Player Watch: Tanguy Ndombele

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
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No one has shouted anyone out to be fair. It's been a range of posts explaining how he was wrong in a respectful manner.

And again why is "a person of colour" relevant? It's almost patronising to suggest that given that the person raising the issue is black that it shouldn't be disagreed with.
I think you've mischaracterized his point. What I perceive him to be saying is that a POC (somewhat incidental) raised an issue that he may perhaps have a heightened sensitivity for and it seems to have been objected to rather defensively and dismissively. The use of the term 'beast' is often quite fair in terms of sport but when utilized for a POC it is often to the implied exclusion of more intellectual traits. And in the matter of Ndombele his most outstanding qualities are those of the more intellectual variety eg quickness of thought, understanding of space/time/angle, decision making, etc. But he does bring the physicals too.

I feel that 'beast' necessarily focuses on the physical. It is rare that a player is called a beast for their intellectual qualities, no? I can imagine a Pirlo having 'beasted' a game with 2 assists, a tsunami of brilliant passes, and a FK goal but it would be a rare. Now imagine a female doctoral graduate of Oxford and the first descriptor anyone in this forum can come up with is related to her looks. It's diminishing.

That said, the utilization of the term is part of the lexicon of sports and in the case of Ndom I'm not sure I have too much of a problem with it personally because he can 'beast' a game. And just to add to the tumult he can be lazy fekker too. Yeah, I said it and I've watched most of his top flight games and, incidentally, also happen to be black. But I know I'm being fair in my assessment with no preconceived notions nor generalizations to or from any other player that looks like him. I can understand the Modric comparisons but he's not quite that type of central-to-everything type of MFer. With no comparison to style he's more Iniesta than Xavi. He may have that in his locker or may develop it from here but he's not displayed it thus far.

For me it wasn't the initial use of the term 'beast' in this thread that was a problem. It was the response to @punkisback point that was unsavory. Which I think was the point @muppetman was making in his post.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
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I agree that anyone who is praising Ndombele's physicality and calling him 'big, strong, powerful' is blind or lazy. The guy has the physique and gait of Andy Reid. However, he's got a brilliant football mind and a wonderful, unorthodox passing style and vision - that's where his brilliance lies.
So true, it's so awkward. He hit GLC and Harry with two return balls just beyond the center circle with them in the dead center of the pitch. Both were surprised it seems. I can understand Harry's surprise as we've not really played with the ball in that area except when Dembele was here and dribbling there but GLC wouldn't have been familiar with that. We usually pass through that area to the hole for Dele or CE. I think Poch might have gotten scared seeing the ball passed there, so centrally.
 

BringBack_leGin

Audere est facere
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20,880
I think you've mischaracterized his point. What I perceive him to be saying is that a POC (somewhat incidental) raised an issue that he may perhaps have a heightened sensitivity for and it seems to have been objected to rather defensively and dismissively. The use of the term 'beast' is often quite fair in terms of sport but when utilized for a POC it is often to the implied exclusion of more intellectual traits. And in the matter of Ndombele his most outstanding qualities are those of the more intellectual variety eg quickness of thought, understanding of space/time/angle, decision making, etc. But he does bring the physicals too.

I feel that 'beast' necessarily focuses on the physical. It is rare that a player is called a beast for their intellectual qualities, no? I can imagine a Pirlo having 'beasted' a game with 2 assists, a tsunami of brilliant passes, and a FK goal but it would be a rare. Now imagine a female doctoral graduate of Oxford and the first descriptor anyone in this forum can come up with is related to her looks. It's diminishing.

That said, the utilization of the term is part of the lexicon of sports and in the case of Ndom I'm not sure I have too much of a problem with it personally because he can 'beast' a game. And just to add to the tumult he can be lazy fekker too. Yeah, I said it and I've watched most of his top flight games and, incidentally, also happen to be black. But I know I'm being fair in my assessment with no preconceived notions nor generalizations to or from any other player that looks like him. I can understand the Modric comparisons but he's not quite that type of central-to-everything type of MFer. With no comparison to style he's more Iniesta than Xavi. He may have that in his locker or may develop it from here but he's not displayed it thus far.

For me it wasn't the initial use of the term 'beast' in this thread that was a problem. It was the response to @punkisback point that was unsavory. Which I think was the point @muppetman was making in his post.
As someone (who also very much likes @punkisback as a poster) who disagreed with punk’s initial post, I have to say that this is a fantastic point which has made me more aware of the potentially additional layer to thus discussion. Admittedly I hadn’t realised that punk is a POC, I don’t know if my initial response would have been different, but I can at least no recognise that there was a facet to the argument which I hadn’t considered.
 

heelspurs

Le filet mignon est un bastion de rosbif
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As someone (who also very much likes @punkisback as a poster) who disagreed with punk’s initial post, I have to say that this is a fantastic point which has made me more aware of the potentially additional layer to thus discussion. Admittedly I hadn’t realised that punk is a POC, I don’t know if my initial response would have been different, but I can at least no recognise that there was a facet to the argument which I hadn’t considered.
And I believe this is covered in this post
It's good to talk.
Which is why I hate 'shouting down' of posters. Different perspectives allow us to reflect. Reflection is a wonderful thing. I'd rather assume I'm wrong and work my way toward being right. The unexamined life and all that...
 

punkisback

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2,261
Actually your race IS irrelevant IN THE CONTEXT of this discussion. It has been proven on here that the term "beast" has been used indiscriminately to describe a number of different players for a variety of different attributes. I use Hazard as a prime example, no one in their right mind would use the term "beast" for him when describing his physical attributes, it's used as a description of his insane skillset when he's firing on all cylinders.

The fact of the matter is that the issue is not the adjective being used, or more to the point the intent with which it is being used, but your perception of the intent. You feel it is subconscious racism but the, imo, is arrogance of the highest order. You're stating that anyone White has subconscious racist tendencies when you know absolutely nothing about that person. Actually it's not you but the links you have quoted. I've referred to any number of players as being in beast mode and have never thought it was purely for physical attributes, it was more a colloquial term used to describe when a player has elevated himself above the rest of the players on the pitch, be it physically or in terms of skill.

You say you don't believe anyone here is being racist and I believe that you consciously believe this, but subconsciously you feel that there is an undercurrent of racism there, otherwise why make an issue of it? That's the feeling I'm getting from your assertions anyway.

The steps that many people in this country are taking to eradicate racism are great to see, but you need to be careful that it's not taken to the extreme where you are seeing a racist comment in every innocent remark made, that way lies strife and even greater division, as you are imposing an intent that, more often than not, isn't there. I use the term you in the general sense too, not specifically directing the above to you as an individual.
Hi sorry, I did actually point out that my race was relevant in this context; it was someone else who claimed it was irrelevant. Nor did I say that anyone who was white was being subconsciously racist; feel free to look back and see where I had claimed this.
However as a whole society is inherently institutionally prejudice and this is something we cannot argue with; people of all races can be. As an example there is a statistical fact that your CV is less likely to be considered for a post if you have a foreign sounding name than a British name; this is a fact that anyone can look up. I've had people tell me from my background that the music I like isn't normal for people like us! It does work every way. There is the caste system in India where people are automatically classed due to their skin colour and their families occupation.

I am not seeing racism in every context; however in the context of football; the use of the word beast to reduce players, especially black players to their physical skills and discount intellect and technique is a potential prejudice if used in that context. It is not specifically the word beast but things that infer a lack of intellect and a focus on mindless physicality. Back to the article I had posted previously on "pace and power", you can see how commentators and spectators predicted how a team would played based on their own prejudices:

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/6/19/17480036/sadio-mane-senegal-poland-world-cup

This isn't a small issue in isolation; some people may take offence to being called beast, others may not, whilst some may feel complimented even; it is for the individual themselves to decide. However this whilst it may seem like a small symptom of the whole issue of racism in sport or society this can lead into how we establish subconscious bias or prejudice based on the characteristics we expect from people because of their race and how we categorise people into what they can or can't do.

We have seen that there is a disproportionate lack of BAME coaches given chances to manager given the footballers that are now retired and of age to manage. In the past we have seen quotes from managers and owners:

Ron Noades
The black players at this club lend the side a lot of skill and flair, but you also need white players to balance things up and give the team some brains and common sense.
Ron Atkinson
"He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick n*****"
This is a process and system of speech/language and unconsciously does promote racial bias.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to consider this, I'm posting this from a state of calmness and am not stating that anyone is racist or is using racist terms; nor am I spouting out bollocks or looking to be argumentative. I'd like for people to consider my post and read it for my experiences and what I have seen and heard over my lifetime. I'm not the judge of what is racist or non racist; this is just one long opinion!

Anyway thanks guys!
Back on topic, Tanguy is one hell of a player and I'm glad we have him!
 

Danny1

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Dec 6, 2006
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2,825
Just watched that compilation video and he really is such a talented player. If we can harness his natural ability and work on his fitness day by day he could easily become the best CM in the premier league. He has the wonderful ability of moving the ball into space with his first touch that buys him an extra few seconds to pick out his pass.

He does resemble Yaya Toure a bit I must admit which is a huge compliment to him as Yaya was one of the best around for a long time. Similarly, when Yaya came to England people thought he would be defensive minded and he ended up being an incredibly good player going forward, and it appears the same with our Ndombele. Play him with Lo Celso and a DM and we are onto a winner.
 

wrd

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Aug 22, 2014
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5,004
Just watched that compilation video and he really is such a talented player. If we can harness his natural ability and work on his fitness day by day he could easily become the best CM in the premier league. He has the wonderful ability of moving the ball into space with his first touch that buys him an extra few seconds to pick out his pass.

He does resemble Yaya Toure a bit I must admit which is a huge compliment to him as Yaya was one of the best around for a long time. Similarly, when Yaya came to England people thought he would be defensive minded and he ended up being an incredibly good player going forward, and it appears the same with our Ndombele. Play him with Lo Celso and a DM and we are onto a winner.
Fucking love Yaya, my favourite non-spurs prem player ever. If Ndombele can get to those heights I'd be overjoyed, Yaya wasn't even in the prem until his late 20's also. I'd say Yaya had more power about him and his long range passing was ridiculous.

What I love about Ndombele is body swivel, I swear he can contort his body ridiculous angles to scope out a pass.
 

punkisback

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Messages
2,261
Fucking love Yaya, my favourite non-spurs prem player ever. If Ndombele can get to those heights I'd be overjoyed, Yaya wasn't even in the prem until his late 20's also. I'd say Yaya had more power about him and his long range passing was ridiculous.

What I love about Ndombele is body swivel, I swear he can contort his body ridiculous angles to scope out a pass.
I remember that one season he had, over 20 goals from CM; it was insane! Shame he deteriorated so quickly but he was amazing!
 

Ionman34

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Jun 1, 2011
Messages
5,739
Hi sorry, I did actually point out that my race was relevant in this context; it was someone else who claimed it was irrelevant. Nor did I say that anyone who was white was being subconsciously racist; feel free to look back and see where I had claimed this.
However as a whole society is inherently institutionally prejudice and this is something we cannot argue with; people of all races can be. As an example there is a statistical fact that your CV is less likely to be considered for a post if you have a foreign sounding name than a British name; this is a fact that anyone can look up. I've had people tell me from my background that the music I like isn't normal for people like us! It does work every way. There is the caste system in India where people are automatically classed due to their skin colour and their families occupation.

I am not seeing racism in every context; however in the context of football; the use of the word beast to reduce players, especially black players to their physical skills and discount intellect and technique is a potential prejudice if used in that context. It is not specifically the word beast but things that infer a lack of intellect and a focus on mindless physicality. Back to the article I had posted previously on "pace and power", you can see how commentators and spectators predicted how a team would played based on their own prejudices:

https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/2018/6/19/17480036/sadio-mane-senegal-poland-world-cup

This isn't a small issue in isolation; some people may take offence to being called beast, others may not, whilst some may feel complimented even; it is for the individual themselves to decide. However this whilst it may seem like a small symptom of the whole issue of racism in sport or society this can lead into how we establish subconscious bias or prejudice based on the characteristics we expect from people because of their race and how we categorise people into what they can or can't do.

We have seen that there is a disproportionate lack of BAME coaches given chances to manager given the footballers that are now retired and of age to manage. In the past we have seen quotes from managers and owners:

Ron Noades

Ron Atkinson

This is a process and system of speech/language and unconsciously does promote racial bias.

I would like to thank you for taking the time to consider this, I'm posting this from a state of calmness and am not stating that anyone is racist or is using racist terms; nor am I spouting out bollocks or looking to be argumentative. I'd like for people to consider my post and read it for my experiences and what I have seen and heard over my lifetime. I'm not the judge of what is racist or non racist; this is just one long opinion!

Anyway thanks guys!
Back on topic, Tanguy is one hell of a player and I'm glad we have him!
Just to be clear here, there isn't a single thing you've written or quoted about inherent prejudice that I disagree with, so I won't go into depth with a reply on that. However, I will reassert the point that I made earlier, you seem to think that using the term "beast" when referencing black players is denigrating them. The issue I have with this is that you are imposing your own interpretation onto people you don't know, so you have no idea what their mindset is, either consciously or subconsciously, you don't even know their colour. If it was a POC would this still be seen as subconscious prejudice?

TBH, on a personal level, I don't see black players, white players, Asian players etc, I see football players, each having their own predominant attributes that, when they are fully on song, can be encompassed in that particular adjective. The Spurs player that I have admired most over the last 20 or so years is Ledley King, for me the best CH of his generation. At the time I never described his performances as "beast mode" because the term wasn't in use. Would I use it now? Absolutely. King had everything, but his greatest attribute was cerebral, one of the best readers of the game I've ever seen. Whilst he had the physical attributes they were secondary to his mental capacity. Having said that, his physical attributes were amazing too, need I go further than the recovery tackle on Robben?

So, from my own personal perspective, the colour, race or nationality of a player doesn't even register when considering his attributes, just his ability. I can categorically state that there is no prejudice, either conscious or subconsciously. I can only speak for myself with regard to this because, as with yourself, I don't know anyone else on here enough to assume what their conscious or subconscious thinking may be.

This is why I say you should examine your own interpretation first, rather than making assumptions about others. Whilst there most definitely is inherent racism within our society, it doesn't mean that it is prevalent, nor do quotes from managers from the past reflect on the mindset of us in the present.
 

wrd

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Aug 22, 2014
Messages
5,004
I remember that one season he had, over 20 goals from CM; it was insane! Shame he deteriorated so quickly but he was amazing!
That's what I mean I think he might have been 30/31 then. Long way for Ndombele to go so I'd love to see him follow that trajectory.

Some of the goals from that season:



But he had everything, incredible shooting technique, passing was unbelievable especially long range, power to dribble through teams. People always talk about Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes as the best prem midfielders but for me if you were to say who produced the highest rated season for a CM it's Yaya all day long after that 20 goal season.
 

Ronwol196061

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Apr 9, 2018
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1,978
Champions league final isn't nowhere
You want to quantify that's ok,I'd rather qualify.
I'm not proud of most of our performances last season,including the CL run.
For me it's about sustainability.
The final was totally the jewel of our ineptness last season
 

Gilzeanking

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May 7, 2005
Messages
4,920
I hate the horses , the greyhounds , Formula One...well all the formulas , Marathons, Tour de France and athletic track events.. Oh yeah and the wallys going round in circles in the Velodrome .. but I'm not racist :shifty:
 

Ron Burgundy

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Jun 19, 2008
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He's just such a good player. Touch, skill, strength but possibly most off all, his short passing.

It's exactly what we've been missing. What a player he is. I really hope the side starts settling from here. He could be so special in the right environment.

Sissoko's main role in the team should essentially be to patrol the midfield to (i) help the defence, but (ii) to make sure Tanguy can do whatever the hell he wants
 

SugarRay

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Jul 6, 2011
Messages
7,199
I like the idea of Sissoko being the temporary minder for Tanguy. Such a shame we can’t have a fully fit Wanyama anymore, he’d be perfect
 
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