- Jan 7, 2009
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@SpurrificLol man, he was very good when he has feaured in apart Chelsea
@SpurrificLol man, he was very good when he has feaured in apart Chelsea
If he's the devil or not it will be seen.
But I agree Levy has destroyed the work we've done this years with this appointment.
Mourinho is the complete opposite of what we've been building.
We may win an FA Cup but I don't see a prosperous future for the club with Mourinho.
I feel it as a short term move to win anything at all cost
There is one thing that massively bugs me about this... If he is so out of shape and unhealthy then how did he pass the medical?
Don't know and it's irrelevant to what I'm arguing. In THIS game, we lost the midfield battle in the 1st half but won it in the 2nd, all with a change in personnel.I'm not gonna go over the same things again, so let me ask you this.
Have we ever played with GLC and Moura and 5 at the back from the start in these last games??? I know we did. Then did we perform like yesterday's second half or did we lose the midfield like in the first half???
I've tried arguing the logic with you, but you can't seem to understand it. So I've tried using a logic exercise, but you don't want to.Don't know and it's irrelevant to what I'm arguing. In THIS game, we lost the midfield battle in the 1st half but won it in the 2nd, all with a change in personnel.
The fact that you can't argue the logic of what I'm saying, but need to ask superfluous questions, speaks volumes.
True, but GLC had a better setup to work with. Not denying Ndombele had a bad game, but he suffered from a terrible tactic. Most of them did. But Skipp and him the most.
You've offered no logic whatsoever, you've piggy backed lilywhite, and I've presented the counter argument to that. So your fallback is to point at other games that have no bearing on how this one played out. That's not a logic exercise, it's a scramble to eke out some relevance from the irrelevant.I've tried arguing the logic with you, but you can't seem to understand it. So I've tried using a logic exercise, but you don't want to.
So I won't bother discussing this any further
Nail. Firmly. On. Head.Couldn't disagree more.
First Half :
Ndombele was standing near the center circle, neither moving forward or backward to receive the ball. There were 2 Burnley players cutting his passing lanes. But then, did he move ? nope. With no option to play ball through from back, our CBs kept hitting long to no one up top and giving possession away. Skipp was cutoff from him.
So as Jose said ,'we didnt have a midfield in first half' - 100%
Second half :
Moment the ref blew the whistle, GLC was on the move. He never stopped running. Initially Burnley started with same 2 players closer to GLC, but he dragged them out of place and moved into space to receive the ball. Eventually, Burnley players didnt want to get dragged out too much, stayed in their position and let GLC dictate play. This was that easy. All Ndombele had to do was, some off the ball movement to space and be ready to receive the ball and pass and start playing football.
This was nothing to do with going to back 4. This is just down on Tanguy not moving his arse enough.
Tbh we've been some shade of bad since the start of 18/19. We had a ton of wins in the first half of the season but the performances were rarely anywhere near what we'd seen in the previous 2-3 seasons. So many 50/50 games won by a single goal or gifted by our opponents missing sitters.Wouldn’t really call our demise over a 15 months the blink of an eye.
We’ve been bad since early 2019.
I don’t think that’s true. I think that’s an unproven hypothesis that Pochettino loving Spurs fans have invented lately. There is no objective reason that’s apparent that possession would result in less running.Conserve energy?? You run less when you are in possession than when you are not. The only players that run less with how he sets us up are the CBs. The rest have to run more, specially the forwards.
Couldn't disagree more.
First Half :
Ndombele was standing near the center circle, neither moving forward or backward to receive the ball. There were 2 Burnley players cutting his passing lanes. But then, did he move ? nope. With no option to play ball through from back, our CBs kept hitting long to no one up top and giving possession away. Skipp was cutoff from him.
So as Jose said ,'we didnt have a midfield in first half' - 100%
Second half :
Moment the ref blew the whistle, GLC was on the move. He never stopped running. Initially Burnley started with same 2 players closer to GLC, but he dragged them out of place and moved into space to receive the ball. Eventually, Burnley players didnt want to get dragged out too much, stayed in their position and let GLC dictate play. This was that easy. All Ndombele had to do was, some off the ball movement to space and be ready to receive the ball and pass and start playing football.
This was nothing to do with going to back 4. This is just down on Tanguy not moving his arse enough.
Manure. Keep drinking that Kool-Aid, chap.I see Mourinho has successfully diverted his blame to Ndombele with some fans.
It was not the 5CBs against fucking Burnley. It was Ndombele.
Ok. He should've kept the 5CBs for the second half then
In my book, it was a dreadful performance by all of them & isolating one player from that 1st half performance as culpable, is shortsighted at the very least. TN played his part in that terrible first half, but I could pull up more than one player that played equally as bad, if not worse in that 1st half, but hey it's easy to pull apart a record signing who hasn't started well at the club because everybody else is at least trying, whereas TN isn't.He offered nothing at all during the game his role was to carry the ball and link things up but he did nothing. Tactics, the players have to play., offer some heart and application he sold everyone short. Its not defendable.
In my book it was a dreadful performance by Ndombele and whether you like it or not he has to provide more for the team, Of course Mourinho had to change it at half time because the midfield had no control of the game and he was let down by the person who had to be key to our performance and having any control in the game. As soon as Lo Celso comes on starts linking with AlI the game changes.
If Ndombele stays on we lose the game as he was incapable of gettiing on the ball and giving us some sort of meaningful possession
It depends on what type of possession game you are playing tbh - if you are playing the fluid Man City possession game, then sure it's plenty of running and finding space, etc - If, However, you are playing the slow build-up type of possession game, then it's far less running about, more probing sort of stuff which inherently is less running about, also if you play a high defensive line and play your possession in the opponents half then cutting off half the pitch also affects the amount of running. So in reality, it's subjective by nature.I don’t think that’s true. I think that’s an unproven hypothesis that Pochettino loving Spurs fans have invented lately. There is no objective reason that’s apparent that possession would result in less running.
I see Mourinho has successfully diverted his blame to Ndombele with some fans.
It was not the 5CBs against fucking Burnley. It was Ndombele.
Of course it depends on circumstances. Which is what I alluded to in the first place.It depends on what type of possession game you are playing tbh - if you are playing the fluid Man City possession game, then sure it's plenty of running and finding space, etc - If, However, you are playing the slow build-up type of possession game, then it's far less running about, more probing sort of stuff which inherently is less running about, also if you play a high defensive line and play your possession in the opponents half then cutting off half the pitch also affects the amount of running. So in reality, it's subjective by nature.
Yep, it was not the 5CBs, it was playing with 10 men and one static passenger.
I've a lot of respect for you mr L, as you've obviously got a handle on the dynamics of a game, but I have to disagree with your assessment.In my book, it was a dreadful performance by all of them & isolating one player from that 1st half performance as culpable, is shortsighted at the very least. TN played his part in that terrible first half, but I could pull up more than one player that played equally as bad, if not worse in that 1st half, but hey it's easy to pull apart a record signing who hasn't started well at the club because everybody else is at least trying, whereas TN isn't.
Tactics were some of the worst I've seen from a Tottenham manager - even dim Tim had a system that players understood. How you can easily ignore the tactics in that game tells me that you have only one agenda here and that is to lambast TN for delivering the same shit that every other player delivered in that half.
Let's look at the changes JM made and not just the players -
1st half - Jose lines up with a 3 at the back, but because of the deep defensive line, it invites the home side to sit in our half and that back 3 becomes a back 5 of all central defenders, who with their backs to the wall incorporates a clear the lines mentality, that means long balls bypassing the midfield and returning it back to the home team, clearing into touch or a scrambled clearance that is anything but useful for midfielders to work from, so from the back 3/5 it's chaotic, evidence of that is clear with Sanchez struggling under pressure and in an unorthodox system, as well as Dier & Alderweireld. Our makeshift fullbacks are there to provide width and or support to a midfield two. Due to the pressure of the system, we are playing in, they cannot push out enough, therefore that leaves an exposed midfield of N'Dombele and Skipp having to work against the home teams midfield 4 - Their defensive 4 does not need to contend with Lamela, Alli or Bergwijn, as they are not influencing the game at this point due to having to sit deep & the only one with pace to worry them is Bergwijn. Basically, Burnley have men spare to provide an overload when needed and because of our shape & defensive line. There aren't many midfield duos that would perform any better in that situation - it's a 2 vs 4 during Burnley's attacking phase. With the mentality we had yesterday, we can be thankful that Burnley is not that great at breaking teams down. HT 1-0.
2nd half - Changes have to be made, not just players either and Jose, rightly sees this (the bleeding obvious). On comes Moura & Lo Celso for TN & OS. So what changed? The introduction of Lo Celso and Moura? The tactics? or both? A lot of folk have trouble dissecting this. So let's look at the defence - No longer a back 3/5 it's now a flat back 4, with fullbacks given instructions to defend 1st, support 2nd and a bit more license to move into space when the opportunity arises. The defensive line pushed up to ease the pressure of the defence and also bringing them closer to the midfield of Dier, Lo Celso & Lamela, thus giving them more options to play a simple pass and with Alli & Bergwijn operating in forward positions. With more numbers in midfield, we are able to compete and better their midfield. Now the tables are reversed because we have better options to control the midfield. We have fullbacks able to move into space and play more supporting roles, We have Dier sitting in the midfield shielding the defense (and playing one of his best games in the DM position for some time), we have Lo Celso, who with confidence gaining is making some wonderful trademark runs and passing is crisp and accurate and we have Lamela being busy as the most attacking out of the 3 midfield players at this point, with better finishers, we win this game. The point is though that you can blame players not performing and rightly so, but you can't just jump on the bandwagon and throw one player under the bus, when the answer is clearly the system, which would have yielded the exact same result had it been Skipp & Lo Celso in there. I mean if you are going to trash N'Dombele, then the same needs to happen to Skipp. FT 1-1.
Ultimately, the fault always mostly falls at the feet of the manager because he is the one that has to make sure he sends the team out with the right system. You only need to look at JM's predecessor, Poch to know that no matter how many great players you have, if you set them up to fail with the wrong system/tactics then 9/10 times they'll fuck it up. I will most def support Jose in his thoughts about TN, in public? No. For yesterday's 1st half performance - definitely not. That one is all on the manager and that's what pisses me off most, is that he put the team in an impossible position and then used TN as the easy target. Sure he didn't/doesn't work hard enough, but yesterday wasn't one of those games to single him out alone.
I see Mourinho has successfully diverted his blame to Ndombele with some fans.
It was not the 5CBs against fucking Burnley. It was Ndombele.
Ok. He should've kept the 5CBs for the second half then