Player Watch - Steven Bergwijn

RichieS

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Dec 23, 2004
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10,282
There's an article in the guardian about how Bayern Munich's Muller does that to perfection (finds space). He would be the perfect addition and compliment to Dele. It's such an underrated skill and is lethal. Obviously not on the cards but I can dream of Dele and Kane through the middle, Muller playing off the right and Son or Bergwijn off the left. Pace, movement, intelligence. Doesn't fit our system right now but God that would be good to watch.

Love the way Dele can do that, at his best it's unstoppable.

Edit: to bring the thread back on track a little - if Bergwijn and Dele can find that type of understanding playing together with bergwijn running off the left...that could be fun.
Indeed, they coined a new phrase to describe Müller - "raumdeuter", meaning "space investigator" or "space interpreter". Now you mention it, I do wonder whether Bayern might have had a look at Dele as a replacement.

Whichever way I look at it, I don't think you can get Bergwijn, Son and Dele in the same team.
 

wrd

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Indeed, they coined a new phrase to describe Müller - "raumdeuter", meaning "space investigator" or "space interpreter". Now you mention it, I do wonder whether Bayern might have had a look at Dele as a replacement.

Whichever way I look at it, I don't think you can get Bergwijn, Son and Dele in the same team.
Not if you want both Lo Celso and Ndombele without sacrificing some solidity in midfield.
 

bubble07

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I think JM will eventually go with a 4-3-3 and Bergwijn has a great chance to be one of the wide forwards. He will rotate with dele. We just need a world class dm
 

Timberwolf

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Sorry mate, don't agree with this at all.

Nkoudou wasn't given a look in because he was crap, Janssen was given ample opportunities but he wasn't scoring and not even affecting matches and therefore his head dropped and became pretty useless, Wimmer done well in his first season when he deputised for Jan but when he was given chances he failed to impress, in fact you can pretty much say the same thing about Edwards, Onomah, and Carter Vickers, they just weren't good enough - KWP I'll give you because I thought he was treated unfairly after some pretty solid displays in his correct position.

The fact is our first team was very good in it's peak and it would have taken an exceptional talent to come in and claim a place in the fist eleven, barring KWP can't blame anyone for that can you?
Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
 
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Dirtysanchez6

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302
Well he is nowhere near slow! Change of pace is one thing. I think his problem is his decision making, and by time he makes his mind up it is too late. He is an instinctive player, and I personally nflirve he is up there with tgr best when he plays the role or behind Kane of couple seasons ago. I think that is his position.
Dele is slow it’s one of the main flaws in his game not a fault of his own of course! How it’s highlighted is the amount of times he has been played in a wider area he is extremely slow compared to other players who play out wide aka your traditional winger! Maybe he wouldn’t look as slow in a cm area but he certainly isn’t quick
 

Dirtysanchez6

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May 15, 2018
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302
Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
This is completely spot on 👏
 

Shadydan

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Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
Great post however the Mane thing was down to wages - at the time we weren't paying what we pay now - same for Wijnaldum.
 

bat-chain

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Jan 4, 2009
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Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
This is so true it genuinely hurts.
 

pedrodelawasp

Morton season ticket holder, Spurs fan from afar
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Messages
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I think the discussion of Dele's pace could be enhanced by utilising a slightly more nuanced scale - players are not divisible in to two groups of 'slow' or 'fast'.

Now, where does he rate on the following scale:

Slug ---> Sloth ---> Koala ---> Overweight Bulldog ---> Chihuahua ---> Tabby ---> Terrier ---> Whippet ---> Greyhound ---> Cheetah
 

Locotoro

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Messages
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I think the discussion of Dele's pace could be enhanced by utilising a slightly more nuanced scale - players are not divisible in to two groups of 'slow' or 'fast'.

Now, where does he rate on the following scale:

Slug ---> Sloth ---> Koala ---> Overweight Bulldog ---> Chihuahua ---> Tabby ---> Terrier ---> Whippet ---> Greyhound ---> Cheetah
Off the ball = whippet
On the ball = koala
 

Mr Pink

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Messages
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Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
Top, top post.

I remember calling it 'riding the crest of a wave'.

Sadly we didn't. Its the one area Levy falls down in. When there's an opportunity to kick on, given the successful platform we had built to attract the real quality, we chose not to. I was in disbelief then.

Instead we went second tier.
 

Frozen_Waffles

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Jan 26, 2005
Messages
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Yeah, I think of the players mentioned most of them simply weren't good enough and it's been proven by their lack of success at future clubs. I don't think we broke Janssen - I think he was just a slow, fairly average player who had a great 6 months in the Eredivise, whereas players like Wimmer and Nkoudou, showed flashes of potential, but never really took their chances when it mattered (and have done fuck all since leaving).

I think we got the absolute most we could from Chadli, who was clearly a useful player, but wasn't going to take as any higher (and was the obvious weak link in that Belgian side). Ultimately we upgraded on him massively with Son. Maybe we could've persuaded him to stick around as backup but I can only assume he wanted first team football.

Mason had heart but was limited. Bentaleb was talented but inconsistent and had a poor attitude. Townsend is a one trick pony and has found his level. I feel like all these players left for a reason and our best seasons (15/16, 16/17) were largely because we got rid of them and replaced them with better players, not hindered by their loss.

I don't think it makes sense to question our lack of development during those years when that was the very period in which we massively improved on the pitch and should've won the league. For me the problem lies in who bought rather than how we developed them. In 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19 we should've been more ambitious. Those seasons were our window to take a real leap of faith and give Poch some real money. I know we had the stadium to worry about and that's a really legitimate concern, but in football opportunity cost is also a huge thing and if you miss your chance, you might not get it again for another 20 years. 15/16 and 16/17 was our chance to sieze the day. Instead we played it safe and missed our shot at glory. Our squad was so good that the only way to really improve it was to spend big on proven quality, but instead we chose to skimp on potential for which there wasn't space in the team.

If, instead of buying Sissoko on the last day, we'd really pushed for Sadio Mane (who Poch wanted) earlier in the window, we probably could've got him. Things like that. I reckon if Levy had just had one big splurge and spent, say, an extra £60 million on a couple of real top tier players early in the widow, that may well have made the difference and pushed us over the line in the way that Van Dijk and Alison did for Liverpool. Obviously there are no guarantees, but that was the time to go for broke like we did for Dybala last summer.

Easy to say with hindsight but Levy will end up spending a lot more now trying to rebuild this squad than he would've had to spend back then.
Although I agree with everything you've said the big problem was selling the players, we didn't sell them quickly enough. Wanyama, janssen, nkoudou were sold a year or two later than they should have been and we didn't invest in intelligent buys, because our squad was bulging with average players on high wages.

We used to regularly make cheaper signings (normally young prospects) and for some reason we stopped doing this.

Alli, dier, davies, trippier etc and in this time we didn't (or poch didn't) trust our youth team.

It's not the big signings that we lacked but the continued investment of young/intelligent cheaper signings. We stopped doing it and that was our undoing IMO. If we had sold quicker we would have invested. That was the problem.
 

coy-spurs1882

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Although I agree with everything you've said the big problem was selling the players, we didn't sell them quickly enough. Wanyama, janssen, nkoudou were sold a year or two later than they should have been and we didn't invest in intelligent buys, because our squad was bulging with average players on high wages.

We used to regularly make cheaper signings (normally young prospects) and for some reason we stopped doing this.

Alli, dier, davies, trippier etc and in this time we didn't (or poch didn't) trust our youth team.

It's not the big signings that we lacked but the continued investment of young/intelligent cheaper signings. We stopped doing it and that was our undoing IMO. If we had sold quicker we would have invested. That was the problem.
that's why they were so hard to be sold...of course wanyama had injury issues
 

dontcallme

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Although I agree with everything you've said the big problem was selling the players, we didn't sell them quickly enough. Wanyama, janssen, nkoudou were sold a year or two later than they should have been and we didn't invest in intelligent buys, because our squad was bulging with average players on high wages.

We used to regularly make cheaper signings (normally young prospects) and for some reason we stopped doing this.

Alli, dier, davies, trippier etc and in this time we didn't (or poch didn't) trust our youth team.

It's not the big signings that we lacked but the continued investment of young/intelligent cheaper signings. We stopped doing it and that was our undoing IMO. If we had sold quicker we would have invested. That was the problem.
Yep, always more difficult to sell a player down than up. If the players mentioned performed well and we sold them to teams of a similar or better quality than us then selling would have been easy.

But once you look to sell to teams lower than you then you get players taking potential wage cuts which makes selling them harder.
 

Timberwolf

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Although I agree with everything you've said the big problem was selling the players, we didn't sell them quickly enough. Wanyama, janssen, nkoudou were sold a year or two later than they should have been and we didn't invest in intelligent buys, because our squad was bulging with average players on high wages.

We used to regularly make cheaper signings (normally young prospects) and for some reason we stopped doing this.

Alli, dier, davies, trippier etc and in this time we didn't (or poch didn't) trust our youth team.

It's not the big signings that we lacked but the continued investment of young/intelligent cheaper signings. We stopped doing it and that was our undoing IMO. If we had sold quicker we would have invested. That was the problem.
We did make cheap signings - they just didn't really pay off.

N'koudou, N'jie, Wimmer and Foyth were all brought in as a continuation of the same policy of buying cheap, yet none of them made it in the same way the players you listed did. Foyth is a bit of an outlier as he's still young and very talented, but he certainly hasn't been a roaring success.

The problem is, once your squad reaches a certain quality and you stop selling your best players, it becomes extremely difficult to blood young, cheap talent unless the player proves to be truly exceptional. There simply isn't space in the team.

Once Alli, Davies, Trippier and Dier were successes and we had top quality at CB, ST, WF we effectively blocked our own cheap signings. And we were a damn good team at the time so you can't really blame Poch for not rotating, especially if he didn't feel the quality was there.

The exact same thing happens at practically every top club. Chelsea had reams of talented youngsters on their fringes for years but they couldn't get a game due to the quality of their first 11. Sure, Chelsea may have been wrong to get rid of KdB, Salah and Lukaku, but they were too busy winning titles to give a shit.

We needed to change tact and spend a bit bigger on a select few high quality players to push us over the line. Still no guarantee of success (see Soldado) but more sensible than last minute panic buys like Sissoko or gambles like Janssen.


That said, we could do with a few smart cheap purchases now that our team is in transition again. Some quick, young attacking fullbacks would make a lot of sense.
 
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double0

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Messages
12,880
Bergwijn is a good player though I do find it amusing how many people advocate the change of system to 433 with Bergwijn Kane Son up front a midfield of DM Ndombele Lo Celso and no place for Alli in fact Alli is so type cast to 4231 its criminal.

Personally Alli's in ahead of Bergwijn or has to be in that 3 man midfield he is such a productive player in terms of goals assists and workrate...competitions great.
 

Timberwolf

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Bergwijn is a good player though I do find it amusing how many people advocate the change of system to 433 with Bergwijn Kane Son up front a midfield of DM Ndombele Lo Celso and no place for Alli in fact Alli is so type cast to 4231 its criminal.

Personally Alli's in ahead of Bergwijn or has to be in that 3 man midfield he is such a productive player in terms of goals assists and workrate...competitions great.
It's a fair point - Alli is one of the top scoring midfielders in the league this year and has proven output. Would it be wise to drop him for Bergwijn? Maybe not.

However it's also worth noting that most of Dele's goals this season came in the brief spell following Jose's arrival in which he was played as a second striker, just behind Kane. This is the same role in which he scored the majority of his goals in his first 2 seasons at the club.

It's the classic Dele conundrum: he's good for about 15-20 goals a season if you play him as a 9 1/2 behind Kane and effectively build the team around hum but you sacrifice a lot of possession and defensive stability (all of our games were 3-2 rollercoasters during that run) which is why both Poch and Jose moved away from this style.

However, move Dele out wide, play him as a traditional no.10, or deeper in midfield and he often flatters to deceive. He has moments of magic but too often slows the game down, overplays, gives the ball away cheaply and his goalscoring/assisting is diminished. He's still a good footballer but regularly frustrates and generally puts in a lot of 6/10 performances.

And that, in essence, is why I'd prefer us to play Bergwijn if we go 4-3-3 or a similar system - I think he provides more balance and is better suited to it than Dele.

I think unless Dele either seriously knuckles down and fights to improve the weaknesses in his game, or we build the team around him, he should no longer be a guaranteed starter.
 

Ledley's Right Foot

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Messages
266
It's a fair point - Alli is one of the top scoring midfielders in the league this year and has proven output. Would it be wise to drop him for Bergwijn? Maybe not.

However it's also worth noting that most of Dele's goals this season came in the brief spell following Jose's arrival in which he was played as a second striker, just behind Kane. This is the same role in which he scored the majority of his goals in his first 2 seasons at the club.

It's the classic Dele conundrum: he's good for about 15-20 goals a season if you play him as a 9 1/2 behind Kane and effectively build the team around hum but you sacrifice a lot of possession and defensive stability (all of our games were 3-2 rollercoasters during that run) which is why both Poch and Jose moved away from this style.

However, move Dele out wide, play him as a traditional no.10, or deeper in midfield and he often flatters to deceive. He has moments of magic but too often slows the game down, overplays, gives the ball away cheaply and his goalscoring/assisting is diminished. He's still a good footballer but regularly frustrates and generally puts in a lot of 6/10 performances.

And that, in essence, is why I'd prefer us to play Bergwijn if we go 4-3-3 or a similar system - I think he provides more balance and is better suited to it than Dele.

I think unless Dele either seriously knuckles down and fights to improve the weaknesses in his game, or we build the team around him, he should no longer be a guaranteed starter.
Agree and disagree. I think Dele has the potential to play the Lampard role to perfection as one of a midfield 3. We'd need a good defensive midfielder though. That said, he'd have to adapt his game and focus on playmaking through balls and arriving in the box at the right time. Rather than the flicks and skills he uses when behind Kane. He's got the talent to excel in that role. He currently excels as a 9-1/2

Ndombele's flair and Dele's creativity and finishing +1 defensive minded player could be a wonderful midfield 3 with good coaching. Not where we are yet but next season....
 
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