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Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

Should Poch stay or go?

  • Stay

    Votes: 657 55.3%
  • Go

    Votes: 532 44.7%

  • Total voters
    1,189

jonnie83

Active Member
Feb 24, 2005
318
198
Poch has been the best manager in my lifetime but i am firmly in the Poch out way of thinking. He must have lost the dressing room. The final nail in the coffin was the Brighton game for me should have gone then.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Nonetheless, he still did it and that is something that Poch has struggled with at Spurs and for Poch, that's a huge thing to not be able to get done. Poch's whole football ethos relies on one system and style and that is it and his system is brutal. From the training to the high-intensity matches it stretches the player's abilities to the maximum and at its core is fitness.

I watched a lot of Leeds last season, for the simple reason of watching a Bielsa system and seeing how it compares to Poch's and they are so similar. The problem for Leeds and Bielsa last season was burnout and that is a direct comparison to what we see at Spurs. Once Poch sees that he no longer has the players to perform, then the results vanish as he relies exclusively on one style of play. Poch is the problem, not the players. A manager with any tactical knowledge would do a better job than Poch.

I'm not a fan of Jose and isn't top of my list to replace Poch, however, if it was him or Poch and no other choice? I'd go for Jose all the time and that is because of how weak Poch's tactical game is.
Yes but we don’t live in a world where it’s either poch or Jose. There are other options and Jose brings so many negatives he’s not worth it
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Poch has been the best manager in my lifetime but i am firmly in the Poch out way of thinking. He must have lost the dressing room. The final nail in the coffin was the Brighton game for me should have gone then.
What were all the other nails at that point? Doesn’t seem like you need many nails in your coffins.
 

jonnie83

Active Member
Feb 24, 2005
318
198
Poch has always had flaws, but his man motivator style covered these up. Now that the players don’t seem interested I can’t see a way back.

Burnley away was where the rot started. I have never seen such a dramatic change in results away from home. I am sure we went from the best to worst away form in under a year. That is just not acceptable
 

Oh Teddy Teddy

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2017
5,126
12,060
When Poch took over we had a defence of

Lloris
Walker Dawson Vertonghen Rose

Yesterday we started with

Gazza
Aurier Sanchez Dier Davies

Aside from signing Toby, who now wants to leave, he has massively degraded our defence. The worst thing is he was a defender

you know Lloris, Jan and Rose are still here right?:cautious:
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
Yes but we don’t live in a world where it’s either poch or Jose. There are other options and Jose brings so many negatives he’s not worth it
It was hypothetical to emphasise just how bad we have become under Poch. I don't want Jose either, but I would argue that there are many negatives at the club right now under Poch, in fact, there have been for a good while. In terms of success, Jose has always delivered silverware in some form or another, which is far more than Poch has.

I get why so many don't want Jose and he would be my least favourite to replace Poch, but I certainly wouldn't discount him based on the times he has crashed and burned at clubs and still won things. The guy has a career win % of 64.8 spanned over 18 years and 8 clubs and has won a mixture of 25 league titles and cups, including 3 premier league titles and 2 Champions league titles.
 

mattspur1

Well-Known Member
Apr 8, 2005
1,170
1,245
I don't get this 'rebuild' situation.

We need 4 new players in my mind, left and right back, centre back and a striker.

Rebuild suggests the majority of the players we have aren't part of the future. That would mean moving a load of them on and then jumping into the market to replace them. That's not going to happen.

The problem to me is not particularly the players. It's the tactics and style of play. That's where the change needs to be for me. Play with intensity and, stop going backwards.
 

freeeki

Arsehole.
Aug 5, 2008
11,836
69,426
I don't get this 'rebuild' situation.

We need 4 new players in my mind, left and right back, centre back and a striker.

Rebuild suggests the majority of the players we have aren't part of the future. That would mean moving a load of them on and then jumping into the market to replace them. That's not going to happen.

The problem to me is not particularly the players. It's the tactics and style of play. That's where the change needs to be for me. Play with intensity and, stop going backwards.

As we saw yesterday, changing the line up doesn’t seem to change the lack of on-field motivation.

It’s now clear beyond any doubt that the manager is part of the problem here.

Yes we need new players in the positions mentioned, but we also need a new manager. Preferably one who won’t take 6 months to think about playing a new signing.
 

Primativ

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
3,229
12,486
Good article from Ally imo


The thing is yet again Ally falls into the trap of making loads of excuses for Poch. For example why are so many players wanting to leave the club? Could it be because of Poch that they want to leave? ITKs have intimated some players would stay if Poch moved on.

What about the appalling form of the entire collective squad? Ok so a few players want to leave, but to a man every single player is playing abysmal. So that’s not Poch’s fault either?

The poor performances and decline has been going on you could probably go back two years to see the first signs of it all falling apart.

He isn’t the messiah some thought he was. He’s a limited one dimensional manager with major flaws. Seems at his best working with young inexperienced players and that’s about it. Tactically limited. Look how many times we’d turn up to play city and liverpool and play straight into their hands. He never once tried to adapt his tactics. That won’t win you titles.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,986
81,916
Good article from Ally imo

It’s a decent enough article.

He is right that five players actively want out and didn’t get their move. Four were mainstays.

A lack of funding over the years has taken its toll.

Expectations are high but this is a difficult season.

However, Poch is known for developing young players. I currently see little evidence of this.

The likes of Sanchez, Foyth and KWP don’t appear to be developing to a level where they are ready to play.

Then the players that do appear to want to be here like Dier and Davies aren’t performing either.

Porch doesn’t appear the right man to turn this around in the short term.

I don’t have trust in him to put a cohesive team together with what he has at his disposal or that he will make the right changes during a game to get a result.
 

SuperSpurs69

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
668
1,368
Good article from Ally imo


Can't believe that it's been 94 matches since he played the same 11 in consecutive games, that must be the best part of nearly 2 years.

I know we've been very unlucky in terms of injuries but surely there's been plenty of times in those last 2 years where he could have played the same 11 in multiple games.

Our strongest first 11 is a title challenging team in the hands of the right manager. Poch has done wonders for us but he just doesn't have the experience to take us to the pinnacle. Pep and Klopp have so much more experience when it comes to maintaining a title challenge over a season and unfortunately that's something that poch is missing, he's not a serial winner and that is why our next manager needs to have that experience.
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
So, the morning after the draw to Sheffield United, with 1,089 votes cast, Poxit stands at 44.5% and Pochain at 55.5%, a margin of 11%, down from the high of around 24% (without going back and double-checking).
 

Spurs' Pipe Dreams

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2011
20,008
32,728
The thing is yet again Ally falls into the trap of making loads of excuses for Poch. For example why are so many players wanting to leave the club? Could it be because of Poch that they want to leave? ITKs have intimated some players would stay if Poch moved on.

What about the appalling form of the entire collective squad? Ok so a few players want to leave, but to a man every single player is playing abysmal. So that’s not Poch’s fault either?

The poor performances and decline has been going on you could probably go back two years to see the first signs of it all falling apart.

He isn’t the messiah some thought he was. He’s a limited one dimensional manager with major flaws. Seems at his best working with young inexperienced players and that’s about it. Tactically limited. Look how many times we’d turn up to play city and liverpool and play straight into their hands. He never once tried to adapt his tactics. That won’t win you titles.

It’s a decent enough article.

He is right that five players actively want out and didn’t get their move. Four were mainstays.

A lack of funding over the years has taken its toll.

Expectations are high but this is a difficult season.

However, Poch is known for developing young players. I currently see little evidence of this.

The likes of Sanchez, Foyth and KWP don’t appear to be developing to a level where they are ready to play.

Then the players that do appear to want to be here like Dier and Davies aren’t performing either.

Porch doesn’t appear the right man to turn this around in the short term.

I don’t have trust in him to put a cohesive team together with what he has at his disposal or that he will make the right changes during a game to get a result.
Can't believe that it's been 94 matches since he played the same 11 in consecutive games, that must be the best part of nearly 2 years.

I know we've been very unlucky in terms of injuries but surely there's been plenty of times in those last 2 years where he could have played the same 11 in multiple games.

Our strongest first 11 is a title challenging team in the hands of the right manager. Poch has done wonders for us but he just doesn't have the experience to take us to the pinnacle. Pep and Klopp have so much more experience when it comes to maintaining a title challenge over a season and unfortunately that's something that poch is missing, he's not a serial winner and that is why our next manager needs to have that experience.

Thanks for the replies about an article I didn't write, okay.

Football fans are so reactionary and short-sighted, it's quite funny really.

Pochettino has just entered his 5th season, in the previous 4 we have got CL football whilst underspending all our rivals, we have had 2/3 title challenges (actual title challenges), we had a CL final appearance another final appearance and some semi appearances. We have outperformed on almost every metric given the money we have spent and seen an influx of youth from signings and internally and they have all developed under Poch's tutelage.

Levy carries the blame for the current malaise but in the same breath, we also have a £bn stadium heralded as one of the best in the world.

Yes, we are playing poorly, especially at home but that is kinda expected when you have players who don't want to be there and Levy has failed to let them go. It's also a brand new stadium and that takes time for players to adjust, it also doesn't help when the fans get on players backs.

You all want Poch to go, that's fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion but I will ask you all two questions...who the fuck do we get instead? And do you think Pochettino will fail or succeed at whatever club he takes over at?
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
33,986
81,916
Thanks for the replies about an article I didn't write, okay.

Football fans are so reactionary and short-sighted, it's quite funny really.

Pochettino has just entered his 5th season, in the previous 4 we have got CL football whilst underspending all our rivals, we have had 2/3 title challenges (actual title challenges), we had a CL final appearance another final appearance and some semi appearances. We have outperformed on almost every metric given the money we have spent and seen an influx of youth from signings and internally and they have all developed under Poch's tutelage.

Levy carries the blame for the current malaise but in the same breath, we also have a £bn stadium heralded as one of the best in the world.

Yes, we are playing poorly, especially at home but that is kinda expected when you have players who don't want to be there and Levy has failed to let them go. It's also a brand new stadium and that takes time for players to adjust, it also doesn't help when the fans get on players backs.

You all want Poch to go, that's fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion but I will ask you all two questions...who the fuck do we get instead? And do you think Pochettino will fail or succeed at whatever club he takes over at?
I don’t think my post can be called reactionary at all.

My view is Poch has done an excellent job overall and Ali is right that this is a difficult time.

I don’t believe in putting all the blame on Levy anymore than Poch.

I do believe that Poch is not managing the current situation well though that alone is not reason to fire him.

I am on the fence with regards to sacking him. I err on the side of firing as I believe very few managers turn things around when performances are bad for such a long time. I also don’t believe the players that want to stay are busting a gut for him which is a worrying sign.

You put up an article, I assume so we could read it and discuss it. So why get defensive over the fact you didn’t write it?
 

rez9000

Any point?
Feb 8, 2007
11,942
21,098
Thanks for the replies about an article I didn't write, okay.

Football fans are so reactionary and short-sighted, it's quite funny really.

Pochettino has just entered his 5th season, in the previous 4 we have got CL football whilst underspending all our rivals, we have had 2/3 title challenges (actual title challenges), we had a CL final appearance another final appearance and some semi appearances. We have outperformed on almost every metric given the money we have spent and seen an influx of youth from signings and internally and they have all developed under Poch's tutelage.

Levy carries the blame for the current malaise but in the same breath, we also have a £bn stadium heralded as one of the best in the world.

Yes, we are playing poorly, especially at home but that is kinda expected when you have players who don't want to be there and Levy has failed to let them go. It's also a brand new stadium and that takes time for players to adjust, it also doesn't help when the fans get on players backs.

You all want Poch to go, that's fair enough and you're entitled to your opinion but I will ask you all two questions...who the fuck do we get instead? And do you think Pochettino will fail or succeed at whatever club he takes over at?
My answer to your two questions, SPD is:
  1. I honestly can't see who we could realistically get who could replace Poch and first replicate and then build on what he's done
  2. He would succeed at another club, I have little doubt.
The problem, or rather, what has turned this into a huge problem, rather than just a significant one is Poch's public persona and pronouncements.

If he hadn't suddenly developed this hot-and-cold, moody persona in press conferences and, most pertinently, hadn't spouted that bollocks about leaving if we won the CL, even if he said it in jest, I think a certain section of the fans wouldn't be quite so vocal in their condemnation.

Obviously, it's impossible to expect any person to get it right every single time, but those public persona gaffs are a little like goalkeeper howlers - you could have a perfectly good goalkeeper, who time and again makes routine but good saves and helps the team, but it's their occasional howlers that live on in people's memories and they use that to judge the player on, rather than all the times he's made decent saves.

The whole situation is very dispiriting and confusing.

Too many people make statements of 'fact', when in actuality it's nothing but supposition based on information of uncertain provenance. The number of times I've seen statements like, 'it's clear he's lost the dressing room' or 'it's clear he can't sort this out'. Really? How is it clear? Not one of the people making these statements spends any time in and around the actual club, so they are just supposing. That said, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong.

Likewise, statements like, 'the best manager since blah-blah and some fans want to get rid of him' are equally bad, especially when they are levelled as broadsides against people who are, justifiably, upset with our current performance levels and position in the League. But likewise, they too may not be wrong.

The thing that depresses me most is the itch that so many have to cast blame - as if there has to be a villain of the piece for them to blast their ire at. Few have shown any desire to say that maybe, just maybe, this is a more complicated situation than they realise and that simple, broad 'solutions' like sacking the manager or benching such-and-such or getting rid of the chairman won't actually solve the underlying issues.

I don't know what the best path is. I do know that we aren't doing well right now. I also believe that there is no one root cause behind it and that it will undoubtedly be a combination of factors that are contributing. With that belief, even if Pochettino is one of those underlying issues, I don't see it as likely that getting rid of him is going to solve all the others. I advocate neither his removal nor his retention as I am not informed or qualified enough to make that determination.

I've rambled long enough and, against my in-built desire, not signed off with a firm conclusion. That, to me, demonstrates how complicated the situation is.
 
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