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Dele Alli at Everton

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
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He is still young and has time to improve on those aspects of his game - that stuff can be worked on and hopefully he will become a more well-rounded player but he does have that special talent that most players don't and it's very valuable to the team.
I have said exactly the same.
 

Spartanspurs

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
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We are. Problem is at the moment we have Son and Moura who are very head down but get goals. This is resulting in a very uncohesive attacking lineup.

We can't retain possession as the 3 attacking players constantly give it up. For now their goals are helping us muddle through a difficult period but long term they are going to need to adjust their games.
See, this is excellent criticism. Not the absolute muppets saying he's a Watford level player. He's a very good, big game player, with world class potential. However, he does have flaws in his game which due to our other current attacking deficiencies, are being exposed more than normal.

He is missing Kane and Eriksen, both intelligent players whose off the ball movement and passing really compliments Dele's skillset. Hopefully, with Lo Celso's improving form and the signing of Bergwijn to both work with he can get back to his very best.
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
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No team will be successful if they just play attacking players with good goal and assist stats.

Do you mean just play those kind of players in the starting XI or just those players in the attacking positions? Because in the case of the former I agree, in the case of the latter I disagree - if you play attacking players who get lots of goals and assists you will have more success than if you play attacking players who don't get as many goals and assists.

The players have to offer more than that. The only players that get a truly free role are those offering extraordinary numbers of goals and assists. Alli's numbers are very good but not to the level where other parts of the game can be ignored.

There are two parts to this for me. I am not suggesting he is perfect, or can't be frustrating but I think 1 in 2 is better than very good for a player of his age - and I would expect him to improve with experience. If he does that, by the time he is 27 he could be phenomenal in terms of output. It's that immeasurable quality: potential. Which is why I continue to be a fan of his. If he doesn't improve but remains constant then I would agree that he falls into the good to very good category.

In terms of players having to offer more - and the 'flicks and tricks' argument. High risk passes obviously have a lower chance of success but can be much more devastating than safe passes. There is also the issue that it takes two to make a successful pass - the man in possession and the recipient, this season we have seen a lack of intelligent movement from our attacking players which makes the job he's trying to do more difficult. A lot of our players have been guilty of wastefulness in possession but it's Dele that seems to attract the most criticism for it.

In general on this forum, Dele is getting stick for being too risky while Winks is getting stick for being too safe. If you were to take that criticism to its conclusion you'd have a team that regularly concedes possession in proximity to our goal while tapping it safely about in the final third should they ever get there - that team would lose a lot of games.

It's almost as though some fans are never happy regardless and have a pronounced tendency to pin ridiculous hopes on new signings and excessive criticism on established ones. The reasoned criticism is good, but there's a lot of agenda-driven hyperbolic bullshit on here.
 

dontcallme

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Mar 18, 2005
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Do you mean just play those kind of players in the starting XI or just those players in the attacking positions? Because in the case of the former I agree, in the case of the latter I disagree - if you play attacking players who get lots of goals and assists you will have more success than if you play attacking players who don't get as many goals and assists.



There are two parts to this for me. I am not suggesting he is perfect, or can't be frustrating but I think 1 in 2 is better than very good for a player of his age - and I would expect him to improve with experience. If he does that, by the time he is 27 he could be phenomenal in terms of output. It's that immeasurable quality: potential. Which is why I continue to be a fan of his. If he doesn't improve but remains constant then I would agree that he falls into the good to very good category.

In terms of players having to offer more - and the 'flicks and tricks' argument. High risk passes obviously have a lower chance of success but can be much more devastating than safe passes. There is also the issue that it takes two to make a successful pass - the man in possession and the recipient, this season we have seen a lack of intelligent movement from our attacking players which makes the job he's trying to do more difficult. A lot of our players have been guilty of wastefulness in possession but it's Dele that seems to attract the most criticism for it.

In general on this forum, Dele is getting stick for being too risky while Winks is getting stick for being too safe. If you were to take that criticism to its conclusion you'd have a team that regularly concedes possession in proximity to our goal while tapping it safely about in the final third should they ever get there - that team would lose a lot of games.

It's almost as though some fans are never happy regardless and have a pronounced tendency to pin ridiculous hopes on new signings and excessive criticism on established ones. The reasoned criticism is good, but there's a lot of agenda-driven hyperbolic bullshit on here.
If you go by strict goals and assist numbers then Charlie Adam and Dempsey behind Defoe and Bent would have been an excellent line-up. Do you believe that would have worked?

The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything I wrote but agree with most of it.
 

jimbo

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Dec 22, 2003
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If you go by strict goals and assist numbers then Charlie Adam and Dempsey behind Defoe and Bent would have been an excellent line-up. Do you believe that would have worked?

The rest of your post isn't relevant to anything I wrote but agree with most of it.

It would work a lot better than Steffen Freund and David Howells behind Rasiak and Lee Barnard.
 

dontcallme

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Mar 18, 2005
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It would work a lot better than Steffen Freund and David Howells behind Rasiak and Lee Barnard.
So you agree a balance between playing players who gets goals and assists and players with work rate and other abilities is probably the best way to go?
 

jimbo

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Dec 22, 2003
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So you agree a balance between playing players who gets goals and assists and players with work rate and other abilities is probably the best way to go?

I thought I said exactly that. For clarification, my point is that you need goals to win games so picking players who get goals within a balanced team that is also capable of defending and passing is a good strategy.
 

dontcallme

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Mar 18, 2005
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I thought I said exactly that. For clarification, my point is that you need goals to win games so picking players who get goals within a balanced team that is also capable of defending and passing is a good strategy.
So we were agreeing the whole time, just when I thought I had found my arch enemy. Another wasted morning.
 

JamieSpursCommunityUser

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Jan 27, 2011
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He's not clinical enough to be a forward in that sense.

Also I feel a lot of his goals come from timing runs from deeper. Very different game to leading the line.

Without an actual number 9 I fear he would get marked more easily and have no one to aim at.

There are questions marks whether he has the discipline, but I would at least try Alli as a false 9.

Son and Moura definitely don't have the discipline for it either, nor can the do the hold up / pivot work JM wants, so I'd give it a go.

And by a false 9 I mean in transition receiving the ball in the spaces in front of the CBs, with Bergwijn and/or Son attacking the space between the FB and CB from wide positions.

We did something similar in the first 30 mins against Southampton at St Mary's, and it looked good until the team tired.

Of everything that we have available, I think this would seem to suit our best attacking players the most.
 

dontcallme

SC Supporter
Mar 18, 2005
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There are questions marks whether he has the discipline, but I would at least try Alli as a false 9.

Son and Moura definitely don't have the discipline for it either, nor can the do the hold up / pivot work JM wants, so I'd give it a go.

And by a false 9 I mean in transition receiving the ball in the spaces in front of the CBs, with Bergwijn and/or Son attacking the space between the FB and CB from wide positions.

We did something similar in the first 30 mins against Southampton at St Mary's, and it looked good until the team tired.

Of everything that we have available, I think this would seem to suit our best attacking players the most.
Possible. I think we all accept none of Son, Alli and Moura can lead the line and hold the ball up.

But I believe Alli is best at making late runs into the box. I think if he plays as the furthest player up the pitch he would get less goals, not more.

Son though can turn a player and get a shot in. He can also work the channels and create space for Alli and Moura running in. Not perfect but right now I would have Son up top.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
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There are questions marks whether he has the discipline, but I would at least try Alli as a false 9.

Son and Moura definitely don't have the discipline for it either, nor can the do the hold up / pivot work JM wants, so I'd give it a go.

And by a false 9 I mean in transition receiving the ball in the spaces in front of the CBs, with Bergwijn and/or Son attacking the space between the FB and CB from wide positions.

We did something similar in the first 30 mins against Southampton at St Mary's, and it looked good until the team tired.

Of everything that we have available, I think this would seem to suit our best attacking players the most.
For a player to be a true false 9, they also have to be a deadly finisher as well as creative... akin to Firminio. Its actually a rare role to excel at. Dele is more a trequartista... neither a forward, nor a full enganche/10 like Eriksen was. He operates off the forward, in between midfield and defence.

Son for me would be far more suited to a False-9 experiment. He has both the ability to collect and distribute, and to finish more clinically. But personally I don't think we should use that system anyway. Leave Son as a proper CF, play Dele off him like Teddy with Klinsmann, and use traditional wingers.
 

punkisback

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Apr 10, 2004
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For a player to be a true false 9, they also have to be a deadly finisher as well as creative... akin to Firminio. Its actually a rare role to excel at. Dele is more a trequartista... neither a forward, nor a full enganche/10 like Eriksen was. He operates off the forward, in between midfield and defence.

Son for me would be far more suited to a False-9 experiment. He has both the ability to collect and distribute, and to finish more clinically. But personally I don't think we should use that system anyway. Leave Son as a proper CF, play Dele off him like Teddy with Klinsmann, and use traditional wingers.
I don't think false 9 is a descriptor of a position style; more what happens when you don't play a proper CF up top, usually an AM and they act like an AM.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,350
87,813
I don't think false 9 is a descriptor of a position style; more what happens when you don't play a proper CF up top, usually an AM and they act like an AM.
A false 9 is basically a center forward who can score goals clinically, but also drop in front of the defence to collect and create. Its less a tactical style, and more a rare blessing of a uniquely talented player that you can take advantage of in this way. Messi is the absolute best example of it.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
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A false 9 is basically a center forward who can score goals clinically, but also drop in front of the defence to collect and create. Its less a tactical style, and more a rare blessing of a uniquely talented player that you can take advantage of in this way. Messi is the absolute best example of it.
I respectfully agree and disagree with this point! Then again it's all about the semantics. I think Dele could do a job up top, like Cahill has done for everton in the past.
 

spids

Well-Known Member
Jul 19, 2015
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He's not clinical enough to be a forward in that sense.

Ans yet Son and Moura up top has really not worked out has it. Dele would not be there to score but to link play (as he did last night when he came on and changed the game with two assists).
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,350
87,813
Ans yet Son and Moura up top has really not worked out has it. Dele would not be there to score but to link play (as he did last night when he came on and changed the game with two assists).
Dele came on specifically in the link role, and did great at it. He wasn't playing as a forward.

Lucas I agree is not a forward. Son has proven himself up front over the years however.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,350
87,813
I respectfully agree and disagree with this point! Then again it's all about the semantics. I think Dele could do a job up top, like Cahill has done for everton in the past.
I don't think he's owt like Tim Cahill. He was a very physical and dynamic player.

I think Dele would be isolated and ineffective as the focal point of an attack.
 
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