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Race for The Top 10

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
Ive been reading more and more about this... we all now int he spirit of things that Man City have been funded but technically the 'sponsors' and Man City are two separate entities no?

Also I do find it strange that there has been no independent judge and jury so to speak rather than being both that Uefa have been in this situation.

I do think Man City are guilty we all know it.

The 'sponsors' agreed a fee. When city realised they would fall foul of ffp they asked the owner for more money and doctored the 'sponsorship' deal to say it was worth more.
 

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
The 'sponsors' agreed a fee. When city realised they would fall foul of ffp they asked the owner for more money and doctored the 'sponsorship' deal to say it was worth more.

But doesnt that happen sometimes. So for example havent Nike/adidas subsidised or rather contributed to transfers before? I mean im pretty sure they have... I agree it is all dodgy but people find loopholes in every which way and I suspect Man City had a loop hole they knew of which they can 'abuse'
 

Chirpystheman

Well-Known Member
Jan 22, 2019
501
1,610
Didnt mancini get a payment from a third party though for work at city. Also its one thing addidas paying their client more money if they move to a club its totally different to what city have done. They doctored the amounts that a sponship deal is worth. Addidas saying to pogba we will pay you 5m more a year to go to united. Is different to addidas doping a club to sign their clients. Although i get its the same thing. But one is fraud especially as city were sponsored by a family member who was than alleged to have been paid back seperately to the club.
 

Bulletspur

The Reasonable Advocate
Match Thread Admin
Oct 17, 2006
10,690
25,246
But doesnt that happen sometimes. So for example havent Nike/adidas subsidised or rather contributed to transfers before? I mean im pretty sure they have... I agree it is all dodgy but people find loopholes in every which way and I suspect Man City had a loop hole they knew of which they can 'abuse'
The difference is the owners of Man City also are the owners of the Sponsors in question, conflict of interest et al. Technically they increased the Man Cities coffers out of their own pockets, which is wrong in its own right and contrary to FFP, but also understated the amount involved, which is akin to fraud imo. They are fucked!
 
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dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
Ive been reading more and more about this... we all now int he spirit of things that Man City have been funded but technically the 'sponsors' and Man City are two separate entities no?

Also I do find it strange that there has been no independent judge and jury so to speak rather than being both that Uefa have been in this situation.

I do think Man City are guilty we all know it.

Technically yes they are two separate legal entities, but similarly when two companies within the same “group” trade they must do so in what is known as an “arm’s length transaction”. i.e. something that is reasonable of two parties trading in typical market conditions etc.

I haven’t read much in depth about City’s case, but that sponsorship deal certainly doesn’t fit that description and they used it specifically to circumvent FFP rules so as far as that’s concerned I think they are bang to rights.

I’m sure City will argue otherwise and no doubt draw attention to other clubs around the world guilty of similar dodgy things (PSG obviously come to mind), but that is beside the point.
 
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Pochemon94

Well-Known Member
Aug 6, 2019
1,609
4,371
I know that this won't happen, but is there any rule that might force a demotion like Juventus when they got sent down for Calciopoli? Wouldn't it be lovely to see them sent down to league 2 and probably fold/turn into portsmouth
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
I know that this won't happen, but is there any rule that might force a demotion like Juventus when they got sent down for Calciopoli? Wouldn't it be lovely to see them sent down to league 2 and probably fold/turn into portsmouth

Weren’t Juventus charged with match fixing though?

Although we all what City have been up to I don’t think it is as serious as that.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
And even though there's a team below them, Arsenal have a higher chance than that team of being relegated. Wonderful.

(presumably it hasn't updated properly after the early match but whatever)
The site takes into account many things, including the teams they are playing next, exG, defence vs attack simulations on all teams etc, not just form. Personally I am very skeptical on there model but.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,883
71,188
If my memory is correct, when teams have taken cases to CAS, they have always served the the first part of the ban and usually had it reduced. I would expect something similar, they'll be banned from next seasons CL and have the 2nd year suspended, however I would then expect the PL to take action and give them a points deduction for next season, which could make CL qualification for 21/22 almost impossible, again I don't recall any points deduction given out half through a season?
A points deduction will take place when the investigation closes and its announced. If its not this summer, it will be the following summer. Have a feeling it’ll be this summer and they’ll just use that deduction as the 2nd year ban. I’d be floored if City qualify for CL the same year as a point deduction.
 

C0YS

Just another member
Jul 9, 2007
12,780
13,817
A points deduction will take place when the investigation closes and its announced. If its not this summer, it will be the following summer. Have a feeling it’ll be this summer and they’ll just use that deduction as the 2nd year ban. I’d be floored if City qualify for CL the same year as a point deduction.
How big do you think the deduction will be. If you look at other leagues I would be surprised if its more than 10 points. Depends though.
 

philll

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
9,110
31,701
Personally I am very skeptical on there model
Me too. I've created an application which calculates what is and isn't possible each gameweek (example). It also works out when a team can't finish in a particular position (which was obviously ridiculously early for Liverpool this season), 538 said that they were safe from relegation in one week but I could still get them down to 19th.

They either need to clarify what "<1%" and "-" mean (I'd assume that the former is for when there's still a chance, no matter how small, of that thing happening and the latter means it's mathematically impossible) or their model is flawed.

I have no idea about the >1 percentages but the fact that I could get Liverpool lower than they could doesn't fill me with confidence for the rest of their results.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,883
71,188
How big do you think the deduction will be. If you look at other leagues I would be surprised if its more than 10 points. Depends though.
I think it'll be 10 and they'll just start at -10 points but I wouldn't put it past the Prem to make an example out of them and go 15-20 deduction
 

Matecheck

Free pawn
Sep 25, 2016
307
967
It’s up to the powers that be over here to determine how our four places are given out. In theory can’t they decide that 3rd, 8th and 14th qualify along with the winners?

In theory, yes. Just like they decide that the league cup winner gets a Europa League spot. They could also give a CL spot to the fa Cup winner if they wanted to.
 

Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
I think it'll be 10 and they'll just start at -10 points but I wouldn't put it past the Prem to make an example out of them and go 15-20 deduction

I think they'll go for 15-20, there's more to it than just breaking FFP rules, there's fruad and a cover up, there's actual evidence of their wrong doings regardless of how it came to life and there's an arrogance about the way they have handled it.
 

spursfan77

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2005
46,680
104,956
How big do you think the deduction will be. If you look at other leagues I would be surprised if its more than 10 points. Depends though.

I’m sure I read somewhere that the maximum points deduction is 9 points. I don’t think they will push for relegation, because if they do then City will be open to the EFL FFP rules, which are different to the Premier League’s and even more tight I think.

It is different to Calciopoli, that was a whole load of teams trying to deceive the game.
 

Qualsonic

Good Grief
Nov 24, 2010
3,062
6,687
Me too. I've created an application which calculates what is and isn't possible each gameweek (example). It also works out when a team can't finish in a particular position (which was obviously ridiculously early for Liverpool this season), 538 said that they were safe from relegation in one week but I could still get them down to 19th.

They either need to clarify what "<1%" and "-" mean (I'd assume that the former is for when there's still a chance, no matter how small, of that thing happening and the latter means it's mathematically impossible) or their model is flawed.

I have no idea about the >1 percentages but the fact that I could get Liverpool lower than they could doesn't fill me with confidence for the rest of their results.
That's your work? Great job! I love those charts on Reddit!
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
The weirdest argument of all in this is that UEFA are judge and jury. That’s literally what happens in every other sport. A ruling body makes the laws and dishes out the punishment. In fact it’s what happens in every walk of life. An outside body only ever gets involved when someone appeals.
 

SugarRay

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2011
7,984
11,110
The weirdest argument of all in this is that UEFA are judge and jury. That’s literally what happens in every other sport. A ruling body makes the laws and dishes out the punishment. In fact it’s what happens in every walk of life. An outside body only ever gets involved when someone appeals.

It’s pure arrogance on their ( City’s ) part
 

Matecheck

Free pawn
Sep 25, 2016
307
967
Anybody else looking forward to a lovely sunday afternoon with the wife and kids out, a nice a cuppa and a brand new Bluemoon account? Heaven.....
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
The weirdest argument of all in this is that UEFA are judge and jury. That’s literally what happens in every other sport. A ruling body makes the laws and dishes out the punishment. In fact it’s what happens in every walk of life. An outside body only ever gets involved when someone appeals.
Great point.

UEFA work by consent. Individual clubs may disagree with certain rules or rulings but they submit themselves to their authority. Man City don’t have to do this but the whole reason they are upset is they want to be part of this great competition that UEFA organise. So they must accept the legitimacy of a body they willingly defer to and greatly benefit from.

Given all this, they cannot make arguments about the constitutional unfairness of the body. All football bodies create laws with the input of its members and for their benefit. Who the fuck else would Man City have impose sanctions? Insanity. Will the FA no longer have the power to impose bans?

If Man City believe in such fundamental flaws then they should withdraw entirely from all football bodies. Have fun playing Sunday league.

Edit: Even Sunday leagues have rules that clubs willingly submit themselves to. Perhaps they could play friendlies?
 
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