Six seasons of Poch and 5 with a revamped squad and beyond Wanyama never once was a player brought in that upgraded the first team. How is that allowed to happen? So many very good players for very reasonable prices have moved. I know there was a PR push of 'how do we upgrade a squad of such amazing players' going on but those folks were wrong...and most likely are still wrong in most football things they say.

Being honest and truly critical of the squad is the first step. You bring up Eriksen and i totally agree. I imagine we both admit the quality he does bring but the more important part in this is what he does not bring. He is a player that does well in time and space but cannot create that for himself. For me that's half a player! Someone I would value for his contributions but quickly look to upgrade...and probably strike while the iron's hot. He's got a ceiling that is not much higher than what we have seen and without control of games he will not find time and space which we have seen in the last year+. Right? We see the potential of what somewhat like GLC could bring in the same positions because of his skillset. That's not saying GLC will ever be as good for us as CE but you can see it. but you can never see CE bring the things that GLC brings because he's not a real MFer and can't handle any pressure.

For the record, had a non-PL side come in for Dier at 50m I would have taken that money for sure. Right now I don't pine for him but I do think he has had a shite time of it the last year and no one player in our side can be singled out for our slide in form under Poch. I just did not think he deserved to be included in posts referencing our relegation form considering he wasn't a part of it whether he would have made a difference or not.

Nearly every player has a monetary value.... Bale was a prime example. So hard to see that Elven hero leave. Did we make good enough use of the money? Probably not overall.

Its a tough balance and I don't envy being the one having to make the big decisions when it comes selling players at their peak. You have to make sure you replace them properly.

Perhaps now, with our standing in the footballing world, we are in a better position to do so than we were than when we sold Bale.

 

[C0YS]

Last season they had some ungodly amount of draws (I was gonna say 'ties' just to send you apoplectic my friend) because they missed sitter after friggin sitter. Marcelino almost got fired in January as they were hovering... But then all those chances created started going in and they moved from 16th to the CL spots. It's brutal.


You don't wanna know my take on this. It would not be popular. But if @Shadydan could behave rationally for a moment he could fill you in on what I believe about team building. You limey bastards English supporters always talk about the badge being bigger than any one player but when push comes to shove those 'principles' go out the window for a chance to win...in the short term. Kinda like welcoming satan Mourinho into the fold. I know Harry is special in play and in spirit but were I in control/power to make these decisions they would be made based on what is best for Spu going forward not what is best for Harry. Perhaps those would be aligned and as long as that was true then great. But were they to become misaligned then decisions based in Spu's best interests would supercede anything to do with Harry.

That said, I am not a fan of goal-scoring strikers. that's not as obvious and straight-forward as it sounds. sure, some from the peanut gallery will chime in and 'derp, derp, derp' away while completely missing my point in order to make cheap internet points. But my bigger point is that I love facilitative strikers, like Firmino, Benzema (and my underrated fave RONDON). Someone with the strength, athleticism, and technical ability to make the whole team more dangerous as opposed to relying on 1 person for goals. As long as the striker can put them in when the ops present themselves...unlike f*cking Maxi Gomez!!!!!!!!

And I see Levy's calculus is all of this and it's just the same calculus as many other 'leaders' have done in the fog of war. The problem with shortterm decision making is that it becomes a cycle of bad decision after bad decision getting you nowhere. Look where ManU have gotten doing the same stupid shit. It's the underpants gnome's plan and step 2 is still missing because step 2 has always been missing and what led to Poch's downfall. And step 2 is having the balls to remake the squad while it is functioning, making good, better.

And Valencia does what Valencia do. Chelsea up 1-2.

Right, but players tend to stick around longer than managers. Kane is more important than Poch was for our future. And Brady comparisons are slightly wrong as american football is a completely different game, and much more structured. Losing Kane would trigger an exodus and complete rebuilds simply don't work in football.

Similarly Jose, or someone of his standing, was the only choice. A young up and comer would also trigger a mass exodus and would result in the need of a complete rebuild. Risks would be higher and all that as well, and most up and coming managers fail to become into big names.

Yea fans in the UK are hypocritical in what they claim to be club values and the reality. But this is in part because identity and success is so involved. Spurs fans in Europe have to face colleagues,families and others everyday. If things go badly we live it. Success breeds pride and peace of mind. You can't escape being a football fan.

I supported Poch and wanted him to turn it around. But he was incredibly stubborn in how he wanted things to be played and it wasn't working. The thing is its not time for long term projects at the moment. Its time to take a few more shots at some silverware. In a few years time then we can build something new again.

Also in Jose repeats the exact same pattern as he did for Man Utd I'd me ecstatic. He had two very good seasons there.

 

[Bulletspur]

I was at the game last night but I like reading the match thread the day after. Some of the over reactions on here are hysterical. We played a pub side, always felt even at 0-2 that we’d probably win. We beat Red Star 5 a few weeks ago ( didn’t they beat this lot?).
I didn’t want MP sacked but I could understand it and once we’d appointed JM i could understand that as well. This squad needed a renowned manager who they’d respect instantly,( there’s not many around) we’ll see how it unfurls in the coming months. But reading back over this thread you’d think Jose had won us the league and Poch was a clueless chancer. He hooked off an unfit defensive midfielder and replaced him with an attacking forward thinking one. Poch didn’t do anything as drastic so early because unless I’m mistaken we were rarely 0-2 at home after 20 minutes.
Some fans are so desperate for success that they ignore the 4 and a half brilliant years of work from Poch. We won countless big games in that time, it’s a myth to say that we didn’t. The old trophy nugget is slightly misleading, we were unlucky and often found ourselves playing excellent teams at the later stages of comps and fell short to a Leicester team that every other team bent over for and a Chelsea side that wasn’t in Europe . Poch made some mistakes and wasn’t faultless by any means but the over reaction by some about Jose’s managerial abilities are a bit desperate. Saying all that I’m desperate for JM to win us a trophy or two but I I’m Just not as confident as some pundits and some on here that he will.

Poch has gone so move on. Most of us have

 

[heelspurs]

Right, but players tend to stick around longer than managers.

But should they if they aren't good enough? 5 year contract so a decision should be made in 3 years of first team duty. Move him on a deal with the consequences. Better too early than too late. looked how clogged we are with 'not good enough'.

Kane is more important than Poch was for our future.

Why? If Pep were our manager would you say the same? If so then you give in to player power right? If you would like to run a billion dollar business by allowing the tail to wag the dog then so be it. That would be your choice. I would make a different choice. but don't focus on kane as that was not my argument, only part of the bigger argument of club before player while admitting his was a special situation. And my argument also focused on years ago not this most recent moment.

And Brady comparisons are slightly wrong as american football is a completely different game, and much more structured.

A statement made without anything to support it or its implied conclusion beyond stating the obiv. It seems you didn't like the point so you search for some reason to dismiss it. Feel free to flesh that out before I accept it as true. It's a hell of a lot easier to move players in Euro football than it is in the NFL. There's a union in the NFL and players have rights that are actually enforced. Players in Euro football are tantamount to chattel.

And the whole point was Belichick had the plan and the f*cking balls to move the golden boy. We can't even move bench players. No plan, no balls. the rest was just detail.

Losing Kane would trigger an exodus and complete rebuilds simply don't work in football.

Really? What was the Poch era my friend? And there's gonna be an exodus anyway. And if you were like me and hope upon all that was holy for an actual painful rebuild then what would an exodus actually do beside achieved your desires anyway? And there was to be an exodus anyway my friend; toby, Jan, CE, Rose, aurier, Dier, Wanyama, etc. OUR WORST PERFORMERS. Tell me what would have been lost? Right!

Yea fans in the UK are hypocritical in what they claim to be club values and the reality.

Yes. Nothing else needed. It's like claiming patriotism when something someone doesn't like is happening. One of those last bastions... good of you to admit it though.

Similarly Jose, or someone of his standing, was the only choice.

No he wasn't. It's this type of short-termism that put ManU where they are. And when this goes tits up Manager X with experience and is a winner will be the only choice...and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on...

A young up and comer would also trigger a mass exodus and would result in the need of a complete rebuild.

Again, we need a complete rebuild. What is a 'painful rebuild' to you? Each year it was neglected the magnitude of the pain increased. and the last 5 seasons have been hell have they not?

Risks would be higher and all that as well, and most up and coming managers fail to become into big names.

So no balls, no plan is the way to go huh? so much fear.

I supported Poch and wanted him to turn it around. But he was incredibly stubborn in how he wanted things to be played and it wasn't working. The thing is its not time for long term projects at the moment. Its time to take a few more shots at some silverware. In a few years time then we can build something new again.

Short termism at it's finest. If you go on Red Cafe right now you will find the same stuff said in lieu of an actual plan.

Also in Jose repeats the exact same pattern as he did for Man Utd I'd me ecstatic. He had two very good seasons there.

He had one decent season when we were at Wembley and choked coming 2nd alowing ManU to steal it. And he spent a boatload to do it. Do you think ManU fans found pride and peace at his time there?

And again, my points were club focused not just at Jose, who is merely a symptom...like a boil, hemorrhoid, anal wart, urethral drip, leprotic skin lesion, etc...

 

[TwanYid]

Right can we all just agree to love the Poch era overall but stop referencing it now to validate a personal position whenever we play poorly (Poch was great but the players are crap) or, once we score four goals (Poch couldn’t have change this game, Mourinho is next level etc). Let’s move forward. COYS.

You never would've posted opinions like that under Poch; now that Mourinho's the gaffer your writing has completely transformed.

 

[C0YS]

But should they if they aren't good enough? 5 year contract so a decision should be made in 3 years of first team duty. Move him on a deal with the consequences. Better too early than too late. looked how clogged we are with 'not good enough'.

You see I think most of our players are good enough. We can and should improve but there is no one in are squad who I don't believe is able to contribute. Its a slightly imbalanced squad but it's also quite clearly the third best in the league.


Why? If Pep were our manager would you say the same? If so then you give in to pla yer power right? If you would like to run a billion dollar business by allowing the tail to wag the dog then so be it. That would be your choice. I would make a different choice. but don't focus on kane as that was not my argument, only part of the bigger argument of club before player while admitting his was a special situation. And my argument also focused on years ago not this most recent moment.

Yes, it would be the same with pep. Manager come and go players tend to stick around. You are confusing how things should be with how things are. Players are both bigger investments and are more likely to contribute to the long term future of a club.

Also losing your best players almost always leads to the club being in a worse position than before. Just ask Real Madrid, Monaco, Lyon, Milan, Dortmund and ohh wait Tottenham.


A statement made without anything to support it or its implied conclusion beyond stating the obiv. It seems you didn't like the point so you search for some reason to dismiss it. Feel free to flesh that out before I accept it as true. It's a hell of a lot easier to move players in Euro football than it is in the NFL. There's a union in the NFL and players have rights that are actually enforced. Players in Euro football are tantamount to chattel.

I have no particular dislike for the comment. Basically, american football is a game of phases with a particular set of possibilities, there is a degree of choas but its much more controlled and quantifiable. Football is an incredibly chaotic uninterrupted game, they arent very comparable. In football it is not always clear what a player contributes until they are not in the team.

Also footballers have a union and that union tends to be interested in making it easier for players to be moved on and contracts to be more easily ignored. Its only an unwritten agreement between clubs that stops clubs having to abide by EU law. In any case a player can and often do refuse to move on when the club wants to and there is nothing the club can do about it.

And the whole point was Belichick had the plan and the f*cking balls to move the golden boy. We can't even move bench players. No plan, no balls. the rest was just detail.

Poch wanted many players gone who know appear to be actually quite useful. Some players simply did not have enough interest to be able to move them on.Who were these players? Wanyama (no interest, didn't want to move to club brugge), Rose (good we kept him), Eriksen (little interest in clubs he would agree to move to), Toby (see eriksen, good we kept him) and Aurier (good we kept him).

Ultimatly none of these players except Wanayama are players who can't contribute, all of them are worth keeping if we are unable to get a good fee. If we were to just throw our players away we would send a dangerous signal that would be very bad for us in the long term.


Really? What was the Poch era my friend? And there's gonna be an exodus anyway. And if you were like me and hope upon all that was holy for an actual painful rebuild then what would an exodus actually do beside achieved your desires anyway? And there was to be an exodus anyway my friend; toby, Jan, CE, Rose, aurier, Dier, Wanyama, etc. OUR WORST PERFORMERS. Tell me what would have been lost? Right!
Well I hope we can keep Toby, Jan, aurier and dier. All of them useful to the club. CE is as good as gone but would be over the moon were we to keep him, while I am happy to keep Rose, he has a part to play. I suspect Toby, Aurier and Dier will stay on. But this isn't the exodus that was looming. All but Victor are useful players.

Not every player needs to be a world beater to be able to contribute effectively to the team. There is a reason Jose said he was excited to work with this team and it wasn't just to boost confidence. We genuinely have a very good team. Don't let poor performances make you think differently.

Its hard to look good at fullback when you are super exposed. Its hard for the defense to do well when they are not protected. Poch played a very brave system, but towards the end he lost balance and the positives of the system no longer outweighed the benefits. We lost balance and Poch was too stubborn to go back to basics. For a while now we have been unable to deal with teams who stop us building from the back or when we lose possession in our own half. We left too much space out wide and between the midfield and defense, we got stretched too easily. Its hard to look good when so exposed.

Yes. Nothing else needed. It's like claiming patriotism when something someone doesn't like is happening. One of those last bastions... good of you to admit it though.

? Yeh football is about identity it works a lot like nationalism. Its not rational. But its what makes sport sport.

No he wasn't. It's this type of short-termism that put ManU where they are. And when this goes tits up Manager X with experience and is a winner will be the only choice...and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on...

Man utd are a poorly run club and that is what has made them suffer. People don't like ENIC but they are super focused on the future. Different managers are needed for different moments. You believe we need a rebuild. I don't, nor does Levy.

Again, we need a complete rebuild. What is a 'painful rebuild' to you? Each year it was neglected the magnitude of the pain increased. and the last 5 seasons have been hell have they not?
? I'm confused. The last 5 have been a pure joy. We just need a little push and a little more. I suspect this was sarcastic. We don't need a rebuild, and the manager we chose reflects that.

So no balls, no plan is the way to go huh? so much fear.

Sacking Poch for Jose took a lot of balls. Might be the wrong decision but its a brave one. I think the plan is clear. Try and get CL this season, try and win something the next. If that fails I suspect we will see some young up and comer come in. This is the last throw of the dice for a team which should win something.

For what its worth success builds a platform that allows you more opportunity to improve, note opportunity to get better players etc etc.

Short termism at it's finest. If you go on Red Cafe right now you will find the same stuff said in lieu of an actual plan.

yeh Man utd's problem is they gave the job to someone out of sentiment who has no experience of this level, and in part some bizzare transfer strategy. I mean the club wouldn't sign Toby because he was 'too old' under Jose.

He had one decent season when we were at Wembley and choked coming 2nd alowing ManU to steal it. And he spent a boatload to do it. Do you think ManU fans found pride and peace at his time there?

We didn't choke coming second at all that season. I don't think we were ever particularly close that year... His first season was also a success with two trophies. Compare that with what came before. Jose remains their best manager since Sir Alex retired. I'd take two seasons like that.

how about we take a look at redcafe and see what they think of him? I suspect you won't find unanimous hate.

And again, my points were club focused not just at Jose, who is merely a symptom...like a boil, hemorrhoid, anal wart, urethral drip, leprotic skin lesion, etc...

Honestly if it wasn't him it should have been allegri or ancellotti, we needed to go big because we have one last shot with this group. If Poch had to go we can't go for another manager who is developing. Because at least half of them flop and even those who succeed don't tend to win much too quickly. Wrong time.

Honestly context is important. There are times for projects and times for people who can bring results. Now is the time for the latter. If you want a project or rebuild you can keep Poch, though maybe he did need to renew some of his coaching staff, or bring in some new ideas, or you go for pedigree.

We went for the latter. Jose is a very very good manager. He has brought success to every club he has been. At Man utd he was burnt out and bitter and still did well compared to what came before and after. Now he looks fresh, has a new coaching staff and has a point to prove. He might not be a success but he is a logical appointment.

You can't replace Poch with potential, Dele, Kane ,Lloris and frankly half the team would look to move on. You need to show ambition. If the players went against Poch, which is very much a possibility, then it really does have to be a big name.

I didn't want Poch to go, however, Jose was who you had to bring in where he to go. Allegri would have been good but more of a gamble, and big question marks if his style would translate in the PL. Ancellotti is all about keeping egos happy since his Chelsea days, but I'm not sure if that style translates outside a super club and ignoring Chelsea and Real Madrid his record is patchy (did well in the CL in Milan but he seriously underperformed in the league).

 

[rez9000]

First off, I'll say that I've seen your nuanced arguments, heelspurs - I acknowledge them, but I've not replied before. There's a reason. And it's a reason I share with a lot of other posters - it would take too long and lead to a very long read. But this time, I've gone for it, and my apologies to those who don't like long reads.

I have to point to something - you have a tendency to throw around rather condescending terms like 'fanboy' and 'derp-derp-derp'. I think, perhaps the problem isn't so much that people don't necessarily identify with your arguments, but that you rather tend to beat them over the head them, as I think we'll see...

But should they if they aren't good enough? 5 year contract so a decision should be made in 3 years of first team duty. Move him on a deal with the consequences. Better too early than too late. looked how clogged we are with 'not good enough'.,

This, to me, is unrealistic.

Succession planning is a good thing, but it's not an easy thing. And you have to remember that football-as-business is still relatively young, so the techniques of business are, even today, still filtering through the sport. Additionally, it is not something that can be applied well across the whole of the sport. And this makes contrasting it with American Football a hopeless exercise.

The organisation of football in this country and in Europe, South America, Asia and Africa is significantly different to the organisation of not just American Football in the States, but football too. With American Football, it's a franchising system overseen by an enormously powerful organisation - the NFL - that stringently controls the manner in which the sport is run (note, I said run, not played). In football, although there certainly are organisations that are powerful and oversee and regulate football, the manner in which a club can be set up and run doesn't have to follow quite so many rules and, more pertinently, the FA cannot prevent a club from being formed, only prevent it from entering the FA system, which it would only do for very specific reasons.

Why? If Pep were our manager would you say the same? If so then you give in to player power right? If you would like to run a billion dollar business by allowing the tail to wag the dog then so be it. That would be your choice. I would make a different choice. but don't focus on kane as that was not my argument, only part of the bigger argument of club before player while admitting his was a special situation. And my argument also focused on years ago not this most recent moment.

No. You see it as the tail wagging the dog, but a player's status carries a lot of weight to a club. The reputation that that player carries has a significant effect and is a marketable asset to that club - something that cannot be dismissed so easily. In football, the players make the team, make the club. The supporters identify with the players far more often than they will with a manager. The affection for Pochettino, for instance, I've never seen or felt for any serving Spurs manager. Nicholson and Burkinshaw are held in high regard, but the number who actually witnessed them, especially Nicholson, is a small segment of the supporters and is diminishing all the time as people age and, sadly, pass on. Whereas, players are far more lauded and prominent in the game - because they are the link between the club and the supporters.

Fifty years ago you'd have players running across the road from the stadium to have a pint with the supporters. Jimmy Greaves used to tell stories about that. They might not do that these days, but it speaks of a particular relationship between player and fan that has not gone away. Would American football players ever do that? I seriously doubt it...

Plus which, you're taking the consideration that some have that Kane is more important than Pochettino was as if that is the permanent state of affairs and would always be the case. It isn't and no-one suggests it is. It is the state of affairs now. It may be different at another time. Let's say we go back in time to the CL quarter-final first leg against Man City. Let's say Delph's tackle on Kane was worse than it was and Kane was permanently injured. No-one in their right minds would say that Kane was more important to the club than Poch then. It is the circumstance. A truly nuanced view would realise that and not argue the toss over the main point. The main point I understand - that a course of action should be taken that brings the greatest benefit to the club. Yes, absolutely. However, you have no way of knowing that if you take advantage of Kane's pricetag that you will definitely improve the team. That increases the risk in the cost-benefit consideration. Whereas what Kane (in this instance) brings to the team, off the pitch is very measurable, putting aside what he brings on the pitch. You claim that you have a nuanced view, but fail to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, others views are just as nuanced. Different to yours does not mean unsophisticated.

A statement made without anything to support it or its implied conclusion beyond stating the obiv. It seems you didn't like the point so you search for some reason to dismiss it. Feel free to flesh that out before I accept it as true. It's a hell of a lot easier to move players in Euro football than it is in the NFL. There's a union in the NFL and players have rights that are actually enforced. Players in Euro football are tantamount to chattel.

And the whole point was Belichick had the plan and the f*cking balls to move the golden boy. We can't even move bench players. No plan, no balls. the rest was just detail.

But you're getting muddled up here. You're using the example of one coach in the United States as a yardstick to measure not just Spurs but seemingly the whole of soccer. Surely the fact that it doesn't happen here, across many a club suggests that that is the reality. By all means suggest that there is a better way, but dismissing it as some deficiency in football that is never going to go away is a little self-righteous, especially as I've not seen you provide much in the way of evidence that the sport your comparing it to actually does the thing you accuse football of not doing...

Really? What was the Poch era my friend? And there's gonna be an exodus anyway. And if you were like me and hope upon all that was holy for an actual painful rebuild then what would an exodus actually do beside achieved your desires anyway? And there was to be an exodus anyway my friend; toby, Jan, CE, Rose, aurier, Dier, Wanyama, etc. OUR WORST PERFORMERS. Tell me what would have been lost? Right!

Can you prove that there is going to be an exodus? Remember extrapolation is not proof. I also would argue that in at least one of the cases you've named, you are in disagreement with the manager of the club. More to the point, the point that @C0YS raised, to my mind, was more about the fact that rebuilds rarely work. And he has a point. And in point of fact, he's arguing the same thing you were arguing earlier regarding Brady and the Patriots - that they didn't have sufficient succession planning to replace him as he aged. The two are different - rebuilds are when managers take a sledgehammer to the teamsheet - replacing significant swathes of their squad. And we've seen it time and again, it causes major problems as the squad readjusts. If you really are advocating succession planning, then you should know what you're advocating - a gradual replacement of those who need to move on. That's not a rebuild.

Yes. Nothing else needed. It's like claiming patriotism when something someone doesn't like is happening. One of those last bastions... good of you to admit it though.

Pardon me, but that's just pretty patronising - no-one has the monopoly on what constitutes support to an individual. You can't arbitrate what qualifies as support. The place that a club has in the heart of each individual supporter and what they believe the identity of that club is is not for you to decide. And this, I think is what elicits the hostile reception your views sometimes get - whether you intend it or not, your view comes across s if you know better how and why someone should support a football club. I refer back to your use of the term 'derp-derp-derp', which I've seen you use a couple of times. This is arrogant, this is condescending, this is you saying that you have the handbook on how someone should support their club and anyone who doesn't is inferior. Sorry, my friend, that doesn't wash.

No he wasn't. It's this type of short-termism that put ManU where they are. And when this goes tits up Manager X with experience and is a winner will be the only choice...and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on...

In your view, it was the incorrect choice, based on your analysis. However, there are many who disagree and with their own analysis. Again, you miss the nuance of understanding that your analysis is not definitively correct. It may turn out to be right, but you have no evidence that it will, because you cannot see into the future to see what happens. I may have a couple of concerns about what may happen under Mourinho's tenure, and I may also have felt that getting rid of Pochettino was the wrong choice (I'm claiming neither of those things, neither am I denying either of those things), but the idea that because you believe Mourinho will definitely bring problems, we should have stuck with Pochettino is false.

You cannot deny that Mourinho has been one of the most successful managers of modern times. That carries weight, that carries significance. We came very close under Pochettino; the crossroads we faced after his sacking was, do we emulate and hope to improve by increments as we did with him, or do we try for the jackpot? If the latter, in the same way that your analysis leads you to conclude that he is going to be disastrous, most of the rest of us use our analysis to conclude that we're not going to hit the jackpot soon with Eddie Howe.

Getting Mourinho may be short-term, but short-termism isn't inherently bad. It depends on what your situation is. If a short-term decision allows you to make a better long-term decision in the future, there's nothing wrong with that.

I'd also draw your attention to the idea that perhaps Man United were already in a state before Mourinho turned up - the fact that Ferguson's successor David Moyes, their talisman Ryan Giggs and the widely-regarded Louis Van Gaal won the square root of one trophy between them says something about the state of the club left behind by Ferguson.

Again, we need a complete rebuild. What is a 'painful rebuild' to you? Each year it was neglected the magnitude of the pain increased. and the last 5 seasons have been hell have they not?

Why? Why do we need a rebuild? They don't work. How many times must we see a manager splurge on a whole raft of players only to see them fail to deliver. Fulham spent over £100 million pounds on new players last season and look where they are - back in the Championship.

So no balls, no plan is the way to go huh? so much fear.

Please. You're just being arrogant now. You accuse C0YS of not bringing evidence and yet you say things like that? Come on.

Plus, a couple of sentences ago your implication was that the club has taken too big a risk by appointing Mourinho. Which is it: play safe with a competent yet unknown quantity or take a risk and appoint one of the biggest names in world football? It can't be both.

Short termism at it's finest. If you go on Red Cafe right now you will find the same stuff said in lieu of an actual plan.

And again - and yet you wonder why people react badly to your posts. Could it be perhaps that it's not your 'nuance' that they're reacting to, but this...?

He had one decent season when we were at Wembley and choked coming 2nd alowing ManU to steal it. And he spent a boatload to do it. Do you think ManU fans found pride and peace at his time there?

And again, my points were club focused not just at Jose, who is merely a symptom...like a boil, hemorrhoid, anal wart, urethral drip, leprotic skin lesion, etc...

And again, your view. And you're seemingly speaking for all Man U fans now. Again, isn't nuance supposed to understand that there are smaller details involved? I've heard Man U fans praise Mourinho and criticise Mourinho. I've even heard Man U fans do both in the same discussion.

That's nuance.

 

[heelspurs]

Honestly context is important. There are times for projects and times for people who can bring results. Now is the time for the latter.

So you are saying that now it is imperative to go for it? I ask when isn't it imperative to 'go for it' in sports? The only difference is you welcome doing it ad hoc and I argue for a plan. Just because you bring in an experienced coach doesn't guarantee you anything. And you give too much credit to coaches. good players make good coaches. A good coach can make a vital move here or there but overall it's good players in a system that takes advantage of their qualities and minimizes their weaknesses.

He might not be a success but he is a logical appointment.

And for me he wasn't the logical appointment but I will get to the difference between us in a bit...

You can't replace Poch with potential, Dele, Kane ,Lloris and frankly half the team would look to move on. You need to show ambition. If the players went against Poch, which is very much a possibility, then it really does have to be a big name.

...and right there you are selling yourself as to why. Half the team are moving on (contractually)and I say fine as most I would have been happy to leave anyway. For me, I say who cares. Let them go...you know, the badge is bigger than any 1 player...or group of players. None are irreplaceable in performance. You are making a decision out of desperation and it will never be optimal. But you don't see it. And you will end up swaying with the wind because when (not if, judging on overwhelming evidence that it would be foolish to ignore or argue against at this point) Mourinho combusts it will still be imperative to win NOW - except that now will be three years hence and no closer to any objective stability and worse off than if we started with a plan right now and jettisoned whomever wanted to go. But you don't see it.

Please understand that I know why Mourinho was hired. I'm not foolish but I also know the short-sightedness that it takes to make that decision. My point about Brady was the long game, planning, balls, and leadership!!!! And I'm not arguing for Poch to still be here. I've had my issues with Poch since the first game of his 3rd season. But my issue would be why didn't anyone else in the club see it? Why was there no other plan in place or coaches beyond the too obvious call to satan?

 

[journeyman]

So almost certainly one of:

PSG
Barca
Juve
Leipzig
Ajax

.... in round of 16.

 

[heelspurs]

Long read.

Spoiler: For Rez

The main point I understand - that a course of action should be taken that brings the greatest benefit to the club. Yes, absolutely. However, you have no way of knowing that if you take advantage of Kane's pricetag that you will definitely improve the team. That increases the risk in the cost-benefit consideration. Whereas what Kane (in this instance) brings to the team, off the pitch is very measurable, putting aside what he brings on the pitch. You claim that you have a nuanced view, but fail to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, others views are just as nuanced. Different to yours does not mean unsophisticated.

I understand Kane's value and have repeatedly pointed it out. Any talk of him leaving was in regards to our ambitions being misaligned. And I've never implied that an opinion different to mine is necessarily 'unsophisticated'. unsophisticated opinions are unsophisticated. And if Kane was dumped tomorrow and we went on to win the PL and CL with his replacement supporters would be singing that players name. And yo know that. C0YS was gracious enough to admit that the badge over any player is applied selectively. You give way too much credit to supporters. Look how many are loving on Mourinho after the beheading of their previous leader. The king is dead, long live the king.



So we are clear this is an academic exercise and I am not calling for Kane's ouster. Though i can see how that could happen.



As for your footie v NFL issue I don't know what that has to do with a club looking to move a player on. I am oh so very aware of the differences between them but that doesn't matter to moving a player. We move and bring in players most cautious transfer windows, right? So the organizational differences aren't really germane are they? The point was about moving the golden boy because the coach had a plan and the balls to do it...in the longterm interests of the club. Though that wasn't in reference to Kane it was made generally about moving players not in the long term interests of the club. The NFL has nothing to do with my point other than to illustrate how BIG this player is and how big the balls of the coach must be. The NFL part was just for context.

No. You see it as the tail wagging the dog, but a player's status carries a lot of weight to a club. The reputation that that player carries has a significant effect and is a marketable asset to that club - something that cannot be dismissed so easily. In football, the players make the team, make the club. The supporters identify with the players far more often than they will with a manager. The affection for Pochettino, for instance, I've never seen or felt for any serving Spurs manager. Nicholson and Burkinshaw are held in high regard, but the number who actually witnessed them, especially Nicholson, is a small segment of the supporters and is diminishing all the time as people age and, sadly, pass on. Whereas, players are far more lauded and prominent in the game - because they are the link between the club and the supporters.

but similarly Winks takes a beating and he's one of our own. so what's the difference? Oh right, one scores goals and helps us win. My point is that were I in charge i would take this capriciousness in mind when making decisions in the best long term interest of the club.

But you're getting muddled up here. You're using the example of one coach in the United States as a yardstick to measure not just Spurs but seemingly the whole of soccer. Surely the fact that it doesn't happen here, across many a club suggests that that is the reality. By all means suggest that there is a better way, but dismissing it as some deficiency in football that is never going to go away is a little self-righteous, especially as I've not seen you provide much in the way of evidence that the sport your comparing it to actually does the thing you accuse football of not doing...

I was pointing it out because of its magnitude. It happens all the time in US sports because teams have a salary cap and older, beloved, high-earning players are moved on. Not all the time but it really happens frequently. The only sport where it doesn't happen is baseball but there are reasons for that. But again this is not about the differences in sports it's a difference in leadership and planning.

Can you prove that there is going to be an exodus? Remember extrapolation is not proof. I also would argue that in at least one of the cases you've named, you are in disagreement with the manager of the club. More to the point, the point that @C0YS raised, to my mind, was more about the fact that rebuilds rarely work. And he has a point. And in point of fact, he's arguing the same thing you were arguing earlier regarding Brady and the Patriots - that they didn't have sufficient succession planning to replace him as he aged. The two are different - rebuilds are when managers take a sledgehammer to the teamsheet - replacing significant swathes of their squad. And we've seen it time and again, it causes major problems as the squad readjusts. If you really are advocating succession planning, then you should know what you're advocating - a gradual replacement of those who need to move on. That's not a rebuild.

Rez, you really need to get off Brady and Pats or get the point that I was making. And surely I know the diff between evolving a squad/succession planning and a full rebuild.

Pardon me, but that's just pretty patronising - no-one has the monopoly on what constitutes support to an individual.

Which was my point. Everyone is free to support the club however they like. And folks that trot out those sayings are the ones trying to control how other support the club.

This is arrogant, this is condescending, this is you saying that you have the handbook on how someone should support their club and anyone who doesn't is inferior. Sorry, my friend, that doesn't wash.

You're right, it doesn't wash. Good thing I haven't done it.

but the idea that because you believe Mourinho will definitely bring problems, we should have stuck with Pochettino is false.

And where have I claimed we should have stuck with Poch? I said I was PochIn. I can totally understand his sacking though. But in his sacking it illustrated to me that folks expected blood from a stone. And past evidence suggests Mourinho will bring problems and you or anyone would be foolish to suggest otherwise given the preponderance of data. Now if you want to get all epistemic then fine, no one knows. But you know which way you'd bet with a gun to your head. And that's what these opinion back and forths are about right? then I ask what's really your problem?

If the latter, in the same way that your analysis leads you to conclude that he is going to be disastrous,

I have not concluded this. After he revamps the squad we may win something but in the end history suggests it will go all pear-shaped. Do you disagree? You are putting words in my mouth Rez. You should not do that. And if you are going to form logical conclusions from things I have said then you should really have a grasp of what i said. Many things i skipped here because they weren't my positions or were the direct opposite of my actual positions.

I'd also draw your attention to the idea that perhaps Man United were already in a state before Mourinho turned up - the fact that Ferguson's successor David Moyes, their talisman Ryan Giggs and the widely-regarded Louis Van Gaal won the square root of one trophy between them says something about the state of the club left behind by Ferguson.

they were but he was supposed to be their successful stop-gap that lead them back to glory.

Why? Why do we need a rebuild? They don't work.

We can go back and forth here but really there's too much. What's a rebuild to you? On the assumption Poch was here and it wouldn't be done in 1 summer i was hoping for 5 first teamers. Why? Because he said painful rebuild that why. And other players gotten in future windows.

Plus, a couple of sentences ago your implication was that the club has taken too big a risk by appointing Mourinho.

No my friend that is your inference. You really must get my points before trying to take them down. Kind of a prerequisite.

And again - and yet you wonder why people react badly to your posts. Could it be perhaps that it's not your 'nuance' that they're reacting to, but this...?

I actually don't give a sh*t how folks react. What i do appreciate is reasoned response like yours and C0YS though. They can disagree as vehemently as they like - as you are doing right now. More power to them. It's the food fight and the feces flinging that becomes annoying and the scoring off cheap internet points. I don't think you've accurately portrayed my positions in here but it seems to have been done in good faith hence my response in kind. the other stuff is just annoying.

And again, your view. And you're seemingly speaking for all Man U fans now. Again, isn't nuance supposed to understand that there are smaller details involved? I've heard Man U fans praise Mourinho and criticise Mourinho. I've even heard Man U fans do both in the same discussion.



That's nuance.

That's not nuance, that's disingenuousness. You know exactly what I mean but you are picking at distinctions with no difference. Would you like me to run a poll on Red Cafe? It still wouldn't be all ManU fans so you'd still have a quibble. I'm sure you could find one somewhere but it wouldn't really make a difference would it? But you know that.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

I agree he’s not changed too much but what he has changed has had an effect;

1) no pissing about between keeper and defenders
2) passing is quicker and more direct
3) we are playing back to front quicker

whilst this isn’t rocket science it is whats right for the current situation which is the pragmatic approach of trying to play the game in the oppenents half.

While I am not criticising this it was clear that by playing more direct we lost control of possession a lot and we were not winning it back quick enough so we, in effect gave them control of the game.

If we are going to play like this then we need to play with more pressing from our midfield higher up and win the ball back quicker.

We are missing a real ball winner a wanyama of a few years ago or a Scotty Parker to keep disrupting the opposing team. Or, perhaps more obviously a more solid defence.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

We are missing a real ball winner a wanyama of a few years ago or a Scotty Parker to keep disrupting the opposing team. Or, perhaps more obviously a more solid defence.

I think this will be will Mourinho’s priority rebuild over the next two windows. It sounds like Bruno Fernandez is a top target but I’d imagine beyond that we’re bound to be looking to strengthen defence and central midfield with a quality CDM

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

I think this will be will Mourinho’s priority rebuild over the next two windows. It sounds like Bruno Fernandez is a top target but I’d imagine beyond that we’re bound to be looking to strengthen defence and central midfield with a quality CDM

Bruno’s release clause is now £85m apparently as he signed a new contract yesterday. I cannot see our Danny doing a deal if true.

 

[allatsea]

Bruno’s release clause is now £85m apparently as he signed a new contract yesterday. I cannot see our Danny doing a deal if true.

They don’t have to sell at that figure though. A lower figure can be agreed if they want or need to sell.

 

[FibreOpticJesus]

They don’t have to sell at that figure though. A lower figure can be agreed if they want or need to sell.

Agreed but it will not be at the price agreed in the summer