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Source of our width problems?

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
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18,570
This is a question to those how know a bit more about AvB's tactics and formation with our squad in regards to where the true width comes from.

I am under the impression ( after the west ham and hull games ) that without proper full backs we lose our width on the wings. Ever since Rose's injury and Walker's small dip in form due to sickness it seems our wingers are running into defensive walls with no one out wide to push the width on either side. Townsend passing off to Walker or Siggurdson passing off to Rose was very effective when cutting into the middle wasn't an option due to opponents defensive line up. Now it seems like all we can do is cut in and that doesn't work when teams park the bus.

Is this the source of our width problems? Seems as with Vertonghen and to a further extent Naughton at LWB we have bad problems on that side of the pitch and I'm sure if Walker were out for a week or two the right would suffer in the same manner.

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
This was just something that popped in to my head last night but does anyone think that maybe our wide forwards are playing too deep? The point of AVB's tactics are to press hard and turn the ball over, move the ball on quickly and put so much weight on the oppo back line it overpowers them. Fast powerful football. I've been saying for ages that our problem is that we don't move the ball in the transition anywhere near fast enough but maybe our forwards are also playing in the wrong way. Should the wide forwards be playing essentially as two extra strikers in AVB's setup? At the moment I actually think they look more like wingers, picking the ball up deep and cutting in or taking on the full back. For AVB's tactics shouldn't they be instantly hitting the back line the second we turn the ball over. Between the striker and the two wide forwards at least two should be making runs on the back line whilst one drops off to take a defender out of position. The movement of 3 forwards should completely dismantle a back four, especially when we also have the movement of Holtby/Erikson to add in to that. The full backs pushing up would then be dealing with the build up play, essentially playing as wingers. I'd need to watch a few games again to tell but I think there may be something too it.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,838
18,570
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Red = Attacking
Blue = Defending

That is how I see it working in theory, but without pacey fullbacks capable of running the length of the pitch back and forth countless times every 90 mins to defend the counter as well as provide width for the attack, this can't work for us as a tactic. And we are effectively left with 2 center backs and Sandro covering when they join the attack which is not as effective defensively as a full back 4 and the beast covering from the front if the opposing team manages to burst into a counter attack.

We also need the ball movement to match this style of play and as you said its not happening at the moment. We need the width, ball movement and player movement off the ball to be perfectly in sync both in attacking and defending. T-Unit with quality passing and no fumbles or giving the ball away is the vision.
 

-Afri-Coy-

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2012
5,838
18,570
the answer is very simple. we miss Rose. a lot.

We could do with cover on both sides to be frank. But yes, Rose has turned into a gem we weren't quite prepared to part with on such short notice and after the performances he was putting in up until his injury :banghead:

But that is also a point worth mentioning, If this has been AvB's favored tactics with us and he knew how detrimental proper wing backs are to this style of play then why weren't cover players for these positions purchased while we had the chance? Lack of good players willing to spend 3/4 of the season on the bench? Or lack of players suited to this style of play? BAE is good enough as cover and a step above Naughton yet he's lacing his boots with Harry for a season? I don't have the answers but its definitely something to think about considering how well we are covered everywhere else on the pitch.
 

Geyzer Soze

Fearlessly the idiot faced the crowd
Aug 16, 2010
26,056
63,361
The importance of the Full Backs in AVB's apparent system, and the lack of cover in this area has me flaberghasted tbh. compltely flaberghasted.
 

mill

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2007
10,385
37,100
Avb seems far too rigid in his tactical approach imo, adjust your system to suit your players is surely just common sense?
 

Darrkespur

Resident scientist
Jun 8, 2003
2,510
1,998
I'd really like to see our wingers swap sides every now and then, I think it would give us a lot more unpredictability and a way to change things up if the inversion wasn't working. It's a big part of why Swansea play well.
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
Jan 23, 2006
26,894
45,042
I don't think its the whether or not there is an overlapping full back I think its the lack of dynamic passing that is to say nobody passes the ball then moves quickly into space for the return pass or , as we used to say, the old one two.
Sorry to say it but arsenal do this successfully.
 

Kranjcar on Ice

SC's Self-Proclaimed GIF King
Dec 19, 2009
102
209
You've pretty much nailed it on the head.

AVB's preferred formation calls for wing backs who can bomb up and down the pitch, running outside the inverted wingers to provide a wide outlet when said wingers cut into the center of the pitch. When those backs can't provide such runs, there is no wide outlet for our forwards and, as such, our attack becomes congested in the middle of the final third.

It is no coincidence that since Rose's injury we haven't looked as much of an attacking threat. Yes, we weren't scoring at will before his injury, but I'd chalk that more up to bad luck as we were creating tons of chances but just couldn't convert (hitting post, unbelievable saves by the opposing keeper, etc.)

Without Rose we're either playing Naughton or Verts at LB. Neither is a wingback. While Verts has a ton of skill, he doesn't have the pace to bomb up and down the wing. Naughton is not only playing off his favored foot, but he also is a more traditional outside back who can get up into attack, but does so more conservatively. Thus, even when Walker needs a rest, Naughton doesn't provide the attacking width AVB wants on his favored right side.

Quite simply, We need better cover for Rose and Walker from outside backs who actually play the way AVB wants. God knows why we let Benny out on loan when he is that type of back, but Naughton needs to be shipped off and replaced by someone who can deputize Walker properly.

AVB needs to change his tactics right now by playing traditional wingers when Either Rose or Walker are not playing, and such that we are no longer failing to create width in the attack. He started to show adaptation against Hull when he had Lennon and Townsend switch flanks in the second half...so that's a start.
 
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Sp3akerboxxx

Adoption: Nabil Bentaleb
Apr 4, 2006
5,180
7,621
Playing central players on the left. Sig, eriksen and holtby on the left offer you nothing in terms of width.
 

punky

Gone
Sep 23, 2008
7,485
5,403
I thought this was going to be about Dembele's comments about the width of our pitch.

Although our pitch is only 1m narrower than the standard, so not sure if anyone would really notice? Also Harry never had a problem playing with 2 wingers and overlaping fullbacks.
 
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