Match Threads Spurs vs Manchester City - Match Thread

[ardiles&villa]

Some of these comments are ridiculous...we played very well. Yes at times we rode our luck but the effort from the boys and pure determination to win that game won it for us. For those of you who aren’t happy that we sat back, get a grip....

 

[worcestersauce]

Some of these comments are ridiculous...we played very well. Yes at times we rode our luck but the effort from the boys and pure determination to win that game won it for us. For those of you who aren’t happy that we sat back, get a grip....

When you play Manchester City it's not always your own choice to sit back they do tend to have some input to that.
I know they had lots of chances but it wasn't all down to them playing silly buggers that they didn't score we defended well enough to stop them, the number of times City slide the ball down to the byline and cut it back for someone to score I've lost count but every time they did that on Sunday one of ours was with them and it didn't come off, that's not luck.

 

[Guernman]

and once again, Tanganga, in presumably his least preferred position, covered himself with glory. Talk about strengthening our defence in January....

 

[Bulletspur]

To be fair he made a fantastic save onto the post from Ageuro, albeit a slight touch but it's in without it.

Extremely different game had that gone in.

He was definitely our MOTM yesterday.

Personally i think we'd be 4/5 points better off had he not got injured.

A Lloris or 2105 to 2019 I would agree with you but this season he has been poor. Remember he got injured while conceding a goal of keystone cops proportions. So no I don't think we would be 4/5 points better off
My opinion of course

 

[Shadydan]

A Lloris or 2105 to 2019 I would agree with you but this season he has been poor. Remember he got injured while conceding a goal of keystone cops proportions. So no I don't think we would be 4/5 points better off
My opinion of course

He seems to have newly found confidence especially since now he's not playing as a ball paying keeper nor is he instructed to pass it out from the back all the time which seems to suit his game more, pretty sure he would have saved more shots than Gazzaniga.

 

[Gb160]

He seems to have newly found confidence especially since now he's not playing as a ball paying keeper nor is he instructed to pass it out from the back all the time which seems to suit his game more, pretty sure he would have saved more shots than Gazzaniga.

The save from Aguero where he throws a leg out, gets the slightest touch and onto the post...no way Gazza gets anything on that, its his main weakness, low hard shots just to one side of him. The importance of that save cannot be underestimated.

 

[Bulletspur]

He seems to have newly found confidence especially since now he's not playing as a ball paying keeper nor is he instructed to pass it out from the back all the time which seems to suit his game more, pretty sure he would have saved more shots than Gazzaniga.

While you and @Mr Pink could be correct, do not underestimate the competent performance of Gazza who stepped up big time.

 

[ajspurs]

Is so funny watching pundits and other fans emphasising on how lucky we were and that we were still crap yet if their respective teams did the same they'd be beaming and finding positives, praising the attitude, determination, clinical finishing etc.

There are times in football where you just have to praise the result, irrespective of the performance and this was one of those times IMO. It's like all of a sudden everyone's forgotten that we still have problems of our own and still managed to beat one of the top teams in the world.

He seems to have newly found confidence especially since now he's not playing as a ball paying keeper nor is he instructed to pass it out from the back all the time which seems to suit his game more, pretty sure he would have saved more shots than Gazzaniga.

I was going to say exactly this, he's not hesitating in hoofing the ball straight up the field He now looks a much more competent keeper for it though.

 

[Shadydan]

While you and @Mr Pink could be correct, do not underestimate the competent performance of Gazza who stepped up big time.

I'm not, I just think Lloris is a better keeper and he would have saved more shots than Gazza would.

 

[Havre]

Clearly we were lucky, but I also think we were very solid and could have created a lot more ourselves. One can argue one could always say that after a game, but if you look at some key situations they were either unlucky or what I consider mistakes not normally seen (even if we are more prone to those kind of mistakes than most playing Aurier and Sanchez).

Three of the most dangerous chances City had should really never have happened. Sanchez missing a simple pass leads to Aguero hitting the lost. Any PL player shouldn't miss that kind of pass so bad more than 1 out of 1000. Even for Sanchez that is worse than normal. Then the one were it looked to me a clear free kick on Lo Celso (not seen the replay so I might be wrong). The third is the penalty which you got to be Aurier to concede. City did create some more chances as well, but to me we were never shaken as in them out playing us. In the away game it felt like it was always one pass away from a chance against. Not like that this time.

Going forward it really is astonishing how we keep on missing simple passes on the CA. The likes of Winks, Alli, Lo Celso, Lucas and Son should all be decent passers, but on the CA they for some odd reason often end up looking clumsy. Expecting that to improve step by step as we to along.

Not a brilliant performance, but a step in the right direction for me in that kind of game. I'm not seeing much to get excited of against well organized teams, but defensive structure and the movement on the CA looks better than it has.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

A Lloris or 2105 to 2019 I would agree with you but this season he has been poor. Remember he got injured while conceding a goal of keystone cops proportions. So no I don't think we would be 4/5 points better off
My opinion of course

He seems to have newly found confidence especially since now he's not playing as a ball playing keeper nor is he instructed to pass it out from the back all the time which seems to suit his game more, pretty sure he would have saved more shots than Gazzaniga.

The save from Aguero where he throws a leg out, gets the slightest touch and onto the post...no way Gazza gets anything on that, its his main weakness, low hard shots just to one side of him. The importance of that save cannot be underestimated.

I agree we would have conceded fewer goals if Lloris had not been injured, but I don't think it would have had much to do with saves. Very few of our goals this season have been goalkeeping errors and both 'keepers have made them.

The difference is Lloris' mobility and speed. Our defensive line, especially Vertonghen and Rose, have been accustomed to have Lloris sweeping up if the ball goes behind them and they lose an attacker. We never quite notice that, because there isn't a save and there isn't a shot. There's just Lloris with the ball in his hands and a frustrated opposition striker.

Gazzaniga is a capable goalkeeper, but he's nowhere near as fast off his line as Lloris. It's not just Hugo's foot-speed, it's his reaction-time. Our defence got blamed for errors that wouldn't have been errors with our usual goalkeeper. I thought this before Lloris returned. In the games he's been back, it's been just glaringly obvious.

P.S. He's still a "ball playing 'keeper". Just not all the time. Specifically, not when he has 2-3 opposition players lurking on the edge of the penalty box. Mourinho has clearly told the defence to cut that out, but when there's no pressure, he still usually plays it short. With Pochettino, it was a principle. Pochettino didn't like compromise. Mourinho is a pragmatist.

 

[buckley]

Little acorns and all that . Things definitely looking up time after time over the years we have played top six sides and played them off the field only to be beaten by some late goal or by some bad ref decisions and be told we can't complain because we did not take our chances .
Same applies here they did not take their chances we did end of .

 

[Gb160]

Gazzaniga is a capable goalkeeper, but he's nowhere near as fast off his line as Lloris. It's not just Hugo's foot-speed, it's his reaction-time. Our defence got blamed for errors that wouldn't have been errors with our usual goalkeeper. I thought this before Lloris returned. In the games he's been back, it's been just glaringly obvious.

This is the crux of it I think David, I was watching the cricket earlier and the commentators were chatting about what separates the very best batsmen from the rest, the conclusion was that it is exactly the bit I've bolded.
In cricket the batsmen has approx 0.25 of a second from when the bowler lets go of the ball, to work out what type of delivery is being bowled, get himself in position, and then start executing whatever shot he'll play, the very best batsmen seem to be able to do all this with ease.
I think with goalkeepers, whether its deciding to come off the line or throwing a limb out towards the ball, this is also what seperates the good from the elite.
It's all about reaction time.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

This is the crux of it I think David, I was watching the cricket earlier and the commentators were chatting about what separates the very best batsmen from the rest, the conclusion was that it is exactly the bit I've bolded.
In cricket the batsmen has approx 0.25 of a second from when the bowler lets go of the ball, to work out what type of delivery is being bowled, get himself in position, and then start executing whatever shot he'll play, the very best batsmen seem to be able to do all this with ease.
I think with goalkeepers, whether its deciding to come off the line or throwing a limb out towards the ball, this is also what separates the good from the elite.
It's all about reaction time.

Some of reaction time, for elite athletes, is physiological - the percentage of fast-twitch muscle one has genetically.

But a hell of a lot of it is about relentless practice. Repetitive practice. When you've done a specific move, shot, turn or save 1,000 times, your brain deals with it differently - it gets administered by the cerebellum and your executive mind in the cerebral cortex scarcely even gets involved.

I know this directly from music, specifically singing. Back in the day, when I was in oddball experimental rock/funk/jazz bands, you'd get a common theme from some musicians (mainly guitarists, I observed), who'd maintain that "I don't want to develop too much technique 'cause it'll fuck up my feel". It was a bit of reverse snobbery that drove me nuts, because it was a total misunderstanding of the point of technique, an assumption that the point of being able to play fast and elaborately was to play fast and elaborately. Of course not! Unless you're a guitarist...

The main point of being able to play fast and elaborately is so you can play the normal stuff with more expression. The less of your brain you have to use to put your fingers in the right place, the more you have spare to think about the groove, the feeling of the song, to listen to what everyone else is playing so you can mesh your sound into the group.

It's the same for singers. You steal everything you can from everyone you can and learn how to do it until you don't have to think about how, you just do it. At any given point in a song, you have 5 or 6 different things you can do, timing-wise, changing the tone of your voice, slides, melisma, vibrato, all the tricks right at your tongue-tip so you can choose the right one, the one that fits what you're trying to do.

A footballer is the same. Kane's penalties are lethal because he hits thousands of penalties and can think about where to put it and the associated mind-games, rather than worrying about banging it over the bar. Beckham's crosses likewise. Gower's strokeplay. Murray's forehand. Jeter's ability to hit to the opposite field. And I think a lot of Lloris' quick reaction time is down to him drilling game situations until he doesn't need to think, he just goes.

"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

 

[Gareth88]

Some of reaction time, for elite athletes, is physiological - the percentage of fast-twitch muscle one has genetically.

But a hell of a lot of it is about relentless practice. Repetitive practice. When you've done a specific move, shot, turn or save 1,000 times, your brain deals with it differently - it gets administered by the cerebellum and your executive mind in the cerebral cortex scarcely even gets involved.

I know this directly from music, specifically singing. Back in the day, when I was in oddball experimental rock/funk/jazz bands, you'd get a common theme from some musicians (mainly guitarists, I observed), who'd maintain that "I don't want to develop too much technique 'cause it'll fuck up my feel". It was a bit of reverse snobbery that drove me nuts, because it was a total misunderstanding of the point of technique, an assumption that the point of being able to play fast and elaborately was to play fast and elaborately. Of course not! Unless you're a guitarist...

The main point of being able to play fast and elaborately is so you can play the normal stuff with more expression. The less of your brain you have to use to put your fingers in the right place, the more you have spare to think about the groove, the feeling of the song, to listen to what everyone else is playing so you can mesh your sound into the group.

It's the same for singers. You steal everything you can from everyone you can and learn how to do it until you don't have to think about how, you just do it. At any given point in a song, you have 5 or 6 different things you can do, timing-wise, changing the tone of your voice, slides, melisma, vibrato, all the tricks right at your tongue-tip so you can choose the right one, the one that fits what you're trying to do.

A footballer is the same. Kane's penalties are lethal because he hits thousands of penalties and can think about where to put it and the associated mind-games, rather than worrying about banging it over the bar. Beckham's crosses likewise. Gower's strokeplay. Murray's forehand. Jeter's ability to hit to the opposite field. And I think a lot of Lloris' quick reaction time is down to him drilling game situations until he doesn't need to think, he just goes.

"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

Google Maps

 

[skiba]

Some of reaction time, for elite athletes, is physiological - the percentage of fast-twitch muscle one has genetically.

But a hell of a lot of it is about relentless practice. Repetitive practice. When you've done a specific move, shot, turn or save 1,000 times, your brain deals with it differently - it gets administered by the cerebellum and your executive mind in the cerebral cortex scarcely even gets involved.

I know this directly from music, specifically singing. Back in the day, when I was in oddball experimental rock/funk/jazz bands, you'd get a common theme from some musicians (mainly guitarists, I observed), who'd maintain that "I don't want to develop too much technique 'cause it'll fuck up my feel". It was a bit of reverse snobbery that drove me nuts, because it was a total misunderstanding of the point of technique, an assumption that the point of being able to play fast and elaborately was to play fast and elaborately. Of course not! Unless you're a guitarist...

The main point of being able to play fast and elaborately is so you can play the normal stuff with more expression. The less of your brain you have to use to put your fingers in the right place, the more you have spare to think about the groove, the feeling of the song, to listen to what everyone else is playing so you can mesh your sound into the group.

It's the same for singers. You steal everything you can from everyone you can and learn how to do it until you don't have to think about how, you just do it. At any given point in a song, you have 5 or 6 different things you can do, timing-wise, changing the tone of your voice, slides, melisma, vibrato, all the tricks right at your tongue-tip so you can choose the right one, the one that fits what you're trying to do.

A footballer is the same. Kane's penalties are lethal because he hits thousands of penalties and can think about where to put it and the associated mind-games, rather than worrying about banging it over the bar. Beckham's crosses likewise. Gower's strokeplay. Murray's forehand. Jeter's ability to hit to the opposite field. And I think a lot of Lloris' quick reaction time is down to him drilling game situations until he doesn't need to think, he just goes.

"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

Have you read Bounce by Mathew Syed David? Really interesting book on the ‘myth of talent’.

There’s a bit about how Desmond Douglas was considered to have by far the best reactions in the whole of table tennis but when they tested the players for reaction speeds with hitting lights etc he was one of the worst.

Turns out that Desmond had learned to play in a tiny room with no space to go backwards. It was practicing for hours and hours in this way that made him the player he was rather than a having some sort of natural talent for reactions.

 

[mpickard2087]

I agree we would have conceded fewer goals if Lloris had not been injured, but I don't think it would have had much to do with saves. Very few of our goals this season have been goalkeeping errors and both 'keepers have made them.

The difference is Lloris' mobility and speed. Our defensive line, especially Vertonghen and Rose, have been accustomed to have Lloris sweeping up if the ball goes behind them and they lose an attacker. We never quite notice that, because there isn't a save and there isn't a shot. There's just Lloris with the ball in his hands and a frustrated opposition striker.

Gazzaniga is a capable goalkeeper, but he's nowhere near as fast off his line as Lloris. It's not just Hugo's foot-speed, it's his reaction-time. Our defence got blamed for errors that wouldn't have been errors with our usual goalkeeper. I thought this before Lloris returned. In the games he's been back, it's been just glaringly obvious.

P.S. He's still a "ball playing 'keeper". Just not all the time. Specifically, not when he has 2-3 opposition players lurking on the edge of the penalty box. Mourinho has clearly told the defence to cut that out, but when there's no pressure, he still usually plays it short. With Pochettino, it was a principle. Pochettino didn't like compromise. Mourinho is a pragmatist.

I'd quibble with a bit of that, David. Lloris is a much better shot stopper, in terms of his reactions, variety of saves, and just all round ability. I think we got a large enough sample size to see that Gazzaniga does have a weakness when it comes to low shots, particularly to his right hand side where he conceded three or four in his run in the team that, whilst not outright howlers, were very soft and the level(s) above that Hugo and other keepers are at they don't have that sort of glaring hole in their ability.

He's also by far more proactive and willing to come out of his comfort zone and mop up or claim the ball.

But having said that, I read your description of him and agree - but in the past tense. Now he sweeps up mostly basic stuff, and has his heroic moments occasionally, but it hasn't been for a few years now that he's been the full on sweeper keeper. Early on under Poch he came out much more, and under AVB I thought he was even better in this aspect. Full on, balls out, and ultra commanding of anything that got within 20-30-even 40 yards of our goal at times. Since his head injury he has become more cautious, many times the ball gets in behind us and I'm thinking "Hugo, where are you?" and whilst operating in that manner you have to accept there will be errors, it certainly feels like in the last couple of seasons his decision making got more erratic and a bit more costly. At least a couple of goals I can recall where he came out (to not critical danger at that) and was nowhere near it and it looked silly as the ball got tapped into an empty net. And let's be honest, on Sunday again he got that very wrong, a) Tanganga had the situation under control and b) the ball hadn't even reached the penalty area for him to claim.

In his comeback I think he's looked a refreshed character and certainly added a bit more presence and aura in net (not sure that translates to a more solid defence though), and is clearly our best keeper. But he isn't the keeper he once was, to my eyes, though under Mourinho and playing a lower block defence and with less responsibility to find passes out from the back I'm not sure that matters.

 

[paddieu]

Speaking of Rangers managers, Souness despite being school by our own Bill Nicholson was that type of player. He crocked Tony Galvin in the 1982 League Cup Final to nullify his threat. It worked. We lost. Souness has a number of such tackles in his scrapbook especially in his player-manager days at Ibrox which set the tone for his team as they returned to title winning ways.

The pundits who played the game always come across holier than thou and back players and saying no one ever sets out to hurt a fellow professional. That is not my experience in the game. I have former managers and team mates say one thing in the media, but do something else on the pitch and in the dressing room. And some of the worst tackles I have seen were in training when it was clear a teammate set out to do a rival or put one in his place. But none were that type of player or manager. Sure!

he was the dirtiest bastard that ever crawled onto a british football field... he ended the careers of a few players

 

[ardiles]

The save from Aguero where he throws a leg out, gets the slightest touch and onto the post...no way Gazza gets anything on that, its his main weakness, low hard shots just to one side of him. The importance of that save cannot be underestimated.

I think that’s because of Hugo’s superior agility over Gazza but I’m not blaming that on Gazza as taller players tend to be less agile.

 

[wishkah]

Basically the same... View attachment 62630

due to the response, i've decided to invest my total winnings into tonights game. Going big!!