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Spurs and VAR

Marty

Audere est farce
Mar 10, 2005
39,885
62,558
I think it was Michael Cox of Zonal Marking and The Athletic who pointed out that what football fans want from the rules of the game is impossible to deliver.

Fans want consistency, but they also want refs to apply common sense. But what is common sense if it doesn't involve occasionally bypassing the rules, thereby making the application of the rules inconsistent?

This conundrum is what has led to VAR in the first place, and what VAR has succeeded with, even though it feels utterly shit to be on the end of some of these decisions, is how it's highlighted once and for all how some of the laws of the game are totally unfit for purpose in the minds of most fans.

For what it's worth I hope football settles on a challenge system for VAR sooner rather than later. It really feels like the only logical way forward.
 
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Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
doesn't help either that the officials are just utter shit also.

var - shit
officials - shitter
random interpretation by clueless morons - shittest.

not great really.

Or alternatively

Players and commentators understanding of the laws, which is where most people get their understanding of the game from - Shit
Fans understanding of the laws of the games - Shitter
Random partisan interpretation of laws or the situation that occurs, by fans to suit their side of any decision they want given or not given - Shittest
 
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Croftwoodspurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2012
357
648
What is not clear , the rules states when the ball is played, now does that mean the first point of contact or when it actually leaves his foot.

As other have already stated, the technology is not quick enough to get the exact point when it was played. They should have a margin of error of either way, and then if the attacker is brought back and still ahead of the defender then he would be classed offside,

Computers are now quick enought to calculate that margin of error.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
What is not clear , the rules states when the ball is played, now does that mean the first point of contact or when it actually leaves his foot.

As other have already stated, the technology is not quick enough to get the exact point when it was played. They should have a margin of error of either way, and then if the attacker is brought back and still ahead of the defender then he would be classed offside,

Computers are now quick enought to calculate that margin of error.

To me it is irrelevant.
Even at 50 frames per second, which is less time than it takes you to blink, the technology is infinitely better than a linesman (to use an old term), guessing from 50 yards, when he has to try and look along the line and make a judgement at the exact time another player maybe 30 yards or so behind actually kicks the ball.
We are getting infinitely better offside decisions now, and that is what the clubs want, so that is exactly what we will continue to get.
If people do not like it, then basically need to decide whether they want to follow the sport any more, because technology based minimal offside decisions are here to stay, and you could say let's move the line by 20mm, but offsides at 19mm and 21mm would still be contested by fans.

If you don't accept VAR for offside, pointless moaning about it, either stop watching the game or shut up, that is basically what the football clubs and authorities are saying, and they have that right to.

They will do something to adjust the handball law going back slightly more towards what we had before, but offside based on the technology will be the case ongoing.
 
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thebenjamin

Well-Known Member
Jul 1, 2008
12,164
38,545
To me it is irrelevant.
Even at 50 frames per second, which is less time than it takes you to blink, the technology is infinitely better than a linesman (to use an old term), guessing from 50 yards, when he has to try and look along the line and make a judgement at the exact time another player maybe 30 yards or so behind actually kicks the ball.
We are getting infinitely better offside decisions now, and that is what the clubs want, so that is exactly what we will continue to get.
If people do not like it, then basically need to decide whether they want to follow the sport any more, because technology based minimal offside decisions are here to stay, and you could say let's move the line by 20mm, but offsides at 19mm and 21mm would still be contested by fans.

If you don't accept VAR for offside, pointless moaning about it, either stop watching the game or shut up, that is basically what the football clubs and authorities are saying, and they have that right to.

They will do something to adjust the handball law going back slightly more towards what we had before, but offside based on the technology will be the case ongoing.

The people that actually make the rules have said they're not changing the handball law and it will remain that any contact at all with the arm in the build up to a goal will mean no goal.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
The people that actually make the rules have said they're not changing the handball law and it will remain that any contact at all with the arm in the build up to a goal will mean no goal.

No they haven't. The law IS changing for next season (actually has already changed for any competitions that start on or after July 1) to take account of the distance ball travels and passage of play after the handball.
As such the Kane goal would still be ruled out, but the one Man City had ruled out for similar accidental handball would not be ruled out next season.

This is the new relevant part of the handball law that will become effective from next season

"• after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s
hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
• scores in the opponents’ goal
• creates a goal-scoring opportunity"

"Clarification that:

• if an attacking player accidentally touches the ball with their hand/arm and the ball then
goes to another attacking player and the attacking team immediately scores, this is a
handball offence;
• it is not an offence if, after an accidental handball, the ball travels some distance (pass
or dribble) and/or there are several passes before the goal or goal-scoring opportunity."



Bolded bit is new for next season.
 
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Who’s our next manager?

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2020
1,231
1,806
Liverpool and VAR is most interesting. Since the restart Liverpool have brought back 25 employees from their spell on furlough, 14 referees, 7 linesmen and 4 VAR operatives. I’m just bitter after the Champions League Final"
 

spud

Well-Known Member
Sep 2, 2003
5,850
8,794
The people that actually make the rules have said they're not changing the handball law and it will remain that any contact at all with the arm in the build up to a goal will mean no goal.
Fair enough I suppose, but why only when it leads to a goal? What if it leads to a throw-in, free kick or a corner and a goal results from that?

We therefore have, and will continue to have, two separate interpretations of the law of handball depending on what happens a short but indeterminate time after the handball occurs. That hardly seems ideal.
 

Pochemon94

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2019
1,609
4,371
Fair enough I suppose, but why only when it leads to a goal? What if it leads to a throw-in, free kick or a corner and a goal results from that?

We therefore have, and will continue to have, two separate interpretations of the law of handball depending on what happens a short but indeterminate time after the handball occurs. That hardly seems ideal.

I think they said at the beginning of the season that it would be considered another "faze" of attack so the goal would stand
 

mr ashley

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
3,126
8,524
To me it is irrelevant.
Even at 50 frames per second, which is less time than it takes you to blink, the technology is infinitely better than a linesman (to use an old term), guessing from 50 yards, when he has to try and look along the line and make a judgement at the exact time another player maybe 30 yards or so behind actually kicks the ball.
We are getting infinitely better offside decisions now, and that is what the clubs want, so that is exactly what we will continue to get.
If people do not like it, then basically need to decide whether they want to follow the sport any more, because technology based minimal offside decisions are here to stay, and you could say let's move the line by 20mm, but offsides at 19mm and 21mm would still be contested by fans.

If you don't accept VAR for offside, pointless moaning about it, either stop watching the game or shut up, that is basically what the football clubs and authorities are saying, and they have that right to.

They will do something to adjust the handball law going back slightly more towards what we had before, but offside based on the technology will be the case ongoing.
Shame that you had to try to shut this down in a condescending way, because you’re probably right.
I’m sure the majority of us on here understand that we can’t influence things by posting our opinions and suggestions, just as we can’t influence team selection or transfers/scouting.
But we can still enjoy a healthy debate about it
 

Croftwoodspurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2012
357
648
To me it is irrelevant.
Even at 50 frames per second, which is less time than it takes you to blink, the technology is infinitely better than a linesman (to use an old term), guessing from 50 yards, when he has to try and look along the line and make a judgement at the exact time another player maybe 30 yards or so behind actually kicks the ball.
We are getting infinitely better offside decisions now, and that is what the clubs want, so that is exactly what we will continue to get.
If people do not like it, then basically need to decide whether they want to follow the sport any more, because technology based minimal offside decisions are here to stay, and you could say let's move the line by 20mm, but offsides at 19mm and 21mm would still be contested by fans.

If you don't accept VAR for offside, pointless moaning about it, either stop watching the game or shut up, that is basically what the football clubs and authorities are saying, and they have that right to.

They will do something to adjust the handball law going back slightly more towards what we had before, but offside based on the technology will be the case ongoing.

I'm for using VAR to get the correct decision.. But as a few have said the technology still has a margin of error.. The margin can be as much as 20cm... That difference is quite significant and not as close 20mm.. So the need to zoom is not in as important...

I agree in the decisions are vastly improved when just using linesman...

As fans we will always have something to moan about... Lol
 

mightyspur

Now with lovely smooth balls
Aug 21, 2014
9,760
27,014
No they haven't. The law IS changing for next season (actually has already changed for any competitions that start on or after July 1) to take account of the distance ball travels and passage of play after the handball.
As such the Kane goal would still be ruled out, but the one Man City had ruled out for similar accidental handball would not be ruled out next season.

This is the new relevant part of the handball law that will become effective from next season

"• after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s
hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
• scores in the opponents’ goal
• creates a goal-scoring opportunity"

"Clarification that:

• if an attacking player accidentally touches the ball with their hand/arm and the ball then
goes to another attacking player and the attacking team immediately scores, this is a
handball offence;
• it is not an offence if, after an accidental handball, the ball travels some distance (pass
or dribble) and/or there are several passes before the goal or goal-scoring opportunity."



Bolded bit is new for next season.
Scoring a direct goal off the hand whether deliberate or accidental, I can get on board with the law disallowing it, but accidental handball leading to a goal similar to Moura's or Man Citys just seems ridiculous. It was probably made worse by the fact Lucas was fouled and the ref was playing advantage, but he knew nothing about it and ultimately could have bounced anywhere.
 

The Long Suffering One

Well-Known Member
Mar 13, 2014
819
3,973
Is it any wonder that why of all the leagues all over that used VAR, it is the league that doesn't allow / mandate / encourage its on pitch refs to consult video monitors that throws up the most controversies? The only league that does this.

It's like having a multi national company setting up branch offices in various parts of the world and a branch in, say, Japan implements work procedures away from its main company's norms just because they want to be different from the other branch offices.

I might get shot down for this, but I've felt suspicious about the way this league is run ever since they decided from day one they were not going to let on pitch refs view incidents for themselves.

It just feels so much easier to influence games through decisions made by people who are not directly involved in the thick of the action, sitting there with a copy of the rulebook in one hand and benefit of technology in another. It just seems so robotic. The actual man in the middle is reduced to the role being a puppet, controlled by his masters back at some video control room.

Why has the PL decided to implement this version of VAR and not follow what other leagues do which is in line with Fifa's and Uefa's protocols is just beyond me. It's just not the league that I used to fall in love with anymore.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
Is it any wonder that why of all the leagues all over that used VAR, it is the league that doesn't allow / mandate / encourage its on pitch refs to consult video monitors that throws up the most controversies? The only league that does this.

It's like having a multi national company setting up branch offices in various parts of the world and a branch in, say, Japan implements work procedures away from its main company's norms just because they want to be different from the other branch offices.

I might get shot down for this, but I've felt suspicious about the way this league is run ever since they decided from day one they were not going to let on pitch refs view incidents for themselves.

It just feels so much easier to influence games through decisions made by people who are not directly involved in the thick of the action, sitting there with a copy of the rulebook in one hand and benefit of technology in another. It just seems so robotic. The actual man in the middle is reduced to the role being a puppet, controlled by his masters back at some video control room.

Why has the PL decided to implement this version of VAR and not follow what other leagues do which is in line with Fifa's and Uefa's protocols is just beyond me. It's just not the league that I used to fall in love with anymore.

If the on pitch ref in the Sheffield United game goes and looks at his monitor for the disallowed goal I think he gives it. I was thinking that at the time he wouldn’t be able to be 100% certain the ball him Lucas’s arm and would have a better idea if it did by being on the pitch as he would have had the actual physical experience of being there, feeling the players response etc. None of the opponents appealed for a handball did they? Saying that I don’t think the VAR official could tell either, he guessed and for whatever reason disallowed it. Would he have done differently for another club, quite possibly.

So I think they need to use the monitors. It is very strange they don’t. It is almost like they want to take the power away from the ref on the pitch instead of empowering him, which would make him a better official.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Feels like they are on a sabotage mission in the PL, fucking things up on purpose - maybe because they didn't want it in the first place.
 

mr ashley

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
3,126
8,524

You couldn’t make it up.
Who are the people at the PL match centre, and why can’t they do the VAR reviews instead.
Its a really worrying situation we have, when our (professional) referees can’t get decisions right, even after watching a replay.
 

nidge

Sand gets everywhere!!!!!
Staff
Jul 27, 2004
24,858
11,358
The PGMOL is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was) all that VAR has become is a cabal or refereeing mates to afraid to over rule a decision that their mate has got wrong and this is in turn corrupting the game we all love.

It's not the technology that is getting decisions wrong, it's still people fucking up.
 

14/04/91

Well-Known Member
Jan 13, 2006
3,526
5,693
The PGMOL is no longer fit for purpose (if it ever was) all that VAR has become is a cabal or refereeing mates to afraid to over rule a decision that their mate has got wrong and this is in turn corrupting the game we all love.

It's not the technology that is getting decisions wrong, it's still people fucking up.

That’s a great point. Having a current ref doing the VAR is a conflict of interest as they don’t want to be seen to be undermining a colleague.

It was meant to get rid of contention but it’s causing more
 
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