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Pochettino says he needs time to rebuild transitional Tottenham

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
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38,294
Backing him in the transfer market is not the solution. Buy as many players as you want but we will still be where we are unless Poch improves on his team selection, tactics and game management.
That is the problem. Will it lead to him naming unchanged sides instead of constant tinkering or making earlier (and therefore decisive) substitutions?
 

Jonesey

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2004
695
391
I’m actually a huge Poch fan myself - of what he’s done for the club - but can see he is done at Spurs and am gutted that he’s become a shadow of his former self.

Sure, he’s been a victim of events, injuries, club ineptitude and player power over the past 4 months but he’s also got to shoulder a huge part in where the team is today.

I’m gutted that, for the first time, I don’t believe he should be given more time by Levy because we could seriously be relegated if he is. But maybe he should also go for his own sake.

There’s been a look about him since the summer tour, before the summer transfer window closed, and ever since:

“I’ve been shafted”.

When he signed his new deal in May it MUST have been because Levy promised him he was being listened to and that he would get what he wanted in the summer - a player succession plan via transfers. He isn’t a money chaser. He wants to be a success.

And yet the club (not him remember, he made it clear he wasn’t in charge of signings) signed three players, two expensive, talented young players one who was never going to start, but might make the club a profit in the future and who went back to Leeds on loan, and then also Lo Celso on loan.

None of them were direct replacements for the players EVERYONE knew wanted to leave - except maybe Lo Celso for Eriksen and Sess for Rose but even then they’re not quite the same sort of players. N’Dombele was supposed to be our Dembele replacement but, again, different sort of player.

And also we didn’t get rid of the players who clearly didn’t want to be there anymore - and who were bound to upset the “balance” in the squad Poch talks about.

In that respect he was shafted. Levy did not deliver what the squad really needed and the balance in the team Poch talks about is now way off.

That said, he let it happen. By allowing himself to not be in charge of transfers when he signed his new deal. At a time when his currency was as high as it possibly could have been (except if he’d won us the Champions League but he opted to play an unfit Kane over Moura ... I’ll leave that one there ...) any coach with balls - and a brain - would have insisted on that at that point, surely?

Back to the team. As above, it’s not entirely his fault that we are 6pts off the relegation zone, with the lowest points tally since 2007/08 (when Martin Jol was sacked after losing the dressing room) - but the team performances this season are proving he’s not the strong, hard, tactically adept manager we thought he was.

These current times are when good coaches earn their wages, by being brave (Poch’s words) and by galvanising the players who DO want to be there.

Can you imagine what Alex Ferguson (who Poch admires and has had lunch, dinner, red wine and phonecalls with) would have done in this situation?

He would’ve kicked Eriksen, Aurier, Toby, Jan, Rose and anyone else who didn’t want to be at the club into the reserves and left them there.

He would have galvanised the players who still wanted to fight for the badge and he would have had his coaching team drag the youth up to scratch and develop a CONSISTENT team of players who would fight week-in, week-out for each other.

In fact that’s exactly what he did and he forged, FORGED, a team of out-and-out winners. You know what that is? A winning mentality.

Poch has proved so far this season - for whatever reasons - that he doesn’t have that in him.

He’s let the bad apples rot the rest of the team, he doesn’t know how to forge a consistent core group of players, he constantly drops players after they have a great game, destroying any morale a win might bring the team.

And he’s losing the other players as a result. You can see it in Kane’s body language and performances alone and poor Lucas, what does he have to do to get a consistent run in the team?

All this points to one thing; weak squad and player-management.

He also constantly tries to paper over the many, many cracks by saying we performed well in post-match interviews when we were so very clearly atrocious, infuriating the fans.

It’s a fallacy that Poch brings youth players on. He doesn’t. Sherwood brought Kane in and Winks is the only other one who’s come through and, sorry, but he is not a Top-4 team midfielder and Alli was already on fire from day 1, good for two seasons and has gone backwards since. At times like this, when the club aren’t about to drop the £200-300mil it needs to in order to fix the team’s issues, we need a manager who’s able to. Who that is I have no idea - but it ain’t him. Frank Lampard’s doing it at Chelsea, who’s our ‘Frank’?

Poch is proving he just isn’t the personnel-manager many of us thought he was. To turn it around - if it’s not already too late - he needs to grow some kahunas (as he likes to say), by dumping the bad apples completely (no matter what Levy wants to keep em in the shop window) and be brave by investing - properly investing - in youth and those who want to be there. The team vs Sheffield United was the closest we’ve seen to this but you could tell they weren’t used to playing with each other yet.

Or maybe he needs to resign.

Either will do two things; 1) earn him back some respect and, 2) hopefully, preserve the incredible contribution he has made to the club in the past 5 years.

Hopefully. Because at the moment he is losing the fans as well as the dressing room.

Sorry, rant over.
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
I’m actually a huge Poch fan myself - of what he’s done for the club - but can see he is done at Spurs and am gutted that he’s become a shadow of his former self.

Sure, he’s been a victim of events, injuries, club ineptitude and player power over the past 4 months but he’s also got to shoulder a huge part in where the team is today.

I’m gutted that, for the first time, I don’t believe he should be given more time by Levy because we could seriously be relegated if he is. But maybe he should also go for his own sake.

There’s been a look about him since the summer tour, before the summer transfer window closed, and ever since:

“I’ve been shafted”.

When he signed his new deal in May it MUST have been because Levy promised him he was being listened to and that he would get what he wanted in the summer - a player succession plan via transfers. He isn’t a money chaser. He wants to be a success.

And yet the club (not him remember, he made it clear he wasn’t in charge of signings) signed three players, two expensive, talented young players one who was never going to start, but might make the club a profit in the future and who went back to Leeds on loan, and then also Lo Celso on loan.

None of them were direct replacements for the players EVERYONE knew wanted to leave - except maybe Lo Celso for Eriksen and Sess for Rose but even then they’re not quite the same sort of players. N’Dombele was supposed to be our Dembele replacement but, again, different sort of player.

And also we didn’t get rid of the players who clearly didn’t want to be there anymore - and who were bound to upset the “balance” in the squad Poch talks about.

In that respect he was shafted. Levy did not deliver what the squad really needed and the balance in the team Poch talks about is now way off.

That said, he let it happen. By allowing himself to not be in charge of transfers when he signed his new deal. At a time when his currency was as high as it possibly could have been (except if he’d won us the Champions League but he opted to play an unfit Kane over Moura ... I’ll leave that one there ...) any coach with balls - and a brain - would have insisted on that at that point, surely?

Back to the team. As above, it’s not entirely his fault that we are 6pts off the relegation zone, with the lowest points tally since 2007/08 (when Martin Jol was sacked after losing the dressing room) - but the team performances this season are proving he’s not the strong, hard, tactically adept manager we thought he was.

These current times are when good coaches earn their wages, by being brave (Poch’s words) and by galvanising the players who DO want to be there.

Can you imagine what Alex Ferguson (who Poch admires and has had lunch, dinner, red wine and phonecalls with) would have done in this situation?

He would’ve kicked Eriksen, Aurier, Toby, Jan, Rose and anyone else who didn’t want to be at the club into the reserves and left them there.

He would have galvanised the players who still wanted to fight for the badge and he would have had his coaching team drag the youth up to scratch and develop a CONSISTENT team of players who would fight week-in, week-out for each other.

In fact that’s exactly what he did and he forged, FORGED, a team of out-and-out winners. You know what that is? A winning mentality.

Poch has proved so far this season - for whatever reasons - that he doesn’t have that in him.

He’s let the bad apples rot the rest of the team, he doesn’t know how to forge a consistent core group of players, he constantly drops players after they have a great game, destroying any morale a win might bring the team.

And he’s losing the other players as a result. You can see it in Kane’s body language and performances alone and poor Lucas, what does he have to do to get a consistent run in the team?

All this points to one thing; weak squad and player-management.

He also constantly tries to paper over the many, many cracks by saying we performed well in post-match interviews when we were so very clearly atrocious, infuriating the fans.

It’s a fallacy that Poch brings youth players on. He doesn’t. Sherwood brought Kane in and Winks is the only other one who’s come through and, sorry, but he is not a Top-4 team midfielder and Alli was already on fire from day 1, good for two seasons and has gone backwards since. At times like this, when the club aren’t about to drop the £200-300mil it needs to in order to fix the team’s issues, we need a manager who’s able to. Who that is I have no idea - but it ain’t him. Frank Lampard’s doing it at Chelsea, who’s our ‘Frank’?

Poch is proving he just isn’t the personnel-manager many of us thought he was. To turn it around - if it’s not already too late - he needs to grow some kahunas (as he likes to say), by dumping the bad apples completely (no matter what Levy wants to keep em in the shop window) and be brave by investing - properly investing - in youth and those who want to be there. The team vs Sheffield United was the closest we’ve seen to this but you could tell they weren’t used to playing with each other yet.

Or maybe he needs to resign.

Either will do two things; 1) earn him back some respect and, 2) hopefully, preserve the incredible contribution he has made to the club in the past 5 years.

Hopefully. Because at the moment he is losing the fans as well as the dressing room.

Sorry, rant over.


Is it remotely possible he was good to a point and doesnt know how to push us forward?

and secondly can he deal with Levy with belief and assertiveness?
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Trippier made some obtuse comment when he left indicated something wasn't right at Tottenham,it would be good to know what he meant

Based on the evidence, it seems like Poch decides he wants rid of players but won't tell them straight himself (direct from Tripps quote)

"I spoke to the manager about his plans and I didn't get a 'yes' and I didn't get a 'no' - so you get the impression."

He does it in the media - "we need a rebuilt" and saying the team isn't good enough one minute, then "I am very happy with my players" the next. Seems like he doesn't have it in him to take on the full responsibility of being a manager, including risking being unpopular.
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
Based on the evidence, it seems like Poch decides he wants rid of players but won't tell them straight himself (direct from Tripps quote)

"I spoke to the manager about his plans and I didn't get a 'yes' and I didn't get a 'no' - so you get the impression."

He does it in the media - "we need a rebuilt" and saying the team isn't good enough one minute, then "I am very happy with my players" the next. Seems like he doesn't have it in him to take on the full responsibility of being a manager, including risking being unpopular.

I dont think he is really confident. He has bravado in some ways but I dont think he is that confident of a creative manager.
I think he has a plan that he religiously believes in and he needs the players to follow the little white ball to the umph degree. If they dont he cuts them.
Sissoko he doesnt cut because Sissoko does whatever Poch says.
Creative players need a certain amount of freedom.They get it when we counter but moving the ball up the field generally they need to follow Poch. (Hence the stupid back and forth passing by the defence...do they look like they are using their instincts?)
I think this is the problem.
When things were working everyone is happy.When it's not....
Anyway fast forward....
Liverpool made us look silly...Poch decides we have to get on the front foot....buys four quasi attackers but can he allow himself to figure out how we evolve to a more balanced game...
The tension within the players tells the real story not their mouths not Pochs mouth.
 

SPURSLIFE

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2011
1,578
2,132
So most games then. It's frightening to see how bang average he's been for a good 12 months now if not more.
No competition will do that to you.
He's not been scoring the goals of the past because the team he's playing with are not playing to his strengths however his passing has at times been exceptional and his assists have contributed to the few goals we are scoring. Don't blame Kane for the teams AND Poch's failure to change things.
Don't worry he will probably be off in the summer with Son the only other class player in the side.
 

SPURSLIFE

Well-Known Member
Jul 21, 2011
1,578
2,132
You go through our squad, there are far too many players that don't want to be her (for want ever reason) money being the obvious others that are past their sell by date some just not good enough.

I get it, lots want Poch out, it's understandable and one would be silly to bury one's head in the sand , i just think it'll be a mistake not giving him the opportunity to build another team.

Time will tell.
But he built this team and they can't win anything so what makes you think he can build another team that will do any better. He's had money for players maybe not as much as some of us would like but certainly more than clubs like Leicester for instance but they have bought wisely and have fitted in the missing pieces to produce a team that is challenging for the title for a second time. I like many on here love the guy but our team is falling apart and our dreams we had evaporating. It's time for him to go. Who will take his place I don't know but it's time for change.
 

Jonesey

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2004
695
391
Is it remotely possible he was good to a point and doesnt know how to push us forward?

and secondly can he deal with Levy with belief and assertiveness?
I’d suggest that the fact he is floundering in managing an unsettled, out of balance squad of players - the first time it happens - would suggest that he’s good when all are happy but not when the players actually need actually managing, not just coaching.

I’m convinced that if we’d got rid of the wantaway players in the summer and Levy has replaced them with upgrades we would still be pitching for top-4, perhaps even the title again.

But that still wouldn’t make him a great a manager. A great manager should be able to kick a team into shape when things aren’t going well too - but of course they need the club’s backing in order to do that.

You can’t help but wonder what a new manager could do with that squad we have. It’s not great, but it’s not bad either.

But if Poch does go whoever comes in better be prepared for a challenge because the players who are left will need some serious motivation.
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
I’d suggest that the fact he is floundering in managing an unsettled, out of balance squad of players - the first time it happens - would suggest that he’s good when all are happy but not when the players actually need actually managing, not just coaching.

I’m convinced that if we’d got rid of the wantaway players in the summer and Levy has replaced them with upgrades we would still be pitching for top-4, perhaps even the title again.

But that still wouldn’t make him a great a manager. A great manager should be able to kick a team into shape when things aren’t going well too - but of course they need the club’s backing in order to do that.

You can’t help but wonder what a new manager could do with that squad we have. It’s not great, but it’s not bad either.

But if Poch does go whoever comes in better be prepared for a challenge because the players who are left will need some serious motivation.


I think there is another point and that relates to the second part of my post. Its how Poch deals with Levy. If Poch was really confident that he has the goods,I would have thought he would have gone eye to eye with Levy in what he needs to be successful. But from that I can see I think Poch had a plan,a really good one and to develop it he seems to be doing more of a Trial and Error approach. If he has as much influence in the manager as we think (what the players say is an indicator) then he will have them believing 100% in what he is doing.But really from the way you see them play,do you think they believe as much as they did? It hasn't been one game or two its been a steady decline.
Yes we got to the final of the CL but really I really think we were quite lucky.The quality for the most part wasn't there. Our footie in the league too generally and this year it all came to roost.
Poch is trying we can see that, but does he have the goods? I think he is limited but on the other hand who could we get. Does Levy have the guts to sign a top manager and listen to what we need and go out and get those other players? I think he thinks he has got someone in Poch who gives him what he needs,can work on average players etc,isnt perfect,doesnt demand to compete with the best and the sad thing is the fans go home either dreaming fantasies or thinking its the best we can hope for at this point
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
But he built this team and they can't win anything so what makes you think he can build another team that will do any better. He's had money for players maybe not as much as some of us would like but certainly more than clubs like Leicester for instance but they have bought wisely and have fitted in the missing pieces to produce a team that is challenging for the title for a second time. I like many on here love the guy but our team is falling apart and our dreams we had evaporating. It's time for him to go. Who will take his place I don't know but it's time for change.
I’m not sure that’s right we’ve spent Leicester ? In the time Leicester won the league their line up has completely changed Vardy Schmicheal aside they’ve actually been very active re building another squad . In that time yes you can through ‘he hasn’t won anything line’ it’s the stick to beat him with the flip side since Leicester won the league we’ve finished top 4 consistently played CL football consistently, got to the CL final . Imo his proved he can develop players and get us competing we haven’t really seen him backed in the transfer market nor have we seen him build multiple teams like offer long serving managers .
 

Jonesey

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2004
695
391
I think there is another point and that relates to the second part of my post. Its how Poch deals with Levy. If Poch was really confident that he has the goods,I would have thought he would have gone eye to eye with Levy in what he needs to be successful. But from that I can see I think Poch had a plan,a really good one and to develop it he seems to be doing more of a Trial and Error approach. If he has as much influence in the manager as we think (what the players say is an indicator) then he will have them believing 100% in what he is doing.But really from the way you see them play,do you think they believe as much as they did? It hasn't been one game or two its been a steady decline.
Yes we got to the final of the CL but really I really think we were quite lucky.The quality for the most part wasn't there. Our footie in the league too generally and this year it all came to roost.
Poch is trying we can see that, but does he have the goods? I think he is limited but on the other hand who could we get. Does Levy have the guts to sign a top manager and listen to what we need and go out and get those other players? I think he thinks he has got someone in Poch who gives him what he needs,can work on average players etc,isnt perfect,doesnt demand to compete with the best and the sad thing is the fans go home either dreaming fantasies or thinking its the best we can hope for at this point
From my original post we seem to be saying very similar things.
The big problem is that the team over achieved for almost 4 years. Was he instrumental in that, undeniably, but we still didn’t win anything. And his team selection in the CL final - and in many games this year - have been a major telling point for me that maybe he just isn’t that good after all - especially when the going gets tough.
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
From my original post we seem to be saying very similar things.
The big problem is that the team over achieved for almost 4 years. Was he instrumental in that, undeniably, but we still didn’t win anything. And his team selection in the CL final - and in many games this year - have been a major telling point for me that maybe he just isn’t that good after all - especially when the going gets tough.

Yes the result we agree on,I just also threw in some questions and maybe some answers about his dealings with Levy and his confidence and also the players belief in him.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
I’d suggest that the fact he is floundering in managing an unsettled, out of balance squad of players - the first time it happens - would suggest that he’s good when all are happy but not when the players actually need actually managing, not just coaching.

I’m convinced that if we’d got rid of the wantaway players in the summer and Levy has replaced them with upgrades we would still be pitching for top-4, perhaps even the title again.

But that still wouldn’t make him a great a manager. A great manager should be able to kick a team into shape when things aren’t going well too - but of course they need the club’s backing in order to do that.

You can’t help but wonder what a new manager could do with that squad we have. It’s not great, but it’s not bad either.

But if Poch does go whoever comes in better be prepared for a challenge because the players who are left will need some serious motivation.
Imo Pochettino is up there with the best managers people have underestimated the work his done at our club on a very limited NET spend compared to the established. We have never been consistent trophy winner or CL regulars in our history , the famous year ending in 1 was what we clinched to, now your hearing supporters having a pop at the lack of trophies . When Pochettino came in we were on the back foot he put a steal and a winning mentality not seen at our club since we last won the league before I was even born. This isn’t an Arsen Wenger test paper where he over stayed after years of decline. Levy has pushed second third and fourth choice options Moura Aurier Jansen Nkadou Nije others like Trippier Davies etc weren’t Pochettino buys imo Clarke wasn’t a Pochettino buy. Levy has been fully focused on the stadium build and took his eye off the contracts and squad development Pochettino had been crying about this for the last two years now the chicken has come home to roost. Poch of course isn’t blameless however now Levy has to fully back him otherwise the big stadium build project becomes another Arsenal ( tho they win trophies at a better rate then we do)
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
Imo Pochettino is up there with the best managers people have underestimated the work his done at our club on a very limited NET spend compared to the established. We have never been consistent trophy winner or CL regulars in our history , the famous year ending in 1 was what we clinched to, now your hearing supporters having a pop at the lack of trophies . When Pochettino came in we were on the back foot he put a steal and a winning mentality not seen at our club since we last won the league before I was even born. This isn’t an Arsen Wenger test paper where he over stayed after years of decline. Levy has pushed second third and fourth choice options Moura Aurier Jansen Nkadou Nije others like Trippier Davies etc weren’t Pochettino buys imo Clarke wasn’t a Pochettino buy. Levy has been fully focused on the stadium build and took his eye off the contracts and squad development Pochettino had been crying about this for the last two years now the chicken has come home to roost. Poch of course isn’t blameless however now Levy has to fully back him otherwise the big stadium build project becomes another Arsenal ( tho they win trophies at a better rate then we do)

How much over performing have we done this season,Double O ?
Also how about last season.Do you think we played well?
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
How much over performing have we done this season,Double O ?
Also how about last season.Do you think we played well?

Let this register last season Tottenham got to a CL final. We also finished 4. We were playing at Wembley. We had issues with our stadium opening dates. Every club has injuries we were decimated, Son was mainly with South Korea. Pochettino imo can lift his head up high he did well imo. Levy threw a Dybala heymaker but we bought players late and unfit / injured and loaned out , we hadn’t sorted the want always players and expected Pochettino to perform more miracles.

With or without Pochettino, Levy needs to open the cheque book
 

Ronwol196061

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
3,925
3,646
Let this register last season Tottenham got to a CL final. We also finished 4. We were playing at Wembley. We had issues with our stadium opening dates. Every club has injuries we were decimated, Son was mainly with South Korea. Pochettino imo can lift his head up high he did well imo. Levy threw a Dybala heymaker but we bought players late and unfit / injured and loaned out , we hadn’t sorted the want always players and expected Pochettino to perform more miracles.

With or without Pochettino, Levy needs to open the cheque book


The only miracle in the CL is we got lucky.
In the final Liverpool were probably the worse that they had been
But we were even worse
Lucky to get through
Our season we played pretty mediocre eeked out results.
This season we are not getting the luck that we had last season

How was Pochs miracles this season?
 
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