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Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189

Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
Still In for me

Out in Jan - Alderweireld, Eriksen, Aurier and Verthonghen
Eriksen, maybe yes. At the very least one CB should be re-motivated and re-invested in. I would prefer for Vertonghen to find the groove, and I believe that's a potential. I actually don't mind Aurier that much, but if he wants to leave so be it.
 

The Opinionated Lurker

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2019
720
2,554
When Mourinho got sacked by United they were 6th. So even at its ugly end with all the instability at Utd they were still 6th. Right now we’re 14th with at least in the public eye, less of an internal mess. Just a point.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
So you do not understand the objections to Mourinho. I’ll try to be bring them together clearly but there may be others.

- Yes, his man management skills since he left Inter can be called into question. Top pros at Porto, Chelsea and Inter spoke in glowing terms about him - he had an aura, he was the special one. There are still players who love him but the shine has gone when you look at his record since summer 2010. It’s not just Luke fatty Shaw.

Can't argue that although like you mentioned there are still some players who he managed fairly recently over the last decade who speak highly of him.

- He hasn’t overachieved since Inter. His most significant achievement this decade was winning the league with Chelsea. They deserved it and were good with an electric Hazard. It wasn’t a vintage edition though. City challenged but every other side was poor. We had Tim. Liverpool were in disarray. United and Arsenal were stagnating under vanGaal and Wenger.

Chelsea had the 3rd highest turnover when they won the league in 2014/15, that's the very definition of over achieving. I'm not buying the argument that he only won the league because everyone was poor, that's like saying Poch only finished top 4 because everyone else weren't good enough.

Nothing else he has done this decade represents overachievement ie the manager really added significant value. We are still in a position where to compete we need to overachieve ie manager needs to add magic.

So you don't think he added significant value when he won the league with Chelsea and Real Madrid? Any manager we get in will need to overachieve so the question is why not a manager who has a history and experience of overachieving and winning?

- Mourinho hasn’t developed players who are world class potential since his first spell at Chelsea. Young players dont develop under him. We are going to be in the market for the kind of player who Mourinho won’t develop. Unlike all of his clubs since Porto, we will not be buying ready-made world class players.

?

Inter
Sneijder
Maicon
Milito

Real
Varane
Di Maria
Ozil
Khedira
Ramos

Chelsea
Fabregas
Azpilcueta
Matic
Hazard (Only time he's ever won POTY 2014/15)

It's true that he doesn't put as much focus towards young players as Poch does for example but in the context of our current club standing what young players are in desperate need of first team action that are actually good enough right now? It's not as if we have a conveyour belt of talent waiting to burst through at Tottenham, yes the like of Skipp and possibly Sessegnon may suffer but that doesn't worry me as much as losing our best players.

- He plays turgid football. That is not the Spurs way.

Hate to say it but the Spurs way has been historically not winning any trophies, recently anyway. You either want to play majority attacking football and not pick up any pots or play majority defensive football which gives us more of a chance to pick up pots, I know what I'd prefer.

- He has notable instances of falling out with non-playing staff that creates instability at a club eg chairmen and doctors.

One instance where he fell out with the club doctor that you can say that it was 100% his fault, all the other instances are the fault of both sides, for example he fell out with Woodward because he didn't back him with the players he wanted in his final year.

There we have 5 fairly substantial critiques of Mourinhos fit for our club. He’d be great at a PSG perhaps. But not at spurs. Even if just a couple of these are valid, we would be prudent to look elsewhere.

And yes some of these things are true now. But you don’t fire someone to hire in the same problems on more money.

Bearing in mind my position to bring him in is based on a short term assignment and the fact that we'll probably lose Kane in a couple of years because he won't wait around for yet another rebuild, our team should still be at it's peak, I'm not buying that the likes of Alderweireld and Vertonghen are on their way down for example, I just think we're at a stage now where the players have been playing at a high intensity for such a long time, the natural progression for some of these players is to play at lower intensity in which Mourinho perfectly embodies.

I think as fans some of us are a bit delirious about our status as a club right now, we're not talking about the Tottenham of 5 years ago where we were seen an an also ran who saw just merely qualifying for the CL as a success. We're not talking about a team who had a small stadium, paid relatively low wages, a team who's revenue and spending budget had a limit. The period of austerity is over, we are on the map as a big club who with thanks to the stadium is only going to grow bigger in stature on and off the pitch so we deserve the best, it's about time we won something and despite all these grievances Mourinho still is the best candidate for me.
 
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Everlasting Seconds

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2014
14,914
26,616
The only United manager since Ferguson to win trophies? I'd say that deserves at least as much slack as 'we played good football under Poch a few years back'.
I think that any manager who takes an ENIC operated club to CL 4 times in a row deserves some understanding. The question is whether that grace is already exhausted. I’m inclined to think it is.
 

soflapaul

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
8,875
14,962
Mourinho has done literally nothing in his career which would cause his appointment here to make the club we’ve all supported since childhood so morally unpalatable that we’d abandon it.

Those claiming otherwise are just attention seeking, sorry.

Freeki - It is hard to do anything but agree with your first sentence as Jose has his faults, but i'm not sure that any of them would force a fan to "abandon". It's like a spouse gaining 100 lbs. Your still committed but the passion is lost. With regards to your follow up, i'm not sure that we have the ability to read's peoples minds and motivations. That's the problem in politics these days. Too many people are certain of their own ability to assign motivation to the opposition.


Mourinho wins trophies. Trophies win fans. Always have.

See Manchester City for details.

Trophies do win fans but an awful lot of them are plastics. I suspect, but am not certain, that Spurs would win a trophy or a few under Mourinho. What i don't like is that Mourinho isn't necessarily true to the club's soul. He seems to me to be more of a mercenary type. If you think that in some ways, Spurs today are in large part who we are because of Bill Nicholson, then one of his quotes stands large in my mind. “It’s no use just winning, we’ve got to win well.” Hence, those who are Poch out fans can point to our inability to live up to this standard. But Mourinho Not In can just as well use this quote as a legitimate reason for their position. If you don't think Nicholson as part of the club's DNA, then Mourinho is an admirable candidate.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,883
71,188
10.5 bad months in 5 years, and in a year we reached the CL final.

Unbelievable to see so many people wanting him to go.

We've been progressing every year since he was appointed. A couple of bad months won't change that. He can have a bad season.
He stayed when Real Madrid wanted him and some of you want to repay that faith letting him go after a couple of bad months.
FYP
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,883
71,188
Might sound a bit silly or naive. But I honestly believe the best person to judge the situation is Kane. If I was Levy and I asked Kane and he said to me the guys are fully with poch bar the obvious 2 or 3 and Kane fully believed we could turn it round I’d probably stick with him. Of course the opposite is also true. It’s very rare for a Chairman to have someone like Kane in the dressing room that you could completely trust to give an informed honest opinion for the good of the club.
Look no further than how Kane has played if you want to know what he thinks.
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,883
71,188
When Mourinho got sacked by United they were 6th. So even at its ugly end with all the instability at Utd they were still 6th. Right now we’re 14th with at least in the public eye, less of an internal mess. Just a point.
Except the public eye is rarely ever on Spurs. In reality, we are an internal mess and we’ve been one for quite a while.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Can't argue that although like you mentioned there are still some players who he managed fairly recently over the last decade who speak highly of him.



Chelsea had the 3rd highest turnover when they won the league in 2014/15, that's the very definition of over achieving. I'm not buying the argument that he only won the league because everyone was poor, that's like saying Poch only finished top 4 because everyone else weren't good enough.
Afaik turnover is not the measure to use. It’s wages. That’s where the correlation with success lies. And it makes sense because the people who are going to make the biggest difference are the players on the pitch.

Chelsea had the highest wage bill that season.

But in any case, I acknowledged he did well that season. But for someone whose main selling point is being a winner, one significant success in a decade is not that great. And it’s less significant than we thought anyway because they had the highest wages and we expect the team with the highest wages to win.

So you don't think he added significant value when he won the league with Chelsea and Real Madrid? Any manager we get in will need to overachieve so the question is why not a manager who has a history and experience of overachieving and winning?
Chelsea - see above.
Winning the league with Real Madrid ? Overachieving ? Come on. If you don’t win league or CL with Real Madrid then you’ve underachieved. They’re the biggest club in the world. He did what was expected but no more.

Although even that is generous as Madrid’s obsession and prime motivation in hiring him was to win the CL. He failed. Albeit against a legendary Barca side.


Sneijder
Maicon
Milito

Real
Varane
Di Maria
Ozil
Khedira
Ramos

Chelsea
Fabregas
Azpilcueta
Matic
Hazard (Only time he's ever won POTY 2014/15)

He did fantastic work at inter and overachieved. However...
Sneijder - 25
Maicon - 28
Milito - 30
He got the best out of top pros in their prime. Not young players who needed developing ie the kinds of players we would sign/ he would manage.

Similar at RM and Chelsea. These are not players on the whole that he helped to develop significantly. Ramos? Fabregas? Come on.

I’ll give you Varane and Azpilicueta. He’s done a great job with bringing on two players this decade and wasted a lot of young talent in the process.

It's true that he doesn't put as much focus towards young players as Poch does for example but in the context of our current club standing what young players are in desperate need of first team action that are actually good enough right now? It's not as if we have a conveyour belt of talent waiting to burst through at Tottenham, yes the like of Skipp and possibly Sessegnon may suffer but that doesn't worry me as much as losing our best players.

Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sanchez, Foyth ... new signings that we hope to make ...
All have a long way to go to reach their world class potential.


Hate to say it but the Spurs way has been historically not winning any trophies, recently anyway. You either want to play majority attacking football and not pick up any pots or play majority defensive football which gives us more of a chance to pick up pots, I know what I'd prefer.
Fiat enough. If youre explicitly willing to trade good football for the hope of winning trophies then this point makes sense.

One instance where he fell out with the club doctor that you can say that it was 100% his fault, all the other instances are the fault of both sides, for example he fell out with Woodward because he didn't back him with the players he wanted in his final year.
I don’t believe he’s a bad guy necessarily- let’s not turn him into a villain. But trouble has followed him at his last three clubs over a decade. He sure creates a stink when things don’t go his way ...


Bearing in mind my position to bring him in is based on a short term assignment and the fact that we'll probably lose Kane in a couple of years because he won't wait around for yet another rebuild, our team should still be at it's peak, I'm not buying that the likes of Alderweireld and Vertonghen are on their way down for example, I just think we're at a stage now where the players have been playing at a high intensity for such a long time, the natural progression for some of these players is to play at lower intensity in which Mourinho perfectly embodies.

I think as fans some of us are a bit delirious about our status as a club right now, we're not talking about the Tottenham of 5 years ago where we weren't seen an an also ran who say qualifying for the CL as a success. We're not talking about a team who had a small stadium, paid relatively low wages, a team who's revenue and spending budget had a limit. The period of austerity is over, we are on the map as a big club who with thanks to the stadium is only going to grow bigger in stature on and off the pitch so we deserve the best, it's about time we won something and despite all these grievances Mourinho still is the best candidate for me.

People are arguing we should trade our football values to win an FA cup with Mourinho.

For me values are important. It’s not all about winning. It’s also about bringing through young players, including academy and English players, playing exciting attacking football and having respect for the game. All of these would be compromised with Mourinho and in return we are unlikely to win a top tier competition. No thanks.
 

archiewasking

Waiting for silverware..........
Jul 5, 2004
7,848
11,668
For me values are important. It’s not all about winning. It’s also about bringing through young players, including academy and English players, playing exciting attacking football and having respect for the game. All of these would be compromised with Mourinho and in return we are unlikely to win a top tier competition. No thanks.

Do you really believe Pochettino has done that consistently over his tenure, or that he will do? I struggle to believe his aura as the champion of youth. If it's not all about winning, we might as well be Leicester, Norwich, Peterborough or Dulwich Hamlet. And the exciting football? All too rare. Burkinshaw's teams I always found exciting. Poch for a while, but not consistently for a long while.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
PICH has
Do you really believe Pochettino has done that consistently over his tenure, or that he will do? I struggle to believe his aura as the champion of youth. If it's not all about winning, we might as well be Leicester, Norwich, Peterborough or Dulwich Hamlet. And the exciting football? All too rare. Burkinshaw's teams I always found exciting. Poch for a while, but not consistently for a long while.
Poch has fallen short for the past year in terms of playing style and hasn’t done enough for youth (although not too bad!). But as I keep saying, it’s not a choice between Poch and Mourinho. They aren’t the only two managers in the world. It’s a choice between Poch and someone better.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Afaik turnover is not the measure to use. It’s wages. That’s where the correlation with success lies. And it makes sense because the people who are going to make the biggest difference are the players on the pitch.

Chelsea had the highest wage bill that season.

But in any case, I acknowledged he did well that season. But for someone whose main selling point is being a winner, one significant success in a decade is not that great. And it’s less significant than we thought anyway because they had the highest wages and we expect the team with the highest wages to win.

Fair enough, he achieved par with Chelsea also I make it two significant success in a decade as he won the league at Real Madrid in 2011/12. We can twist this as much as we can but 3 clubs since 2011 and he's won the league twice with them in their respective countries, that to me is a winner.

Chelsea - see above.
Winning the league with Real Madrid ? Overachieving ? Come on. If you don’t win league or CL with Real Madrid then you’ve underachieved. They’re the biggest club in the world. He did what was expected but no more.

Although even that is generous as Madrid’s obsession and prime motivation in hiring him was to win the CL. He failed. Albeit against a legendary Barca side.

I didn't say he overachieved with Real Madrid did I, your argument was about significant value, not over achievement?

Although going by the logic of wages then he did in fact overachieved as Barca had the biggest wage bill that season regardless:



He did fantastic work at inter and overachieved. However...
Sneijder - 25
Maicon - 28
Milito - 30
He got the best out of top pros in their prime. Not young players who needed developing ie the kinds of players we would sign/ he would manage.

Similar at RM and Chelsea. These are not players on the whole that he helped to develop significantly. Ramos? Fabregas? Come on.

I’ll give you Varane and Azpilicueta. He’s done a great job with bringing on two players this decade and wasted a lot of young talent in the process.

Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sanchez, Foyth ... new signings that we hope to make ...
All have a long way to go to reach their world class potential.

Okay so this is your entirely your arbitrary criteria of players with world class potential I see fair enough so doesn't Di Maria (24) Ozil (23) and Higuain (23) count in that criteria?

By the way why are you so sure we'd sign young players on the verge of World Class especially if Mourinho is in charge, I know this is hypothetical but surely he would want the players he knows he can work with? I mean didn't we try to sign Dybala this summer, that's probably telling you where we are in regards to potential transfers and our ability to attract stars.


Fiat enough. If youre explicitly willing to trade good football for the hope of winning trophies then this point makes sense.


I don’t believe he’s a bad guy necessarily- let’s not turn him into a villain. But trouble has followed him at his last three clubs over a decade. He sure creates a stink when things don’t go his way...

People are arguing we should trade our football values to win an FA cup with Mourinho.

For me values are important. It’s not all about winning. It’s also about bringing through young players, including academy and English players, playing exciting attacking football and having respect for the game. All of these would be compromised with Mourinho and in return we are unlikely to win a top tier competition. No thanks.

I don't understand that, it's not as if we're any close to winning anything at the moment are we?

My stance is purely for selfish reasons, forget morals for a second, the team we have now is still capable of winning a trophy IMO, it wasn't long as that we were in a CL final so they have it in them. I believe we have the experience we just need confidence and the players need a shot in the arm, I think we can allow ourselves to sacrifice 2 years of focusing on the first team as it's not as if we have anyone great coming through the academy anyway.

I'm sure there's people who share your vision and would love to play great football but we're pretty starved of success now.
 
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Dillspur

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2004
3,747
9,926
PICH has

Poch has fallen short for the past year in terms of playing style and hasn’t done enough for youth (although not too bad!). But as I keep saying, it’s not a choice between Poch and Mourinho. They aren’t the only two managers in the world. It’s a choice between Poch and someone better.

Who is someone better that we can get?
 
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