Poch: In or Out? - You CAN change your vote

[nedley]

Have we had any itks commenting on this crisis at all?

 

[The Opinionated Lurker]

If Poch survives til Liverpool but we’re still spluttering, I think they’ll be the ones to put him down

 

[ljinko888]

Sissoko questions Pochettino's tactics following Bayern loss

Tottenham fell to a 7-2 Champions League defeat to the Bundesliga club

www.football.london

Spurs midfielder Moussa Sissoko has claimed that playing with a diamond midfield means that the players tire more easily than playing any other system.

Cheers for backing me Moussa

Big Moussa waiting for the moment the club hands him a big, long contract to speak out!

Joking aside if an absolute physical beast like him is saying it is exhausting to play in then the manager has to listen.

 

[Mr Pink]

In.

But he hasn't got much time to turn this around. I said a few weeks back I'd like to see him given until Watford.

Need to see a minimum of 4 points from the next two games.

I do fear if we lose at Brighton we may well see a mutual termination of his contract.

Need a convincing win with quality on Sat.

Think we need a minimum of 6 points nedders

 

[Ronwol196061]

I cant understand how he thought Winks could hold Bayern himself .
We know that NDombele had problems with stamina and it worked out well him pushing NDombele forward as he started to create really well with the through balls
Sissoko also was deployed central and often went up. Winks was left alone
Throw in the backs at times went forward so how did Poch think that all wouldnt be dangerous.
It was a gamble at best.
So the only way he can redeem himself is Poch has to solve that problem.How he plays the midfield.

 

[wrd]

Big Moussa waiting for the moment the club hands him a big, long contract to speak out!

Joking aside if an absolute physical beast like him is saying it is exhausting to play in then the manager has to listen.

Agree on both your points, I'm really happy he's spoke up for the team, I want Poch to stay but Sissoko has pretty much validated what Trix has been banging on about and he needs to see the light.

 

[nedley]

Think we need a minimum of 6 points nedders

I agree.

But if we draw this weekend I still think he'll be given more time to turn it around. A loss and its curtains.

 

[si_yidarmy]

Let's just say - if we lose to Brighton and Watford - that is it

But my heart is saying this - we will win both, we will get 6 points against RSB, 1 point against Olympionaikos (can't be bothered to check the spelling) and we will win at Bayern.

COME ON YOU SPURS

BelieveInPoch

(Something is going on in the background at Spurs for sure but some things are out of control, even the Manager's

 

[mrlilywhite]

A formation plays a large part in performance, I think you're dismissing it way too easily, look at Chelsea under Conte, they were shocking got tanked 3-0 by Arsenal, switched to 3-4-3 and went and broke the prem record for wins in a row. A system is important, maybe it doesn't matter in terms of the rigidness of setting up in a particular position but a system answers certain questions
- Does the team have width or not
- If it does have width where does it come from, is it from the fullbacks or wingers
- If it's the fullbacks what is approach to covering the space they leave behind
- Do you have a midfielder who allows the central defenders to split and cover space or do they need to stay central
- What is the role of the midfielders out of possesion, do they help with fullbacks or are they covering the edge of the box

You talk about the fitness, you talk about the pressing, well The diamond literally impacts those things in a negative way, our midfielders were being dragged from one side to the next because Bayern were excellent at switching the play, now we could have approached the system in a way where we had two wingers covering those positions. We had space behind because our fullbacks were exhausted from trying to provide the width, again we could have conserved their energy by not asking so much of them. How can we press when we're being dragged from one side to the other.

I'm not dismissing the importance of a formation - with everything you need a framework to work in and the formation provides that. A formation is usually made up of generic positions which serve as a starting base for your system, so in the Diamond formation, you can opt to play narrow or a wide formation within that particular framework of a diamond. The system you place on the formation determines it's overall effectiveness and not the other way around. Three basic things you need to make a tactic work are -

• A formation - gives the overall shape of a team in which you play.
• A system - The instructions for the team and individuals in which they have their defined roles.
• The Players - just a case of choosing the right players that fit your style and formation.

Strictly speaking, you can set up a formation with a team and just say to your Defensive midfielder, you play as a DM or your Full backs are just that full-backs, etc - but having that you seriously negate the strengths of any given player, that is why you have a system that gives players more defined roles and responsibilities, so that is one aspect of the system. The other aspect of the system is what you want the team to do as a whole, which defines the overall objectives of the team in an attacking phase and a defensive phase.

A system works and operates on the basis of instructions and without them and using just generic roles defined in any given formation would see the perennial headless chickens running around the park.

The Diamond formation is one example of how it didn't work last night, though I would caveat that by saying with the players we had last night, the same would have happened with a 4-2-3-1 as the fullbacks would still have had to contribute heavily to the attacking phase of the game, that would have left winks isolated and you would have had N'dombele and Sissoko further up the flanks as opposed to more central positions and still having to track back to cover the full-backs. Sure you would have had more protection on the wings but poch prefers to play narrow anyway, so you would have still had the same problem of having the full-backs exposed to maybe a lesser degree.

Any strength a formation has is determined by the roles and instructions (system) that operate within it - just switching to a different formation isn't always nearly enough and I bet your bottom dollar that Conte tweaked the system to suit the formation better.

So moving onto the Poch system. Poch's system has always worked better in a 4-2-3-1, I think we can agree on that? However, disregarding the formation for a minute and focus on the counter-press. It is a system, without question that demands absolute high levels of fitness and concentration - you also have to be totally committed as a player to play in it. Those are absolute givens. Training is intense and there is a high probability of injuries if the squad isn't rotated enough. You then have to make sure that any players coming into the system are drilled in exactly the same way as the ones who are being rotated, on top of that you also have to have squad depth players that can play effectively in the role.

So in the current malaise that we find ourselves in, it isn't, or shouldn't be the formation that gives us bigger concerns, but whether we can utilise the counter-press or poch's system to affect games in a positive way. Is Poch using the right formation? No, he isn't - the diamond has it's flaws (pun not intended) and is not suited to style of play, however until we or poch manage to use the Press in such a way that it improves stability, then he needs to focus on another system, a plan B if you will and that has always been one of his problems. A big point often neglected is the age of the squad now, relative to the one that poch had when the press was working well. Players lose natural fitness as they age and injuries take their toll, so it is only natural, that in a system that demands peak physical fitness that players would be found wanting eventually.

 

[wrd]

I'm not dismissing the importance of a formation - with everything you need a framework to work in and the formation provides that. A formation is usually made up of generic positions which serve as a starting base for your system, so in the Diamond formation, you can opt to play narrow or a wide formation within that particular framework of a diamond. The system you place on the formation determines it's overall effectiveness and not the other way around. Three basic things you need to make a tactic work are -

• A formation - gives the overall shape of a team in which you play.
• A system - The instructions for the team and individuals in which they have their defined roles.
• The Players - just a case of choosing the right players that fit your style and formation.

Strictly speaking, you can set up a formation with a team and just say to your Defensive midfielder, you play as a DM or your Full backs are just that full-backs, etc - but having that you seriously negate the strengths of any given player, that is why you have a system that gives players more defined roles and responsibilities, so that is one aspect of the system. The other aspect of the system is what you want the team to do as a whole, which defines the overall objectives of the team in an attacking phase and a defensive phase.

A system works and operates on the basis of instructions and without them and using just generic roles defined in any given formation would see the perennial headless chickens running around the park.

The Diamond formation is one example of how it didn't work last night, though I would caveat that by saying with the players we had last night, the same would have happened with a 4-2-3-1 as the fullbacks would still have had to contribute heavily to the attacking phase of the game, that would have left winks isolated and you would have had N'dombele and Sissoko further up the flanks as opposed to more central positions and still having to track back to cover the full-backs. Sure you would have had more protection on the wings but poch prefers to play narrow anyway, so you would have still had the same problem of having the full-backs exposed to maybe a lesser degree.

Any strength a formation has is determined by the roles and instructions (system) that operate within it - just switching to a different formation isn't always nearly enough and I bet your bottom dollar that Conte tweaked the system to suit the formation better.

So moving onto the Poch system. Poch's system has always worked better in a 4-2-3-1, I think we can agree on that? However, disregarding the formation for a minute and focus on the counter-press. It is a system, without question that demands absolute high levels of fitness and concentration - you also have to be totally committed as a player to play in it. Those are absolute givens. Training is intense and there is a high probability of injuries if the squad isn't rotated enough. You then have to make sure that any players coming into the system are drilled in exactly the same way as the ones who are being rotated, on top of that you also have to have squad depth players that can play effectively in the role.

So in the current malaise that we find ourselves in, it isn't, or shouldn't be the formation that gives us bigger concerns, but whether we can utilise the counter-press or poch's system to affect games in a positive way. Is Poch using the right formation? No, he isn't - the diamond has it's flaws (pun not intended) and is not suited to style of play, however until we or poch manage to use the Press in such a way that it improves stability, then he needs to focus on another system, a plan B if you will and that has always been one of his problems. A big point often neglected is the age of the squad now, relative to the one that poch had when the press was working well. Players lose natural fitness as they age and injuries take their toll, so it is only natural, that in a system that demands peak physical fitness that players would be found wanting eventually.

Yeah I think you're spot on, excellent post. I completely agree that a large part of the problem is the personnel, the demands of said personnel but also the system which he has which is ruining the players fitness and thus we can't execute the press no matter what physical specimens we have out there. As you say the diamond itself is not a problem, it can't be implemented in such a way which takes away the ridiculous fitness demands of players and in a way in which we can press properly. How Poch is doing that is the problem and the players he has doing it is also a huge problem.

 

[Ronwol196061]

I'm not an expert on formations but I find Pochs teams were top heavy with defenders and pressers,tough tacklers too.
We had problem often when the counter wasn't on and playing out from the back getting the ball down quick enough to the forwards to find space.
Now we have Ndombele he moves the ball very incisely forward to a player in space.That a big change for us.
When Dembeke was with us he provided that extra cover for defence but our attack relied on our counter and not balls through Dembele (they were not telling balls by Dembele)
So Ndombele doesn't aid the defence that much but he can split defences.
Sissoko has been one of our stalwarts but cannot be everything back and forth. Winks has a lot of prestige in the team but diesnt have powerful defensive qualities like Dier or Wanyama had with strength
So how do you play them to make it effective?
Winks as a DM against good teams is not enough defensively.
Sorry I cant put this in formation form so please bear with me but if you have any ideas please put them out there

 

[mrlilywhite]

Yeah I think you're spot on, excellent post. I completely agree that a large part of the problem is the personnel, the demands of said personnel but also the system which he has which is ruining the players fitness and thus we can't execute the press no matter what physical specimens we have out there. As you say the diamond itself is not a problem, it can't be implemented in such a way which takes away the ridiculous fitness demands of players and in a way in which we can press properly. How Poch is doing that is the problem and the players he has doing it is also a huge problem.

I think as fans we look too much for the obvious things that go wrong and often fail to see what is the real underlying reason(s). There are real problems at our club right now and putting aside player unrest, etc - we need to see how we move forward from this. I have always thought that Poch's system is the best in the world when it works. If you have the right players, then it is easy to implement. When it goes wrong though it does so in spectacular fashion.

If poch's system is to work then he is right, he needs the right players to make it work and that provides some answer may be as to why he has been so hesitant over signings? It is a system that needs a constant cycle of players - ones that get old need to be shipped out, as their natural fitness deems them pretty much unusable in such a system. Poch needs to find that balance of utilising what he has and using his system because from where I am standing, I don't see any other options from him forthcoming or else they would be here by now. So what are we left with? A team that doesn't or can't play to their manager's system (big issue) and a manager that is either reluctant through choice to change or does not seriously have a plan B (another big issue).

I have been overly critical of Poch and would love him to stay and get it right, but I have seen this coming for such a long time and each time I give him the benefit of doubt, because he is the manager of a high profile premier league club who the media rave about as the next best thing and he'll sort it in the end. Ultimately and unfortunately I have concluded that after all there doesn't appear to be an alternate system that can balance one fault for another and make it work.

When and if Poch goes I have no doubt that a club laden with a belly of cash at their disposal would get the best out of Poch and his system. It is a hard system to counter when it is in full swing and I truly believe he will be a huge success, unfortunately, that can't be with us, as we would have to supplement his philosophy and we can't afford that.

 

[mrlilywhite]

I'm not an expert on formations but I find Pochs teams were top heavy with defenders and pressers,tough tacklers too.
We had problem often when the counter wasn't on and playing out from the back getting the ball down quick enough to the forwards to find space.
Now we have Ndombele he moves the ball very incisely forward to a player in space.That a big change for us.
When Dembeke was with us he provided that extra cover for defence but our attack relied on our counter and not balls through Dembele (they were not telling balls by Dembele)
So Ndombele doesn't aid the defence that much but he can split defences.
Sissoko has been one of our stalwarts but cannot be everything back and forth. Winks has a lot of prestige in the team but diesnt have powerful defensive qualities like Dier or Wanyama had with strength
So how do you play them to make it effective?
Winks as a DM against good teams is not enough defensively.
Sorry I cant put this in formation form so please bear with me but if you have any ideas please put them out there

The system that Poch plays demands that we have tough tacklers - in a high press situation in his system you need ball winners as much as you need aerial power and creative players. It utilises all of that.

Actually N'Dombele is a clone if you like of Dembele, sure they have different aspects of their game, but if you were looking for a like to like replacement, then he would be it, however, his fitness isn't up to point yet and Poch has alluded to that. Don't be forgiven that he isn't fit, he is, but he isn't Poch system fit and that is a different kettle of fish. Given time you will see the defensive qualities of N'Dombele for sure.

Sissoko is a funny one though - the guy can run and run, but he doesn't really have a defined role in any position and at 30 years old is past it where Poch is concerned. Winks is playing in the wrong role period - he isn't a DM by name, but more of a playmaker that can command the central area, but not defensive like Wanyama or Dier.

In a traditional 4-3-2-1 you would most def have someone like Dier as your typical ball winner. He won't engage in attacking situations but instead offer a protective shield in front of the defenders, Toby and Jan or Sanchez.

Winks, N'Dombele and even Lo Celso will offer more of an outlet in attacking phases and will contribute defensively in a defensive phase. Both Lo Celso and N'Dombele are exactly what we need and Lo Celso can play a variety of roles very well and that excites me a lot. N'Dombele, given time will be one of the most sought after players in Europe in his position. Looking at it like that, then yes things look very good, but that doesn't really tell the whole story. If Levy is brave and results can come our way, then there is a chance that Poch hets out this well, but right now it doesn't look good. Looking at it objectively - Poch needs a bloody lot in terms of players. for a start you have to take out all the players that are either wanting to go or just are not able to do the press anymore.

In my opinion, we need -

Right back
Left back - possibly. depending on what Sess is used for
Eriksen replacement (possibly - see Lo Celso)
Centre halves (possibly, as these two are not affected as much in the press like others, so natural fitness isn't as important)
GK - Lloris would have to go.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

And this for me is why I’m on the potch out fence. Tactically Ive never ever thought he was good enough. Klopp and pep are on another level. poch errors:
- son LWB in fa cup semi
- not reacting to alegri tactical switch in CL QF
- poor tactics in fa cup semi vs man.u, Jose completely got the better of him even though we had a better team
- this seasons diamond doesn’t work
- dropped Lucas for the CL final when Kane wasn’t fit and Lucas was on form of his life
- making subs too late
- no plan B
- no consistent plan A
- poor game management
- poor use of the media

I could go on.

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

 

[mattyzb]

Stand by poch

 

[mrlilywhite]

If Poch can turn this around then I’m all for that I just can’t see it. But IF he can then I wish he’d stop playing the fucking diamond and just play this team: (4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid), it worked fine for ages why change it.

Lloris

KWP/Foyth/Aurier
Toby/Sanchez
Jan/Foyth
Rose/Davies

Dier!!!/Wanyama/Skipp (CDM)
Ndombele/Sissoko/Winks (CM)

Lucas/Lamela/Eriksen (RM)
Dele/Lo celso (CAM)
Son/Sessengon (LM)

Kane (ST)

Play like we did 2016-17 when we chased down Leicester or season after when we came 2nd to Chelsea it was 4-2-3-1/3-4-2-1 hybrid all season , players knew what they were doing and we dominated every game. Ndombele can be dembele and the rest of team apart from KWP is the same or upgraded, really don’t see why he moved away from this, it was working so well we just needed to add a few more players, since then things have spiralled downwards.

It's not impossible that Poch turns this around. It is going to take some doing though and he needs every hand on deck. Poch only has one system. Take formations out of it and focus just on what he needs to do to get his system right first. A formation just gives you a starting base to work from and maintains shape in a pre-defined way. The system or style is where Poch earns his money. Now every one of those players you have named has to be totally committed and both physically and mentally strong. Now, how many do you count in their current form would you suggest can do just the basic stuff that a poch counter press demands?

 

[sausage]

Have we had any itks commenting on this crisis at all?

Yes, essentially suggesting the dressing room may be lost.

DanKP (as ITK as Ally Gold, I guess) did an AMA on reddit and suggested that it's not near any breaking point, to summarise:

I personally can't see the club sacking Poch anytime soon, unless the situation goes nuclear. He's worked miracles for the past five years and Levy is very aware of the magnitude of his achievements in difficult circumstances, particularly while the stadium was being finished last season.

Rest is here

 

[Ronwol196061]

The system that Poch plays demands that we have tough tacklers - in a high press situation in his system you need ball winners as much as you need aerial power and creative players. It utilises all of that.

Actually N'Dombele is a clone if you like of Dembele, sure they have different aspects of their game, but if you were looking for a like to like replacement, then he would be it, however, his fitness isn't up to point yet and Poch has alluded to that. Don't be forgiven that he isn't fit, he is, but he isn't Poch system fit and that is a different kettle of fish. Given time you will see the defensive qualities of N'Dombele for sure.

Sissoko is a funny one though - the guy can run and run, but he doesn't really have a defined role in any position and at 30 years old is past it where Poch is concerned. Winks is playing in the wrong role period - he isn't a DM by name, but more of a playmaker that can command the central area, but not defensive like Wanyama or Dier.

In a traditional 4-3-2-1 you would most def have someone like Dier as your typical ball winner. He won't engage in attacking situations but instead offer a protective shield in front of the defenders, Toby and Jan or Sanchez.

Winks, N'Dombele and even Lo Celso will offer more of an outlet in attacking phases and will contribute defensively in a defensive phase. Both Lo Celso and N'Dombele are exactly what we need and Lo Celso can play a variety of roles very well and that excites me a lot. N'Dombele, given time will be one of the most sought after players in Europe in his position. Looking at it like that, then yes things look very good, but that doesn't really tell the whole story. If Levy is brave and results can come our way, then there is a chance that Poch hets out this well, but right now it doesn't look good. Looking at it objectively - Poch needs a bloody lot in terms of players. for a start you have to take out all the players that are either wanting to go or just are not able to do the press anymore.

In my opinion, we need -

Right back
Left back - possibly. depending on what Sess is used for
Eriksen replacement (possibly - see Lo Celso)
Centre halves (possibly, as these two are not affected as much in the press like others, so natural fitness isn't as important)
GK - Lloris would have to go.

I agree that the closest player a a Dembeke us infact Ndombele but the one thing Ndombele does that Dembele dudnt do as a CM is hit those through balls or telling balls. For me this is a tremendous advantage firstly because when we attack we can quickly and directly that didnt happen with Dembele. Dembele brought greater stability to defence and also protection of the ball when in possession. NDombele plays a riskier game but you can see how dynamic his passing can be so with knowing that and without reeling him in (as Poch may want to do pull him back) how can we secure the defence or at least the first line of defence.
If Eriksen leaves would you play Ndombele as an AM leaving Dier as a DM and Winks Central etc?

 

[JCRD]

In.

But he hasn't got much time to turn this around. I said a few weeks back I'd like to see him given until Watford.

Need to see a minimum of 4 points from the next two games.

I do fear if we lose at Brighton we may well see a mutual termination of his contract.

Need a convincing win with quality on Sat.

Not picking on you as this happens a fair bit. where a manager is nearing the end and its like oh he has one game to save his job... Say we do get four points, but we lose a couple after - then what? Thats why I dont think its a case of oh win next game or youre out kind of scenario

Thee squad is an issue for Poch and giving him say two games to win doesnt really solve the issue - the only way to solve it is time... which will then allow us to get one or two more in particularly full backs etc

 

[DCSPUR64]

Poch has to turn us around, if he leaves now, he will probably fail at RM, United, Juve, etc. He has been the catalyst of our recent success, something we have not seen for a long time. So lets all hope we continue to sing the MP, you're magic, we know and COYS