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Match Threads Spurs vs Olympiacos - Match Thread

Match Day Prediction

  • Spurs Win

    Votes: 188 96.9%
  • Olympiacos Win

    Votes: 2 1.0%
  • Score Draw

    Votes: 4 2.1%
  • Goalless Draw

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
So you are saying that now it is imperative to go for it? I ask when isn't it imperative to 'go for it' in sports? The only difference is you welcome doing it ad hoc and I argue for a plan. Just because you bring in an experienced coach doesn't guarantee you anything. And you give too much credit to coaches. good players make good coaches. A good coach can make a vital move here or there but overall it's good players in a system that takes advantage of their qualities and minimizes their weaknesses.

Wait I've been with the players over the coaches. Nothing is guaranteed. But Jose is a plan, its just not one you like. Its not ad hoc, it has been my belief that were Poch to go we would need someone with experience and know how to win things.


And for me he wasn't the logical appointment but I will get to the difference between us in a bit...


...and right there you are selling yourself as to why. Half the team are moving on (contractually)and I say fine as most I would have been happy to leave anyway. For me, I say who cares. Let them go...you know, the badge is bigger than any 1 player...or group of players. None are irreplaceable in performance. You are making a decision out of desperation and it will never be optimal. But you don't see it. And you will end up swaying with the wind because when (not if, judging on overwhelming evidence that it would be foolish to ignore or argue against at this point) Mourinho combusts it will still be imperative to win NOW - except that now will be three years hence and no closer to any objective stability and worse off than if we started with a plan right now and jettisoned whomever wanted to go. But you don't see it.

I don't think there is any desperation at play here. We don't always need to be doing long term plans, hopefully we can transition into something in the future. In any case success breads success in football.



Please understand that I know why Mourinho was hired. I'm not foolish but I also know the short-sightedness that it takes to make that decision. My point about Brady was the long game, planning, balls, and leadership!!!! And I'm not arguing for Poch to still be here. I've had my issues with Poch since the first game of his 3rd season. But my issue would be why didn't anyone else in the club see it? Why was there no other plan in place or coaches beyond the too obvious call to satan?
Jose is not Satan he is manager. You see this is where I don't agree. If we were to rebuild I would have kept Poch, if you are going to replace Poch you need a certain name.

Also thankfully we didn't replace Poch back then he bought us much joy for sometime after.

Under Poch we moved up a level, very few people could do what he did. The players need a push and a motivation, we don't need someone who has ideas that take time and players need to get behind and follow. Its not the right moment.

The managers that you suggested earlier are a good example of managers who could quite easily flop in the PL, they are similar to the AVB, Ramos, De Boer type appointments of the past. Who was the last manager like this to succeed in the PL? Its not that often. Big clubs tend to sign managers with good CVs for a good reason.

You don't like Jose, fine, your allowed to. But I don't see any convincing reason why we shouldn't get him.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
So you are saying that now it is imperative to go for it? I ask when isn't it imperative to 'go for it' in sports? The only difference is you welcome doing it ad hoc and I argue for a plan. Just because you bring in an experienced coach doesn't guarantee you anything. And you give too much credit to coaches. good players make good coaches. A good coach can make a vital move here or there but overall it's good players in a system that takes advantage of their qualities and minimizes their weaknesses.


And for me he wasn't the logical appointment but I will get to the difference between us in a bit...


...and right there you are selling yourself as to why. Half the team are moving on (contractually)and I say fine as most I would have been happy to leave anyway. For me, I say who cares. Let them go...you know, the badge is bigger than any 1 player...or group of players. None are irreplaceable in performance. You are making a decision out of desperation and it will never be optimal. But you don't see it. And you will end up swaying with the wind because when (not if, judging on overwhelming evidence that it would be foolish to ignore or argue against at this point) Mourinho combusts it will still be imperative to win NOW - except that now will be three years hence and no closer to any objective stability and worse off than if we started with a plan right now and jettisoned whomever wanted to go. But you don't see it.

Please understand that I know why Mourinho was hired. I'm not foolish but I also know the short-sightedness that it takes to make that decision. My point about Brady was the long game, planning, balls, and leadership!!!! And I'm not arguing for Poch to still be here. I've had my issues with Poch since the first game of his 3rd season. But my issue would be why didn't anyone else in the club see it? Why was there no other plan in place or coaches beyond the too obvious call to satan?

I think the people at the top felt that it was better to replace one man than potentially half the team. Not desperation, but logic.

We, as you say, have what is likely the third-best squad in the league. How easy is it going to be to go out and replicate that if half of them leave? And how much is it going to cost considering how much it cost to assemble the current crop?

I was very cautious of Jose and how he might leave us when he is done here. I wasn't of Poch but I maybe should have been to some degree as we were certainly heading for our worst season for a long time under his tenure.

Perhaps there is a plan for a 'Post Jose' world and we just don't know it yet?
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Jul 25, 2012
4,270
5,105
Perhaps there is a plan for a 'Post Jose' world and we just don't know it yet?
Nice point. Mutually beneficial in a friends with benefits type of way. Jose is our FwB. I can get on-board with that as long as there's no rabbit in our stew in 3 seasons.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
Nice point. Mutually beneficial in a friends with benefits type of way. Jose is our FwB. I can get on-board with that as long as there's no rabbit in our stew in 3 seasons.

Absolutely.

I was pretty vociferous about my hesitancy regarding Jose. It is all and only to do with what kind of state he leaves us in.

Perhaps in 3 years some of the managers you like would have shown their worth even more and would be an even better fit for us.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
Absolutely.

I was pretty vociferous about my hesitancy regarding Jose. It is all and only to do with what kind of state he leaves us in.

Perhaps in 3 years some of the managers you like would have shown their worth even more and would be an even better fit for us.

Realistically I don't see how Jose could leave us in a worst state than what we were facing in 7 months time:

Jan, Toby, Eriksen leaving for free
Our only World class player Kane disillusioned with the project
Rose refusing to leave running down his contract
Dier, Aurier not on side

And that's just the parts I know about but from we've heard other members of the team were disillusioned also, plus things like uncertainty on whether we'd be able to keep Lo Celso if we don't make europe and that's before the issues that Jose will still face in the summer such as what to do with Lloris and Wanyama as we're uncertain what their futures look like due to injuries.

I was Poch in until the bitter end but it was romance and loyalty over logic but on the face of it I don't see Jose as any sort of risk because it looks like just by appointing him we've been able to sort a good amount of the problems that were mounting up. The fact is it's easier for a Chairman to get a new manager and keep players onside than it is to back the manager all the way.
 

dudu

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2011
5,314
11,048
Realistically I don't see how Jose could leave us in a worst state than what we were facing in 7 months time:

Jan, Toby, Eriksen leaving for free
Our only World class player Kane disillusioned with the project
Rose refusing to leave running down his contract
Dier, Aurier not on side

And that's just the parts I know about but from we've heard other members of the team were disillusioned also, plus things like uncertainty on whether we'd be able to keep Lo Celso if we don't make europe and that's before the issues that Jose will still face in the summer such as what to do with Lloris and Wanyama as we're uncertain what their futures look like due to injuries.

I was Poch in until the bitter end but it was romance and loyalty over logic but on the face of it I don't see Jose as any sort of risk because it looks like just by appointing him we've been able to sort a good amount of the problems that were mounting up. The fact is it's easier for a Chairman to get a new manager and keep players onside than it is to back the manager all the way.

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I came to the same conclusion.

Plus there is no point in living in fear of whatever might be.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
Jul 25, 2012
4,270
5,105
Change your avatar, it's time...
WTF Geebs? First my abbreviations and now this. Are you gonna go full SpuSoc next and censor my thoughts? I've had enough of your tough love you meanie. Grieving is not a linear process my friend...or perhaps it's silent protest.:finger::D
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Finally caught up with the game.

Most of the first half, especially the first half hour, was simply crap. I'll come on to the tactical stuff shortly, but we got caught a little bit by various things - Olympiakos came out with their tails up, knocked the ball around quite smartly and hassled us, which we didn't deal with that well. Several players looked off it, confidence got dented. We were stuttering. Both goals conceded were really poor, and fingers could be pointed at several players for each one. One thing that Mourinho has inherited is a woeful ability to defend corner kicks and is one area where improvement has to be a priority. It was a big weakness under Poch and after only 180 minutes of the Jose reign we've already conceded two, plus one disallowed, and given up several other chances.

Obviously I've been watching this knowing the result, but trying to just watch the football match unfold I'm watching and fairly confident we'll score, even at 2-0 down. We're not really doing much with the ball, and several players (Son the biggest culprit) have been various shades of bad, but we've got a lot of time and space to use as Olympiakos sit off and let us have the ball and they aren't overly compact. Having said that, if we'd gone in 2-0 down at HT then that is a different scenario and a tougher task, and it took a generous bit of help from their defender to gift a tap in and we could go in with a goal back and just gave everyone some belief and a spring board to come out second half.

The early sub was refreshing, I'd argue a bit of a no-brainer when 2-0 down, not able to settle on the ball, and a 'midfielder' looking like he's got his feet encased in a couple of tonnes of concrete, and so not anything earth-shatteringly revolutionary tbh, but also not something a lot of managers would have had the bollocks to do so good to see and the game wasn't allowed to drift and we got some proactivity in managing the game.

Second half we just seemed determined to make the comeback and overpowered them I thought. The equaliser I thought we got a bit of luck again, as for me Moura fouled the guy, but quick thinking from those on and off the pitch got us in behind and ultimately the goal. Olympiakos then tried to put their foot back on the gas and we got an open game with far too much time on the ball for everyone out their and our superior quality told. Alli dances around the box at his will and finds Aurier with whole back post area to himself, he finishes emphatically. Kane wraps it up from a free header as they started to wilt. Eventually, job done.

Tactically some interesting stuff to see. Stuck with the same shape as we saw against West Ham. As has been discussed widely, in possession its a 3-2-5 with five attackers and five defenders, as is en vogue with a lot of teams/managers. There's a lot of work to do still for my tastes in the construction and use of the ball but at least it's sensible stuff in terms of shape with width either side and support in the half spaces and we're finding the areas to probe defences and create chances through. Moura is maybe not the best fit for the inside right role (coming and sitting infield between the lines) on paper, and I did moot earlier in the week as to if we'd possibly get an extra playmaker like Eriksen/Lo Celso/Lamela for home games when teams will sit back more and reduce the space on offer, but his inclusion does allow us to defend and then transition/counter in a 4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3 shape and means we have a bit of pace on both flanks to break forward quickly when those moments occur.

Without the ball though I'm really not liking what I'm seeing in these first couple of games. We look farcically open at times, as bad as any time under Poch, and though effort levels from certain individuals have gone up as a collective its got to be much better and much more disciplined. Another priority on the to-do list I'd fully expect.....

Very early days but a couple of baby steps taken forward in terms of building a bit of form and confidence, we hope it carries on.
 
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