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Harry Kane

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,351
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Spot on.

The never-ending cyclical hate/love sagas are fucking exhausting and so predictable. All of last season Dier was getting mercilessly slagged off despite horrific injury luck, "too slow", "not skilled enough", "not a CM", blah blah blah.

Now, we have a few shaky games to start the season and guess who is showing back up in everyone's preferred XI? Eric Dier! Unfortunately, it's because they realized Dier is a very good player who has had a great tenure at the club but it's because Winks now isn't good enough!

Sadly, it often seems the best way to raise your profile with some supporters is to not play for awhile or try to fuck off.
I like that - it does feel like the criticism of players is venomous at times. I know that everyone has their favourites but people treat them like shit if they have 4 or 5 bad games. Even Shearer went through lean spells - I am certain that the response on here from some would have been 'he's shit - get rid'. Don't get me wrong, of course players can be criticised - blind loyalty is ridiculous but the level of vitriol on the match day thread is ridiculous.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Not that I wish to compare Kane to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, but both those players were far more involved in games in the first half of their twenties than anything following. Same was true of Henry, Shearer, and most other great goal scorers in my memory. Truth is, we were very spoilt by the steamroller version of Kane, but if you look at most steamroller forwards (regardless of size), they do tend to not be great goalscorers, and most great goalscorers aren’t actually constantly involved during matches, and that’s been true of both the two greats in my opening sentence for the past 7/8 years. I’m not saying I know what the correlation is, but there does seem to be a negative correlation between goalscoring and all round work rate.

When I think of relentlessly all action forwards, at varying levels and styles, I think of Drogba, Heskey, Kevin Davies, Bellamy, etc... none considered a top class reliable 2 in 3 goal getter. Even though I have absolutely no scientific fact or stat to support this theory, I just think that what we’re seeing with Kane is just symptomatic of being a top goal scorer and I base that on a visual of the demographics available rather than any real knowledge.

Would I prefer Kane to be the 16/17 model? Absolutely. However I think that there is at least a good deal of circumstantial evidence to suggest that we may need to trade all action for goals and moments, which I’m absolutely fine with as long as he gives us those goals and moments... but it does mean that Pochettino needs to have a system which both spreads the goals and puts energy around Kane.

I think of the current version of Kane was the version we always had (I.e. lots of goals, done good hold up play, some great passes and skill) then this wouldn’t even be a discussion, but because he at one point had the goals of Kilnsmann, passing if Sheringham, unpredictability of Keane and work rate/ hold up play of Kevin Davies, we see this as a drop rather than an evolution.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,392
Not that I wish to compare Kane to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, but both those players were far more involved in games in the first half of their twenties than anything following. Same was true of Henry, Shearer, and most other great goal scorers in my memory. Truth is, we were very spoilt by the steamroller version of Kane, but if you look at most steamroller forwards (regardless of size), they do tend to not be great goalscorers, and most great goalscorers aren’t actually constantly involved during matches, and that’s been true of both the two greats in my opening sentence for the past 7/8 years. I’m not saying I know what the correlation is, but there does seem to be a negative correlation between goalscoring and all round work rate.

When I think of relentlessly all action forwards, at varying levels and styles, I think of Drogba, Heskey, Kevin Davies, Bellamy, etc... none considered a top class reliable 2 in 3 goal getter. Even though I have absolutely no scientific fact or stat to support this theory, I just think that what we’re seeing with Kane is just symptomatic of being a top goal scorer and I base that on a visual of the demographics available rather than any real knowledge.

Would I prefer Kane to be the 16/17 model? Absolutely. However I think that there is at least a good deal of circumstantial evidence to suggest that we may need to trade all action for goals and moments, which I’m absolutely fine with as long as he gives us those goals and moments... but it does mean that Pochettino needs to have a system which both spreads the goals and puts energy around Kane.

I think of the current version of Kane was the version we always had (I.e. lots of goals, done good hold up play, some great passes and skill) then this wouldn’t even be a discussion, but because he at one point had the goals of Kilnsmann, passing if Sheringham, unpredictability of Keane and work rate/ hold up play of Kevin Davies, we see this as a drop rather than an evolution.


I think the injuries have played a part in the Kane we're getting now. If he's developed a bit more awareness and instinct for self-preservation, I'm all for it. Maybe Poch has instructed him to back off from the charging around and pick his moments. Either way, if it keeps him out of the physio room it has a major upside for us.
 

spurs mental

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2007
25,075
49,234
Not that I wish to compare Kane to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, but both those players were far more involved in games in the first half of their twenties than anything following. Same was true of Henry, Shearer, and most other great goal scorers in my memory. Truth is, we were very spoilt by the steamroller version of Kane, but if you look at most steamroller forwards (regardless of size), they do tend to not be great goalscorers, and most great goalscorers aren’t actually constantly involved during matches, and that’s been true of both the two greats in my opening sentence for the past 7/8 years. I’m not saying I know what the correlation is, but there does seem to be a negative correlation between goalscoring and all round work rate.

When I think of relentlessly all action forwards, at varying levels and styles, I think of Drogba, Heskey, Kevin Davies, Bellamy, etc... none considered a top class reliable 2 in 3 goal getter. Even though I have absolutely no scientific fact or stat to support this theory, I just think that what we’re seeing with Kane is just symptomatic of being a top goal scorer and I base that on a visual of the demographics available rather than any real knowledge.

Would I prefer Kane to be the 16/17 model? Absolutely. However I think that there is at least a good deal of circumstantial evidence to suggest that we may need to trade all action for goals and moments, which I’m absolutely fine with as long as he gives us those goals and moments... but it does mean that Pochettino needs to have a system which both spreads the goals and puts energy around Kane.

I think of the current version of Kane was the version we always had (I.e. lots of goals, done good hold up play, some great passes and skill) then this wouldn’t even be a discussion, but because he at one point had the goals of Kilnsmann, passing if Sheringham, unpredictability of Keane and work rate/ hold up play of Kevin Davies, we see this as a drop rather than an evolution.

I'd have classed Drogba as an elite forward but that's just my opinion. He was an absolute bully but he has skill to match it and scored some absolutely brilliant individual goals too.

Kanen, for me, has sudfered as result of both his own and the club's relative success. He's been the talisman since late 2014 and hasn't stopped being that either. He's Poch's main man.

Do agree with you though, the system should be tailored to get the maximum out of him.

I'd love him to be the 2017 version again, all action and involvement, goals from everywhere and if he got 2 the chances are he was going to score a hatrick. He got 8(?) In that calendar year. But we had a different style then and less injuries too. The last two seasons have been horrendous. I think if we have a good run with luck on the injury front we might get to see that again
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
I'd have classed Drogba as an elite forward but that's just my opinion. He was an absolute bully but he has skill to match it and scored some absolutely brilliant individual goals too.

Kanen, for me, has sudfered as result of both his own and the club's relative success. He's been the talisman since late 2014 and hasn't stopped being that either. He's Poch's main man.

Do agree with you though, the system should be tailored to get the maximum out of him.

I'd love him to be the 2017 version again, all action and involvement, goals from everywhere and if he got 2 the chances are he was going to score a hatrick. He got 8(?) In that calendar year. But we had a different style then and less injuries too. The last two seasons have been horrendous. I think if we have a good run with luck on the injury front we might get to see that again
Drogba was elite as a forward, but not as a goal scorer, and that’s more the point I’m making, great goalscorers very rarely sustain relentless fighting and pressing for more than a short period, and become ‘intelligent movers’ rather than ‘all over movers’. Drogba, for instance, was the main forward for Chelsea over the best 9 seasons in their entire history, during which he won three titles, and then again for a further season where Chelsea won another title. His total premier league record: 104 in 254. Very respectable, but when you consider that he was by and large the main striker in a side that won 4 titles in his 10 total seasons there, it’s not the type of goal rate you’d associate with the best goalscorers.
 

SpartanSpur

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2011
12,552
43,063
Drogba was elite as a forward, but not as a goal scorer, and that’s more the point I’m making, great goalscorers very rarely sustain relentless fighting and pressing for more than a short period, and become ‘intelligent movers’ rather than ‘all over movers’. Drogba, for instance, was the main forward for Chelsea over the best 9 seasons in their entire history, during which he won three titles, and then again for a further season where Chelsea won another title. His total premier league record: 104 in 254. Very respectable, but when you consider that he was by and large the main striker in a side that won 4 titles in his 10 total seasons there, it’s not the type of goal rate you’d associate with the best goalscorers.

Yeah that's a good point, the difference with perception over Drogba comes from the fact that he was the ultimate big game player. Mane at Liverpool was very similar until last season, his actual goal tally was relatively low (below Son's I believe), despite him consistently scoring against the top 6.

Drogba is still one of the best I've seen because of that, a true winner, but I do think there is a distinction to be made.
 

tooey

60% banana
Apr 22, 2005
5,228
7,948
Anyone watch it? How did he play?

He played ok. Took his goal from open play well and dispatched the 2 penalties with ease. I noticed that his energy levels seemed to drastically increase when he was on his hatrick which strangely enough has me scratching my head, perhaps his perceived lack of effort has been an application/game management issue and not a physical one.

He wasn't too involved in general but I think that was due to us targeting the spaces out wide, between the full back and centre half, meaning he could drift around the box looking to make himself a yard of space.
 

JCRD

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2018
19,153
30,013
If you are going to compare strikers on goal stats, which is after all the purpose of statistics, it's absolute bullshit if there's no distinction between real goals and penalties

I dont think they require a distinction although i see the point Penalties require skill though

Ask Pogba and Rashford, eh ask Aguero
 
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