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Harry Winks - Leicester City

Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,928

Haha, what?! Winks is a sideways passer, the players who very quickly move the ball forward accurately and quickly are GLC and Ndombele. What you are praising Winks for doing is one (of many things) that GLC and Ndombele are clearly far superior at doing.

Forward passing stats statistically actually include sideways passes which go slightly forward but are actually more sideways. It is why stats don't tell the full story, and if you rely on stats, will suggest Winks is a very progressive passer. However if you watch every Spurs game, you will know Winks is frustratingly not a very progressive passer at all. It is also one of the very noticeable things which Ndombele and GLC are much better at than Winks, which is passing forward.
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I'm happy you've actually chosen to respond with something more tangible.

But your claim of a backwards passing Winks making him less capable is also false. You realise the two of last seasons most creative players in Trent AA and Robertson were both in the top 10 in the league for backwards passes - and they are full backs no less.

If you claim that a forwards passing (or sideways pass slightly forward) is irrelevant surely it is logical that a backwards pass does not mean you're not a creative player. There is a time to play a backwards pass and it can be the best option if you're trying to bring a team out of playing a low block. The defence plays it into the midfield and they wait for the press and play it back to the defence. It may not directly lead to an assist or goal scoring opportunity but the cumulative approach is that the opposition is left out of position and out of energy.

Either way I think you'll find that winks has fewer backward passes per game than GLC and TN. None of this is evidence for Winks' lack of quality though.

Just as an FYI, the player in the league with the highest backwards passes? Willian - also one of the most creative in the league.
 

allpaths

Well-Known Member
Oct 31, 2014
3,174
8,381
He absolutely offers less. I actually can't believe there are fans who are trying to make out Winks is on the same level as GLC and Ndombele. The gulf in class is massive. It is completely delusional.
no we just see the game differently from you. Only difference being you're totally unwilling to consider our perspective.

I understand you're perspective and agree winks at times is too risk adversive in possession, but when he's own his game he's an incredible asset to the club.
 

carpediem991

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2011
8,836
20,308
This is at least a post that debates my points so for that I commend you.

But I disagree in part. I agree that we're seeing an improvement for TN and GLC but we're also seeing an improvement for HW. All three players are improving under the new system and the requirements fit their skill set. All three are very good and receiving the ball from the back line, turning quickly and making a forward pass into a player in threatening position and then getting up to support them. I actually think we have the perfect three to replicate or even improve on Liverpool's style of play if we went that way. Each player has a slightly different "twang". With TN you're getting a lot of power and technical dribbling ability, with GLC you're getting more passing and vision and with HW you're getting more off the ball workrate and composure which is probably more suited to the most defensive role of the three. All three are working very well and the value we give them depends on what you are looking for in any one given match.

I agree if Harry is suited to anything then it is the more defensive role as it is absolutely key and probably one of the most important skills as a rather offensive CM to actually make things happen. Especially against teams who sit back and can easily prepare on the rather slow and passive passing range of Winksy.
He is a fighter that will do quite well against opponents that want to play football as well.
But if we are talking about the more defensive role in the team we need to question whether his skill set is good enough for THAT position or we need someone who protects the back line better and maybe is taller to deal even better with high balls (at set pieces too).
For now, he seems to be a fine fit but he does not seem to be the man who can decide a game on its own on a good day. Neither defensively what Dembele could do by dominating the midfield nor offensively.
 
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Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,928
Mate when you basically try to invalidate one of the most reliable journalists in world football who says he has it on good authority we were hard in for Can, (we also had ITK backing this up), plus we have other people suggesting we want Soumare in the summer, and you just ignore this and call it rubbish, what is the point in debating? I am telling you it is obvious Mourinho wants to strengthen CM and Winks is only playing as Jose has little other choice at the moment, you think Mourinho really rates Winks, that is your perogative but I will call you out on it.

There is fuck all evidence Mourinho sees Winks as a long term solution in CM other than him starting 4 games in a row amidst an injury crisis. Time will tell, but when all players are fit I find it hard to see Winks in the first 11. I firmly believe Jose will want another CM in the summer and his first choice three will be Ndombele, GLC and a new signing.

With the greatest of respect to ITKs and journo's I don't mistake anything they say with facts. ITKs provide information second/third or fourth hand and never directly from the source. It is useful but never conclusive. Journalists have it as a job to sell clicks and generate interest in the same way Adrian Durham does. Your argument is like saying "This plane doesnt have any wings, it doesnt have an engine or a pilot to fly but its all we have so let's take a trip" - sorry that's not a plane I want to ride on

I'm more interested in what JM and previously MP do with their team selection and who they choose to actually sign rather than speculation and both of them seem to be consistently picking Wicks to do a very specific job that some fans are not able to recognise as being valuable.

I'm happy to be called out on my statements. But if you're going to call me out can you support it with actual evidence?
 

Riandor

COB Founder
May 26, 2004
9,414
11,621
Ahhh the problem with Harry Winks.
Doesn't have searing pace like Son.
Doesn't have the physique of Ndombele.
Doesn't have the guile of Lo Celso.

Blah blah blah.

Sorry, but Harry Winks is a very good footballer.
What has been an issue (other than his injuries), is how we play when we do use him. Yes, he has weaknesses, like any player and if put into a system that highlights those weaknesses, he will look worse.

Too often I have seen us play with too large a distance between players, stupid decisions from the back CB's playing him into trouble and yes, Winks himself do daft things.

The opposition recognise that if we we try and play more open and expansive with Winks as the Pivot, you wait for the right moment and press him as a group.

Toby or Sanchez play Winks the ball with 2-3 of the opposition in relative close proximity and they look to press the moment they see the pass was too heavy or Wink's touch was too heavy. Not so much an aggressive press, like we used to do, but the type where position is taken up ready, to press when our players don't look in control, up until then it's about positional discipline. Ralph Hasenhüttl likes this approach for example.

Now Dembele offered us protection from this because he was a bit of a freak in the way he could shield the ball at all times and carry it beyond the press, or at least offload. Winks is no Dembele, even NDombele isn't Dembele, though he has similar attributes.

For me it is no surprise that Winks has looked much more comfortable with players closer to him in our defensive shape, i.e. vs Liverpool and Man City. He is able to play quicker passes, looking for 1-2's with the likes of Lo Celso, or direct forward balls into runners. Ideally a Kane is there to also provide a man to pass it up to who can hold the ball and allow players to move forwards, but that's by the by.

Harry is a very tidy player, no one stand out attribute (other than workrate also important) and he does fit in with the likes of a lo Celso much more than say with Sissoko, who is not as able as GLC to handle quicker passing.

He doesn't have to be a Kante, we don't have to play with a pure CDM. What we can do is play with 3 dynamic midfielders who can all play quickly and accurately through a press and use the width of Wing Backs to provide the width rather than the midfield. In that type of system a Harry Winks fits nicely. Can he be upgraded, not cheaply!

For me the first midfielder Mourinho looks to move on and upgrade is Sissoko.
 
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Locotoro

Prince of Zamunda
Sep 2, 2004
9,328
13,928
I agree if Harry is suited to anything then it is the more defensive role as it is absolutely key and probably one of the most important skills to actually make things happen. Especially against teams who sit back and can easily prepare on the rather slow and passive passing range of Winksy.
He is a fighter that will do quite well against opponents that want to play football as well.
But if we are talking about the more defensive role in the team we need to question whether his skill set is good enough for THAT position or we need someone who protects the back line better and maybe is taller to deal even better with high balls (at set pieces too).
For now, he seems to be a fine fit but he does not seem to be the man who can decide a game on its own on a good day. Neither defensively what Dembele could do by dominating the midfield nor offensively.

I agree that he's good at both but not great and I agree that he's not the perfect anchor. But I suspect that JM is looking for someone who can do a bit of both. The problem with Dier is that he's positionally very good at occupying the defensive space and closing passing lanes but he doesnt offer that quick turnaround in attack. That counter is becoming our biggest defensive trait in that teams will become scared to commit when we have that ability. Winks can provide adequate (and improving) defensive cover and still turn the ball around fast.

I don't believe we're looking to replace him either because its such a niche role that we already have the 3 perfect players who can play that hybrid position.
 

bomberH

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2005
28,455
168,222
Just in that video a couple of pages back of his touches against City, he made 15 passes, 12 of them were forward passes and 3 of them were backwards. That’s not including the run that got the city player sent off. Also not including several excellent tackles and blocks.

Winks has been adding good forward passes to his game much more over the last year or so and the vast majority reach their target. They don’t have to all be expert through balls like Ndombele and Lo Celso can do, but they’re quick, forward balls assisting an attack. He certainly doesn’t slow the game down like he may have used to, not that that’s the worst thing in the world anyway.

The bottom line is that the game against City shows how excellent he can be. If he can keep that kind of form up then he can be one of the best midfielders (of his kind) in the league. Any doubters, please watch that video. His defensive work in particular is amazing. If he works on his final ball and shooting, he could be something really special.
 

carpediem991

Well-Known Member
May 31, 2011
8,836
20,308
I agree that he's good at both but not great and I agree that he's not the perfect anchor. But I suspect that JM is looking for someone who can do a bit of both. The problem with Dier is that he's positionally very good at occupying the defensive space and closing passing lanes but he doesnt offer that quick turnaround in attack. That counter is becoming our biggest defensive trait in that teams will become scared to commit when we have that ability. Winks can provide adequate (and improving) defensive cover and still turn the ball around fast.

I don't believe we're looking to replace him either because its such a niche role that we already have the 3 perfect players who can play that hybrid position.

I would pick Winks easily over the 2019/2020 Dier every time. And I wouldn't want to sell Winksy at all. Still though I do not see him as a every game starter as I would classify Tanguy and Gio because of their creative input. But as a 12th or 13th man I will always welcome him, similar with Lamela in another position.
But there sometimes the opiniosn drift in other directions.

Just in that video a couple of pages back of his touches against City, he made 15 passes, 12 of them were forward passes and 3 of them were backwards. That’s not including the run that got the city player sent off. Also not including several excellent tackles and blocks.

Winks has been adding good forward passes to his game much more over the last year or so and the vast majority reach their target. They don’t have to all be expert through balls like Ndombele and Lo Celso can do, but they’re quick, forward balls assisting an attack. He certainly doesn’t slow the game down like he may have used to, not that that’s the worst thing in the world anyway.

The bottom line is that the game against City shows how excellent he can be. If he can keep that kind of form up then he can be one of the best midfielders (of his kind) in the league. Any doubters, please watch that video. His defensive work in particular is amazing. If he works on his final ball and shooting, he could be something really special.

He had a brillant game and I think so even more after watching that video but we should not base our opinions only on that match as he had loads and loads of bang average performances and not a few people claimed he is a Bournemouth/Palace/Wolves player but not necessarily Top 4 (as a starter). He needs to be more consistent and have more influence against weaker sides.
 

ToDarrenIsToDo

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2017
1,665
6,291
He absolutely offers less. I actually can't believe there are fans who are trying to make out Winks is on the same level as GLC and Ndombele. The gulf in class is massive. It is completely delusional.

What he offers isn't as noticeable on the eye but he sacrifices himself for the greatter good, keeps things simple which ultimately offers us protection and he bleeds Spurs. That last note and it's importance CANNOT be stressed enough.

Half time 2-0 down who galvanises people more than a boyhood club who shows what he does? He is one of us, doing his bit and we should be grateful having a proper Tottenham boy flowing through the club at the moment, I wouldn't have it any other way it's vital that the Tottenham Hotspur of us flows through Spurs.

Lilywhite blood, don't forget that win lose or draw
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Scott Parker was around the same age when he signed for Chelsea having made his name as a talented all rounder. He failed there as he was good at most things but superb at nothing. He then reinvented himself as a gritty ball winner who also happened to be comfortable on the ball compared to most ball winners. I feel that Winks best shot with us and internationally is to follow suit. He’s quicker and bigger than Parker was, and than Makalele was for what it’s worth, if he can get his positioning/ defensive awareness and tackling up to scratch, combined with his current energy and ability, then he could both enhance his career and solve our biggest problem.
 

buckley

Well-Known Member
Sep 15, 2012
2,595
6,073
What I think is indisputable is that Winks always makes himself available to receive a pass from teammates who are under pressure .
This ability takes hard work and graft because he does not limit himself to the right or left and I would bet his teammates absoloutly love him.
He also can play a testing forward pass and has a good shot but Mourinho wants him playing further back because of our lack of an out and out defensive midfielder .
In his last England game Southgate played him in an attacking role and was generally considered Englands best player on the day .
Because he is team orientated he perhaps does not show up in a good light because he is about team not Harry Winks .
For me a great player and I am lost for words to relay to anybody that does not rate him .
..
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
You're the master of you're own downfall in every argument you make because you can't help but use exaggeration and hyperbole to try and make some grand elaborate point about how awful some of our players are.

This pretty much sums up how he argues:

Person A: Winks reminds me of Modric and Kroos

Primativ: OMG he no where near the same level as those two

Person B: I think Winks can become an important player at Spurs

Primativ: If you really think that Winks could become our most important player then you're deluded mate.

That with the added bonus on doubling down on his opinion and wanting to be proved right so much that he'll write paragraphs and use a tiny inch of data and stretch it just so they it suits his confirmation bias.

Makes this thread utterly toxic, funny watching him tie himself up in knots though ultimately sad that a Spurs fans can be so negative about their own player just to score some points on the internet.
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,190
4,905
Scott Parker was around the same age when he signed for Chelsea having made his name as a talented all rounder. He failed there as he was good at most things but superb at nothing. He then reinvented himself as a gritty ball winner who also happened to be comfortable on the ball compared to most ball winners. I feel that Winks best shot with us and internationally is to follow suit. He’s quicker and bigger than Parker was, and than Makalele was for what it’s worth, if he can get his positioning/ defensive awareness and tackling up to scratch, combined with his current energy and ability, then he could both enhance his career and solve our biggest problem.
This is exactly what Jose is asking Winks to do. You could see it in the City game. He is clearly asking Harry to work hard on his defensive obligations and positioning. The focus on covering the gaps and tracking the run was evident. I really think Jose sees him as an important player and can really make the position his own both for Spurs and England.

The vitriol directed at Winks is absolutely uncalled for. Not just on here, but in the stands it's a disgrace.
 

Bobby TwoShots

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2019
496
1,832
This is exactly what Jose is asking Winks to do. You could see it in the City game. He is clearly asking Harry to work hard on his defensive obligations and positioning. The focus on covering the gaps and tracking the run was evident. I really think Jose sees him as an important player and can really make the position his own both for Spurs and England.

The vitriol directed at Winks is absolutely uncalled for. Not just on here, but in the stands it's a disgrace.
Totally agree. It's always clear that Winks really loves the club. He deserves much better support.
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
I think he just lacks consistency and a niche. I don't really know what he is - some games he has played like Modric (sitting deep, spraying quality passes about), others like Parker (letting no one past his line in the pitch, tackling tough and winning the ball), and sometimes like Dembele (ball retention, dribbling, bringing players into play).

That isn't a direct comparison to other players, but more their style of play. He can be like a different player from one game to the next. That isn't really meant as a compliment, but it's hard to nail down a place if you don't know what place you're trying to nail down. Kind of like has a good game in a particular role, then the next game he'll stink out the place in the exact same role.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I think he just lacks consistency and a niche. I don't really know what he is - some games he has played like Modric (sitting deep, spraying quality passes about), others like Parker (letting no one past his line in the pitch, tackling tough and winning the ball), and sometimes like Dembele (ball retention, dribbling, bringing players into play).

That isn't a direct comparison to other players, but more their style of play. He can be like a different player from one game to the next. That isn't really meant as a compliment, but it's hard to nail down a place if you don't know what place you're trying to nail down. Kind of like has a good game in a particular role, then the next game he'll stink out the place in the exact same role.

Omg cant believe you think he's modric, parker and Dembele in one player.
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Omg cant believe you think he's modric, parker and Dembele in one player.

Did you know if you cross Parker with Modric you get Mark Noble?

It was a plausible experiment - no idea why he can't play football for shit.

parkdric.png
 
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