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Our Achilles' Heel

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
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6 points dropped this season now to teams that have defended deep and hit us on the counter. We are weak against pace and teams that play counter-attacking football. It's our Achilles' Heel.

The high line works if we can keep our concentration defensively but it's clear to any manager of weaker teams, or even teams as good as ours, that the way to beat us is to sit back, defend deep and centrally (particularly if we offer zero width on the left) and then look to hit us on the break.

Arsenal should have beaten us by 3 or more using that tactic (Lloris saved us from embarrassment) and today, West Ham did the same except they also played for set pieces and corners when in our half of the pitch. I wasn't surprised to see Walcott tear our high line apart at the Emirates, and West Ham played exactly as I would have predicted today.

AVB now needs to get a plan B if that's what the opposition plan to do because we're now going to see a lot more teams set up to beat us like West Ham did today. Start with Sandro/Capoue in the middle and keep one destroyer sitting back and distributing from deep, in order to break up the counter, and use some bloody width on the left hand side. You're not going to break through a body of ten men if they're all congested in the middle, particularly if there's not enough movement off the ball.
 

Tottenham_God

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2011
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We need a better defense and a morr coherent midfield witj strikes that score and a goalie who keeps clean sheets.

Oh my. I'll just blame it on Dawson
 

KitKat

Member
Jan 13, 2009
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We cant break down these mid table teams at home, they all play the same way and we dont seem to have an answer. Maybe because we have such a small pitch too, i know it sounds silly but we have one of the smallest pitches in the league which obviously means less space.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
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Expect villa to play the same way when we play them next... It'll be a very different villa team to the one we beat in the cup, that's for sure...

It's almost like there's a formula to beat us.

1. Sit deep and deny spurs space in the final third.
2. Hit spurs in the counter.
3. Look to take advantage of set pieces.
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
3,174
4,992
I have gone past caring about things out of my control. I love spurs and love to watch them play with some flair and swagger and scare teams not to bore them with sideways passing and gentle, Easy does it tempo with a little probing here and a floated cross into touch there...What Avb needs to do is irrelevant because he wont do it, He wont do it because A: He can't because he is slowly getting found out and is really tactically inept, Or B: He is far too stubborn to change from a system that won him the almighty Portuguese league with A vastly superior Porto and the Best european cup competition (sarcasm is my forte tonight chaps). Seriously though I am very concerned that we have spent over £100m and we have scored 6 fucking league goals and two of them have been penalties.....Man city have scored 17 :mad:. Even Southampton have scored more than us.
 

Nocando

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2012
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Very good op, forget all the individual player hate threads this is precisely the problem and has hit the nail firmly on the head. One other option would be to get a CB with a lot more pace (as we can't rely on YK to stay fit). However for the time being I think it would make a lot of sense to get a plan B, however this may go completely against AVB ethos.

Would we have the ability to sit deeper tactically? It's certainly a problem.
 

mrlilywhite

Well-Known Member
Sep 1, 2008
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Very good op, forget all the individual player hate threads this is precisely the problem and has hit the nail firmly on the head. One other option would be to get a CB with a lot more pace (as we can't rely on YK to stay fit). However for the time being I think it would make a lot of sense to get a plan B, however this may go completely against AVB ethos.

Would we have the ability to sit deeper tactically? It's certainly a problem.


I believe we have far more chance beating teams Sitting deeper. It is quite plausible that we have better players both defensive and attacking playing with a more deeper line. It is all about balance though, You don't want your team playing too deep that it invites pressure and conversely you don't want to play too high up the pitch as it invites the chance for a counter attack side to expose your lack of pace. If we dropped a little deeper and invited teams out of their shell a bit then this would create more space in which to exploit and this is what we are not doing enough of. I don't see how Avb expects to see us win games with ease if he does not give them the space in which to do so.

We have a wealth of talent in our team and a lot of potential to really make history, But Avb is not making the most of it. For such a young manager you would of thought that he would be willing to try new ideas and be proactive with his footballing ideologies, I personally don't think he has changed one bit since his day's of success at Porto and I don't think he will entertain new ideas either, Does he have to? Hell yes, His system does not work or is not as effective as it should be, Given that he has bought the players in that he wants. Far too cautious as well imo.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2003
9,186
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On the other hand, we dropped 6 points to London teams. These derby's are a bitch for us.
London derbies kill us! Look at last season, QPR, Fulham, chelski, wet spam, arse....you can't predict them! If only madchester had more teams.....
 

Darth Vega

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
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It's a risk but if we score early then we're fine. As soon as we force teams to come at us they leave themselves a bit more exposed and we can go on to score a 2nd. We saw today though, and often last season as well, that the longer it stays at 0-0 the harder it gets for us.

Having said all of that though, what other way is there to play against Spurs, or any big club for that matter? If West Ham came today and attacked us from the off they'd get absolutely destroyed. The so-called lesser teams aren't good enough to beat us at our own game. Nobody is gonna go to the Emirates to try and out-pass Arsenal and no lesser team will go to the Etihad all guns blazing, they'd get destroyed.

We just need to learn how to break teams down when they put everybody behind the ball...
 

Nocando

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2012
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4,385
I believe we have far more chance beating teams Sitting deeper. It is quite plausible that we have better players both defensive and attacking playing with a more deeper line. It is all about balance though, You don't want your team playing too deep that it invites pressure and conversely you don't want to play too high up the pitch as it invites the chance for a counter attack side to expose your lack of pace. If we dropped a little deeper and invited teams out of their shell a bit then this would create more space in which to exploit and this is what we are not doing enough of. I don't see how Avb expects to see us win games with ease if he does not give them the space in which to do so.

We have a wealth of talent in our team and a lot of potential to really make history, But Avb is not making the most of it. For such a young manager you would of thought that he would be willing to try new ideas and be proactive with his footballing ideologies, I personally don't think he has changed one bit since his day's of success at Porto and I don't think he will entertain new ideas either, Does he have to? Hell yes, His system does not work or is not as effective as it should be, Given that he has bought the players in that he wants. Far too cautious as well imo.


I agree and at the same time I don't agree.

I'm not really sure of the answers so that's why I refuse to dismiss AVB as sometimes inept or unwilling to adapt because I appreciate he is trying to achieve something and achieve a way we play that we haven't done previously. In fact its a way that very few prem teams play so I can understand why he wants to try and push the boundaries and achieve success with tactics above individual quality (because we are not on a level playing field with Arsenal, Chelsea, City and United).

I also understand there needs to be another option and I'm not sure if adjusting our line will be the answer (we had similar problems with Harry and he played the bog standard 4-4-2 mostly) due to the players not being able to swap between such changes, esp so during a game (and when we train to play in this way).

I also think our shooting is not up to standard because we often get into shooting positions on the edge of the box and either refuse to create space to shoot or shoot wildly and inaccurately. As much as I like Dembele I think he needs to have more confidence in front of goal to risk a shot, much like Bale did and thats why Bale went up a few levels in his play because he became fearless and knew he could score from any situation or position.

Finally I think as ever it's always a lot easier to sit from afar and state what went wrong and dictate what is needed to win, but it doesn't work like that and there are always plenty of other factors which could be the problem.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2003
9,186
11,147
I also think our shooting is not up to standard because we often get into shooting positions on the edge of the box and either refuse to create space to shoot or shoot wildly and inaccurately. As much as I like Dembele I think he needs to have more confidence in front of goal to risk a shot, much like Bale did and thats why Bale went up a few levels in his play because he became fearless and knew he could score from any situation or position..
must admit that's what gets my goat, why is it players are so scared of having a ping from 30 yds? Credit to Townsend, he seems to be the only one...but needs to work on it as he has the talent.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
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Whilst we came away with the three points today, there are very few (if any) spurs fans that can be happy with that performance. Another team comes to WHL, parks the bus and looks to hit us on the counter. Whilst it looked unlikely that Hull would score today, they might easily have got lucky or taken a set piece better. We never looked like scoring from open play and the penalty was an absolute gift.

Today's performance has confirmed to me (and probably many others) that the problem is clearly the system. This bunch of players are not playing badly in every game (although admittedly Sandro had a bad 45 mins today)
We squeeze the pitch up with our high line and make the pitch small. It makes us vulnerable to counter attacks but allows us to win the ball back quickly and dominate possession.
The problem is that we also have less space to use when we attack. Our wide players have less space to run in to, teams naturally defend deep so we find it difficult to get in behind them. We're playing inverted wingers but Lennon is unlikely to ever score with a shot from outside the box, and the crossing threat of both wingers is reduced by them crossing with their weaker foot. 90% of our attacks go through the middle where there's a body of opposition players to break through. Soldado is clearly a clinical finisher, but for me, he could work harder off the ball.
For the system to really work well, we need 2 top class attacking full backs, which we don't have. Vertonghen is more comfortable as a CB, and Walker is inconsistent. Rose is an enormous loss.

Ultimately however, the high line is not working, particularly at home. We need more space to play in and need to draw opponents out more to create better chances. Hopefully AVB would have taken note of the deficiencies in the way we play after two uninspiring performances (midweek and today)

On a more positive note, we're three points of top spot and still look strong defensively. I just can't see us getting top 4 if we continue to make things this difficult for ourselves.
 

michaelden

Knight of the Fat Fanny
Aug 13, 2004
26,386
21,685
...We squeeze the pitch up with our high line and make the pitch small. It makes us vulnerable to counter attacks but allows us to win the ball back quickly and dominate possession.
The problem is that we also have less space to use when we attack. Our wide players have less space to run in to, teams naturally defend deep so we find it difficult to get in behind them. We're playing inverted wingers but Lennon is unlikely to ever score with a shot from outside the box, and the crossing threat of both wingers is reduced by them crossing with their weaker foot. 90% of our attacks go through the middle where there's a body of opposition players to break through. Soldado is clearly a clinical finisher, but for me, he could work harder off the ball.
For the system to really work well, we need 2 top class attacking full backs, which we don't have. Vertonghen is more comfortable as a CB, and Walker is inconsistent. Rose is an enormous loss.

Ultimately however, the high line is not working, particularly at home. We need more space to play in and need to draw opponents out more to create better chances. Hopefully AVB would have taken note of the deficiencies in the way we play after two uninspiring performances (midweek and today)

On a more positive note, we're three points of top spot and still look strong defensively. I just can't see us getting top 4 if we continue to make things this difficult for ourselves.

I have 2 problems with what you are saying, 1) Our wide players aren't meant to run into wide positions to often, they are meant to run in and add to numbers in the box, Width is to be supplied, mostly, by the wing backs.

2)
The high line does not compress teams. These team are set out to play on the counter-attack. They are packing the centre & defence. Our playing a high line doesn't compress the play, they do. And to drop our defensive line only greats space between our midfield & defence which gives the opponents the best chance to counter-attack.

Our problem is that we are to static when not on the ball. There are too few off the ball runs to separate the defence and pull them out of position. And while Townsend is exciting and looks productive running at defenders & shooting from distance, he is actually being pretty ineffective. Don't get me wrong I think he is a great talent and can be a game changer, but he isn't one consistently yet. He needs to use his reputation now and make ghost runs without the ball into space pulling the CBs out of position allowing Eriksen, Paulinho, Dembele, Soldado etc. to exploit the space.

In the possession game we are playing now we need more movement and faster passing to play through, by going around, the defence. I know it reads funny, but you move forward by passing in triangles around the opposition. To do this you cannot pass and stand. You must pass & run, and if you don't get the return pass move forward to a new position, always giving the ball carrier more than 1 option to release the ball. Too often the only option is to shoot from the edge of the box, because no one has moved forward supporting Soldado or Defoe.
 

Darth Vega

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2013
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I think the midfield 2 is a big issue. Dembele and Paulinho leaves us without a proper defensive midfielder, i.e. Sandro, but today showed that Sandro and Paulinho leaves us without someone that can carry the ball and take on players. Dembele/Sandro probably provides the most balance but AVB clearly likes Paulinho and is unlikely to drop him. Maybe reverting back to all 3 would work.

Would require maybe playing a narrow front 3 with Townsend and Eriksen as a RF and LF as opposed to playing a RW and LW and subsequently leaving us with 2 wingers and no playmaker.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
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Powerful striker like Benteke would make teams think twice about getting too deep on us. We offer no threat from crosses or corners so why would anyone want to give us space between their lines?
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
46,080
We don't attack quickly enough or in enough numbers, which just allows the opposition to get organized and behind the ball.

Watching Arsenal yesterday and they comitted more men in attack whilst down to 10 men in injury time whilst 2-0 up than we do at 0-0.

I know playing 2 strikers is seen as dinosaur football these days but at home against teams who just park two banks of four in front of their goal, our system doesn't work and Soldado is being wasted. We need to get Ade back in the team and play 2 up, or push Eriksen further forward. But most importantly we need to take more risks imo.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
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3,587
I have 2 problems with what you are saying, 1) Our wide players aren't meant to run into wide positions to often, they are meant to run in and add to numbers in the box, Width is to be supplied, mostly, by the wing backs.
2) The high line does not compress teams. These team are set out to play on the counter-attack. They are packing the centre & defence. Our playing a high line doesn't compress the play, they do. And to drop our defensive line only greats space between our midfield & defence which gives the opponents the best chance to counter-attack.

Our problem is that we are to static when not on the ball. There are too few off the ball runs to separate the defence and pull them out of position. And while Townsend is exciting and looks productive running at defenders & shooting from distance, he is actually being pretty ineffective. Don't get me wrong I think he is a great talent and can be a game changer, but he isn't one consistently yet. He needs to use his reputation now and make ghost runs without the ball into space pulling the CBs out of position allowing Eriksen, Paulinho, Dembele, Soldado etc. to exploit the space.

In the possession game we are playing now we need more movement and faster passing to play through, by going around, the defence. I know it reads funny, but you move forward by passing in triangles around the opposition. To do this you cannot pass and stand. You must pass & run, and if you don't get the return pass move forward to a new position, always giving the ball carrier more than 1 option to release the ball. Too often the only option is to shoot from the edge of the box, because no one has moved forward supporting Soldado or Defoe.


To address your points.

1. I agree. Hence I already said this:

For the system to really work well, we need 2 top class attacking full backs, which we don't have. Vertonghen is more comfortable as a CB, and Walker is inconsistent. Rose is an enormous loss.

With the absence of good wing backs, the width needs to be offered by the wingers. Also, the wingers should use the width occasionally to mix up the play and give the opposition something to think about.

2. The high line won't stop teams from sitting back to defend against us, but it squeezes the space, meaning that our players have less time on the ball and less space to play in. The opposition strikers are closer to our midfielders and defenders to harry them and put them under pressure. West Ham did this particularly well pushing Nolan and Diame up high. Moreover, our quick players have less space to build up a head of steam to run past players. All defences need to push up, but our high line is very high. We're practically into the D in the opponents half most of the game. All the other teams in the top 6 don't push up that high.

I agree with your point about movement in general and Townsend. I was discussing him with a friend last night and we both agreed his movement off the ball could be improved. His potential is still enormous though.
 

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
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3,587
I'll keep adding to this thread each time this naive tactic costs us points. I knew we'd lose today because it was another team with pace. Remy exploited our back line last game. Today, Aguero, Toure and Navas repeatedly got in behind, and Nasri was finding all of them without even trying.

53% possession means nothing when you leave gaping holes behind, and the opponents have the pace to exploit that. We'll also lose to Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal again, amongst others, unless AVB gets a plan B (that's if he lasts long enough to devise a plan B)
 
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