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Spurs and VAR

SirHarryHotspur

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
5,003
7,418
The Prem have a different interpretation of handball to UEFA and FIFA so in Europe that will count as handball, doesn't help when there's different laws for Seperate bodies, bit ridiculous if you ask me.

How are the laws in PL different from UEFA & FIFA when the laws for everyone are made by IFAB https://www.theifab.com/home

The mission of The IFAB is to serve the world of football as the independent guardian of the Laws of the Game. As the only body authorised to decide and agree changes to the Laws of the Game, we listen to the football community, with the goal to improve and develop the game for players, match officials and fans while protecting and strengthening the spirit and simplicity of football.

Transparency, accountability and inclusivity are the core values of The IFAB. We serve the entire global football community, voice its views and amend the Laws of the Game accordingly, in a democratic way. Our goal is to ensure the future health and stability of football while respecting the core values of the game.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
How are the laws in PL different from UEFA & FIFA when the laws for everyone are made by IFAB https://www.theifab.com/home

The mission of The IFAB is to serve the world of football as the independent guardian of the Laws of the Game. As the only body authorised to decide and agree changes to the Laws of the Game, we listen to the football community, with the goal to improve and develop the game for players, match officials and fans while protecting and strengthening the spirit and simplicity of football.

Transparency, accountability and inclusivity are the core values of The IFAB. We serve the entire global football community, voice its views and amend the Laws of the Game accordingly, in a democratic way. Our goal is to ensure the future health and stability of football while respecting the core values of the game.

Dunno mate, guess the PL play by their own rules.
 

WalkerboyUK

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2009
21,658
23,476
It’s only the “ultra” big clubs moaning about it cos they know Refs erred on their side the majority of the time. Anything that levels up the decisions at Old Trafford and Anfield is long overdue

Guardiola after the CL Quarter Final: It's a handball by Llorente to score his goal. The rule needs changing and VAR needs to be used with it.

Guardiola on Saturday: The handball rule and VAR are shit

Not his exact words, but gives the basics...
 

WalkerboyUK

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2009
21,658
23,476
Does anybody know why Lamela executing a flawless Rock Bottom on Rodri wasn't flagged? Tbf, I think Rodri might have initiated contact, but idk

VAR cannot flag this to the referee.
Remember, the A in the middle means Assistant.
VAR is not the ultimate decision maker, that still lies with the officials on the pitch.
With this challenge, Michael Oliver saw it and deemed that it was not enough of an offence to give a penalty. He would have told the VAR team that and that's basically where it ends.
If he hadn't seen it, then when the ball went out of play he could have gone to VAR and said something along the lines of "did I miss anything?"
This is where the VAR team would say they think there's potentially a foul by Lamela and that Oliver should check it on the monitors.
It would still be down to him to decide whether or not to give a penalty after reviewing the footage.

VAR is not being used to make decisions that over-rule that of the on-field officials. It's there to aid/advise, which is how it should be.
Of course, that still leaves things like the Lamela challenge open to interpretation. A bit like we see in the CL, referees across Europe see things differently and will give free-kicks for challenges our refs ignore.

With the handball rule, it's black and white - no grey areas.
Attacking team player handles and it results in a goal - handball, free-kick to defending team
Defending team player handles the ball, if the arm is outside natural position - handball & penalty

Yet again this will be problematic as we don't know what "un-natural position" really is.
This is one we haven't encountered yet this season in the PL though I think.

Overall I don't see any real downsides to VAR in the PL, other than for the fans in the stadium who have no idea at all what's going on. I was there for the City CL game when the penalty was awarded for Rose's handball. If you weren't at that end of the stadium you had no clue he may have handled the ball.
 

brendanb50

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2005
4,483
3,890
VAR cannot flag this to the referee.
Remember, the A in the middle means Assistant.
VAR is not the ultimate decision maker, that still lies with the officials on the pitch.
With this challenge, Michael Oliver saw it and deemed that it was not enough of an offence to give a penalty. He would have told the VAR team that and that's basically where it ends.
If he hadn't seen it, then when the ball went out of play he could have gone to VAR and said something along the lines of "did I miss anything?"
This is where the VAR team would say they think there's potentially a foul by Lamela and that Oliver should check it on the monitors.
It would still be down to him to decide whether or not to give a penalty after reviewing the footage.

VAR is not being used to make decisions that over-rule that of the on-field officials. It's there to aid/advise, which is how it should be.
Of course, that still leaves things like the Lamela challenge open to interpretation. A bit like we see in the CL, referees across Europe see things differently and will give free-kicks for challenges our refs ignore.

With the handball rule, it's black and white - no grey areas.
Attacking team player handles and it results in a goal - handball, free-kick to defending team
Defending team player handles the ball, if the arm is outside natural position - handball & penalty

Yet again this will be problematic as we don't know what "un-natural position" really is.
This is one we haven't encountered yet this season in the PL though I think.

Overall I don't see any real downsides to VAR in the PL, other than for the fans in the stadium who have no idea at all what's going on. I was there for the City CL game when the penalty was awarded for Rose's handball. If you weren't at that end of the stadium you had no clue he may have handled the ball.

Is the solution to the last point you've made potentially giving fans access to the ref mics? Like they do in rugby.

Seems to me that if some fans can hear the decision making, either on tv or via a ref-link then it will alleviate some (perhaps only a small amount) of the confusion.
 

TottenhamLegend

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2012
3,273
9,439
I hate it. Yes it went for us on Saturday but I hate it.

Very happy to see 30,000+ Wolves fans chanting f*ck VAR even after their goal was given last night. Hope to hear that sung up and down the country this season. By a huge margin, match going fans are against it, and understandably so. The moment of absolute unbridled joy when you score a goal is being replaced by apprehension that it will be disallowed. It's not football.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
It’s only the “ultra” big clubs moaning about it cos they know Refs erred on their side the majority of the time. Anything that levels up the decisions at Old Trafford and Anfield is long overdue

This is the main positive for VAR for me.

I still don’t really like it though. I’m sure everyone will get used to it, but I’m already finding myself when watching matches and a goal goes in after the initial second of reaction already thinking “oh, but is it going to stand”. And I don’t just mean during our games.

That just doesn’t feel right to me in what it a flowing game. Which is why I would prefer a system where the manager/captain has a set number of challenges for decisions they think are blatantly wrong. Like the Liverpool goal at West Ham which was 3 yards offside or a blatant penalty call etc. This would stop every goal being checked for several minutes with someone looking like they’re putting a ruler against the screen etc.

And I still don’t like the amendments to the handball rule.
 

Hercules

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2014
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69B40EA2-2184-43F8-91AC-BCF0ECFE46E3.jpeg
 

TottenhamLegend

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2012
3,273
9,439
Honestly when it doesn't go for us (as long as it is correct), I will begrudgingly accept it. It will be given for and against you. The point is it takes the controversy out of it.
It really hasn't, and won't, take the controversy out of it. We've seen this on many occasions already. Most decisions in football are subjective. Use technology all you want but there's still a human decision to be made. See Sterling offside vs West Ham. A supposedly objective decision, offside vs onside, that many people are still undecided on.

If anything it has the potential to make things even worse.

"They used technology and still got it wrong", that type of thing. In those cases the fans of a team will feel even more hard done by.
 

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
I don't like VAR, but the way human ref's ability has deteriorated over the last years, especially when it comes to pace, it was time to implement something that might reduce the influence of bad refereeing on the game. I'm also thinking about eg. the Tottenham - Mike Dean controversy, eg. the time Vertonghen was on his own half of the pitch and the ref called offside, and seeing VAR as lessor of two evils.
 
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Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,353
87,816
It really hasn't, and won't, take the controversy out of it. We've seen this on many occasions already. Most decisions in football are subjective. Use technology all you want but there's still a human decision to be made. See Sterling offside vs West Ham. A supposedly objective decision, offside vs onside, that many people are still undecided on.

If anything it has the potential to make things even worse.

"They used technology and still got it wrong", that type of thing. In those cases the fans of a team will feel even more hard done by.
That's it though... they're removing the ambiguity. It's now clear cut.
 

TottenhamLegend

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2012
3,273
9,439
That's it though... they're removing the ambiguity. It's now clear cut.
But... it's not!

You simply cannot remove ambiguity from football as it is heavily subjective. How many times do pundits and fans still disagree on a decision even after watching it 10 times from different angles in super slow motion?
 

nicdic

Official SC Padre
Admin
May 8, 2005
41,857
25,919
I hate it. Yes it went for us on Saturday but I hate it.

Very happy to see 30,000+ Wolves fans chanting f*ck VAR even after their goal was given last night. Hope to hear that sung up and down the country this season. By a huge margin, match going fans are against it, and understandably so. The moment of absolute unbridled joy when you score a goal is being replaced by apprehension that it will be disallowed. It's not football.
I know everyone says this, but is it actually happening? No one seems to be celebrating any less.
 

Jenko

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
5,290
4,157
I hate it. Yes it went for us on Saturday but I hate it.

Very happy to see 30,000+ Wolves fans chanting f*ck VAR even after their goal was given last night. Hope to hear that sung up and down the country this season. By a huge margin, match going fans are against it, and understandably so. The moment of absolute unbridled joy when you score a goal is being replaced by apprehension that it will be disallowed. It's not football.

No it's not football as we know it.

It's fair.
 

Jenko

Well-Known Member
Mar 18, 2004
5,290
4,157
Don't really understand how you can complain when you're on the end of a correct decision. If your players foot is offside (or eyes in Ozil's case), he's offside - no debate. I'd like to see it used (probably retrospectively) for diving. Hate the cheats.

But no one will bother diving for a peno anymore cos VAR will catch it, and they'll be booked immediately.
 

waresy

Well-Known Member
Mar 22, 2004
2,421
1,569

I dont like the red... ;)

The rule makers would have made the introduction of VAR easier on themselves without amending rules at the same time. The handball rule has exagerated the calls needed i think.

If it can have the same impact as the other sports then it will only be a good thing, it just has to be implemented well. The noises from the pundits who have been to the VAR room seem to be positive and it appears the premier league will be sensible with it.

We are a point up on what we would have had without it and by the book that is fair. Hopefully it will stop too many unjust pens being awarded (Salah we're looking at you) which can only be a good thing
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
Does anybody know why Lamela executing a flawless Rock Bottom on Rodri wasn't flagged? Tbf, I think Rodri might have initiated contact, but idk

Because Michael Oliver was not looking at the incident, he was looking at group of players around penalty spot, and VAR will not overrule on subjective calls at all in the Premier League. They would do anywhere else in world, but different protocol being used by PGMOL.
 
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dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
I know everyone says this, but is it actually happening? No one seems to be celebrating any less.

Don’t think I’ll celebrate any less immediately for a Spurs goal, but then there is a vacuum while we wait to see if it’s disallowed.

In years to come we’ll probably be used to it, but it just doesn’t feel right to me. The wait to see if that Neves goal stood last night was ridiculous.
 
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