Premier League 2016/17

EllenAlex

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1 point from top, unbeaten with a Goals conceded of 4 and none from open play is a slightly more optimistic way of looking at things.
West Brom.? Still optimistic about our chances, just not sure the open play thin is still going.
 

DIEHARD

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I don't disagree our finishing has been poor, certainly in the last two games, but we are still creating chances, certainly v WBA, but not so much v Bournemouth. If the finishing improves, and I believe it will with Kane's return, we will score bucket loads
I do think Kane will come back revitalised... and his injury was a blessing in my view although at the time he had started scoring.
 

heelspurs

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Mourinho has lost the fucking plot, continuing with this Pogba in a CM2, Fellani bollocks is ridiculous.
I wonder if it's because he realizes that he will not be afforded the time and space (which he won't) at the #10 but must still play him? Point being Pogba has looked shit, all-night bender capped with a curry shit. Everyone has seen his highlights in the slow Serie A. But they have not translated except in games whre he has been afforded space. He seems a peacocking, flat-track bully.

You keep banging on about him coming good in a CM3 (an opinion I take as informed) but from the small PL sample size thus far he looks shit in that position too. At liverpool he played advanced in a CM3 as well as that zuhansk game. Maybe it is a "Lamela-type situation" and it will take a couple years. But in the same respect it will take some significant effort on his part to simplify his game. Those 6'4" legs are not the fastest or quickest. And his touch (half-turn) is not 'silky' and looks anxious, as Lamela's and Son's did, as if they were anticipating a hit.

Transfer fee aside as we all knew that was outrageous at the time but even if we got him for sissoko money and he put in the performances that he has I would be on his shit. At least Sissoko put is his best performance (and it was an objectively good performance) in our biggest game. Same cannot be said of Pogba. And of course I am not comparing the two just utilizing the example of our 'record' signings.
 

EllenAlex

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It was from a corner wasn't it? Rebound to Chadli and he booted it home? I thought that was what happened. I may have forgotten thought :p
You have it right, but I'm interested in your view of when a set play is considered over and therefore open play?

I see the end as when the passage of play is no longer reheresed.
 

dagraham

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I still don't think we create enough clear cut chances (West Brom 1st half aside).

What we do is create many, many opportunities in and around the final third that don't actually end up in clear cut chances because our final ball isn't good enough or we make the wrong choice or choose to slow the play down and let the opposition regroup.

I think Kane coming back is more than just having a quality finisher. He often makes things happen himself with his shooting from range and ability to stretch the back four.

I'm still not sure the balance is right in the players behind the number 9.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I wonder if it's because he realizes that he will not be afforded the time and space (which he won't) at the #10 but must still play him? Point being Pogba has looked shit, all-night bender capped with a curry shit. Everyone has seen his highlights in the slow Serie A. But they have not translated except in games whre he has been afforded space. He seems a peacocking, flat-track bully.

You keep banging on about him coming good in a CM3 (an opinion I take as informed) but from the small PL sample size thus far he looks shit in that position too. At liverpool he played advanced in a CM3 as well as that zuhansk game. Maybe it is a "Lamela-type situation" and it will take a couple years. But in the same respect it will take some significant effort on his part to simplify his game. Those 6'4" legs are not the fastest or quickest. And his touch (half-turn) is not 'silky' and looks anxious, as Lamela's and Son's did, as if they were anticipating a hit.

Transfer fee aside as we all knew that was outrageous at the time but even if we got him for sissoko money and he put in the performances that he has I would be on his shit. At least Sissoko put is his best performance (and it was an objectively good performance) in our biggest game. Same cannot be said of Pogba. And of course I am not comparing the two just utilizing the example of our 'record' signings.

It's no good just putting him in "any" CM3 or "any" version of CM3, I know this is an obvious thing to say but Mourinho's just making an utter pigs ear of everything so far, so even when (and it's only been what once, maybe twice?) Pogba has played in a CM3 it's not been the right balance of team around him, unlike at Juve, where Conte and then Allegri had the balance of the side right most of the time. There's still (and maybe always will be) an element of frustration with a player like Pogba (like a better more version of Alli say) he'll sometimes over complicate when simple will do, but I actually think if you get him in the right set up he's a hell of a player. He's not a 10 either, in the same way Alli isn't. He doesn't want to be squeezed into the advanced, over crowded areas, he wants to arrive from deeper positions, can move forward with the ball (much better moving with the ball than Alli) and drive a team forwards and can make incisive passes and score goals. But you need to get hat balance right.

I just do not understand how you have players like Schneiderlin, Herrera and Carrick and you end up playing fucking Fellani in a CM2? Didn't really understand the concept of bringing in an ageing Ibrahimavic either. No full backs, Lingard, etctetc...bringing in the cracking Mikhitarian and leaving him on the bench, they are just a fucking mess right now.
 

nightgoat

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Of course Luiz's studs up challenge on Fellaini is getting a load of attention, whereas Arter's leg-breaker on Wanyama yesterday has been completely airbrushed from history...
 

jonathanhotspur

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It's no good just putting him in "any" CM3 or "any" version of CM3, I know this is an obvious thing to say but Mourinho's just making an utter pigs ear of everything so far, so even when (and it's only been what once, maybe twice?) Pogba has played in a CM3 it's not been the right balance of team around him, unlike at Juve, where Conte and then Allegri had the balance of the side right most of the time. There's still (and maybe always will be) an element of frustration with a player like Pogba (like a better more version of Alli say) he'll sometimes over complicate when simple will do, but I actually think if you get him in the right set up he's a hell of a player. He's not a 10 either, in the same way Alli isn't. He doesn't want to be squeezed into the advanced, over crowded areas, he wants to arrive from deeper positions, can move forward with the ball (much better moving with the ball than Alli) and drive a team forwards and can make incisive passes and score goals. But you need to get hat balance right.

I just do not understand how you have players like Schneiderlin, Herrera and Carrick and you end up playing fucking Fellani in a CM2? Didn't really understand the concept of bringing in an ageing Ibrahimavic either. No full backs, Lingard, etctetc...bringing in the cracking Mikhitarian and leaving him on the bench, they are just a fucking mess right now.
I have seen very little of Pogba. My question is this-is Dele Alli every bit as talented as him?
 

nightgoat

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You have it right, but I'm interested in your view of when a set play is considered over and therefore open play?

I see the end as when the passage of play is no longer reheresed.
Surely once it's cleared. We never cleared the corner.
 

EllenAlex

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Surely once it's cleared. We never cleared the corner.
In mymind we made a poor attempt at clearing, so much so the ball didn't leave the box.

How many yards equate to cleared, in your view?

Accidental but interesting side topic(y)
 

TaoistMonkey

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It's amazing that when we don't get 3 points from a relatively easy game every one around us loses too. Balls
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
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It's no good just putting him in "any" CM3 or "any" version of CM3, I know this is an obvious thing to say but Mourinho's just making an utter pigs ear of everything so far, so even when (and it's only been what once, maybe twice?) Pogba has played in a CM3 it's not been the right balance of team around him, unlike at Juve, where Conte and then Allegri had the balance of the side right most of the time. There's still (and maybe always will be) an element of frustration with a player like Pogba (like a better more version of Alli say) he'll sometimes over complicate when simple will do, but I actually think if you get him in the right set up he's a hell of a player. He's not a 10 either, in the same way Alli isn't. He doesn't want to be squeezed into the advanced, over crowded areas, he wants to arrive from deeper positions, can move forward with the ball (much better moving with the ball than Alli) and drive a team forwards and can make incisive passes and score goals. But you need to get hat balance right.

I just do not understand how you have players like Schneiderlin, Herrera and Carrick and you end up playing fucking Fellani in a CM2? Didn't really understand the concept of bringing in an ageing Ibrahimavic either. No full backs, Lingard, etctetc...bringing in the cracking Mikhitarian and leaving him on the bench, they are just a fucking mess right now.
Now I better understand your point about him and it makes even more sense. I absolutely agree that Pogba carries the ball with intent and delivers it much better than Dele. And yes his best moments have been doing that. But in that respect, considering his lack of defensive contribution (compared to Dele, at least in pressing up high), that makes him more of a 'luxury' player and not a player to spend 90M on and build your team around.

United would have been better off letting Real have a free go at Pogba and taking a portion of the money and trying to entice them to part with Modric (most complete MF in Europe for me). Would have been stupid for Real as Pogba will never be the player of that level IMHO. But that is a reflection of how highly I rate little Luka.

Mkhitaryan would fill a very nice hole in our team. If he (or someone with similar skills) was our AM I figure we would be favorites.

I have seen very little of Pogba. My question is this-is Dele Alli every bit as talented as him?
You did not ask me but I offer my insight nonetheless. Pogba is more technically accomplished than Dele. Neither has good defensive awareness. Dele has done well in our pro-active defensive setup (press) but has deficiencies elsewhere. Pogba has similar deficiencies but 1v1 is a decent defender and good tackler. If Pogba were in our setup he would be doing much better, given the same remit that Dele has, than he has performed at ManU. Additionally, given his better athleticism and technical ability I believe he would perform at a level similar but probably better than Dele has for us. However, I believe Dele wins on mentality...bigly (to quote our potential POTUS).
 
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Bus-Conductor

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I have seen very little of Pogba. My question is this-is Dele Alli every bit as talented as him?
No. Certainly not at the moment, but they are slightly different. Pogba's better with the ball at his feet, passing and at powering forwards with it, Alli can't really move past people or dribble (apart from when the odd nutmeg comes off) but Alli's more likely to get himself into the box, probably more likely to get on the end of something than Pogba. But they both need to be played in very similar systems. CM3's with a positionally disciplined busy **** for insurance to cover their surges forward, with or without the ball, and another CM to provide the metronomic passing stuff, because Alli's pretty poor at that side of the game too, gives the ball away more than most in our team despite not seeing loads of it.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Now I better understand your point about him and it makes even more sense. I absolutely agree that Pogba carries the ball with intent and delivers it much better than Dele. And yes his best moments have been doing that. But in that respect, considering his lack of defensive contribution (compared to Dele, at least in pressing up high), that makes him more of a 'luxury' player and not a player to spend 90M on and build your team around.

United would have been better off letting Real have a free go at Pogba and taking a portion of the money and trying to entice them to part with Modric (most complete MF in Europe for me). Would have been stupid for Real as Pogba will never be the player of that level IMHO. But that is a reflection of how highly I rate little Luka.

Mkhitaryan would fill a very nice hole in our team. If he (or someone with similar skills) was our AM I figure we would be favorites.


You did not ask me but I offer my insight nonetheless. Pogba is more technically accomplished than Dele. Neither has good defensive awareness. Dele has done well in our pro-active defensive setup (press) but has deficiencies elsewhere. Pogba has similar deficiencies but 1v1 is a decent defender and good tackler. If Pogba were in our setup he would be doing much better, given the same remit that Dele has, than he has performed at ManU. Additionally, given his better athleticism and technical ability I believe he would perform at a level similar but probably better than Dele has for us. However, I believe Dele wins on mentality...bigly (to quote our potential POTUS).

Good answer, didn't read this before posting but I actually nearly wrote that I think Pogba would excel in our current system under Poch.

If you think that both Bentaleb and Pogba have been predominantly used as CM2's in 4231's this season, these stats make pretty scary reading:

Screen Shot 2016-10-23 at 23.16.00.png

Screen Shot 2016-10-23 at 23.16.40.png
 
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nightgoat

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In mymind we made a poor attempt at clearing, so much so the ball didn't leave the box.

How many yards equate to cleared, in your view?

Accidental but interesting side topic(y)
I don't think we even got any touch on the ball apart from Hugo saving the initial shot.

I dunno, it varies I guess. A clearing header that goes straight to an attacker just outside the area isn't really clearing it. Clearing it towards the touchline and getting a foot on the ball probably is.
 

EllenAlex

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I don't think we even got any touch on the ball apart from Hugo saving the initial shot.

I dunno, it varies I guess. A clearing header that goes straight to an attacker just outside the area isn't really clearing it. Clearing it towards the touchline and getting a foot on the ball probably is.
When a player scores from a saved shot, the initial shooter does not claim the assist. This is what makes the 'clearing of the ball' a grey area, for me.

Another weird one is the woodwork not being 'on target' despite the frame being a part of the goal.
 

nightgoat

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When a player scores from a saved shot, the initial shooter does not claim the assist. This is what makes the 'clearing of the ball' a grey area, for me.

Another weird one is the woodwork not being 'on target' despite the frame being a part of the goal.
I don't think that goal can be considered open play though.
 

Pellshek

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I should really see a shrink about the depths of my loathing for David Luiz. It's out of proportion and probably not at all healthy.
 
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