Match Threads Newcastle vs Spurs

[midoshairband]

funny response and all that, but it's not the number of chances we're giving up, it's the quality of them.

 

[DenverSpur]

Spoiler

Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

You could basically tick off the bingo card on endemic problems on that one.

Lack of reliable quality in the final third
Lack of reliable control and creativity in the middle
Lack of reliable defending and getting opened up too easily out of very little

To be honest, I think that's right up there in terms of bad games to lose. In the second half Newcastle collapsed in terms of performance and were on the ropes. They gave us the ball in their third, completely exposed, getting on for a dozen times. Some of this was our pressing, most of it was calamity on their part. We did the square root of fuck all with opportunity after opportunity.

Forget "controlling games", we get control of the ball by default. It is largely irrelevant. Most teams now just sit back and defend their third, aim to ride out whatever storm we can muster, and wait for the chance to counter or for us to give them something/some things down the other end. Once again, we obliged.

The vast majority of the midfield and attack I just don't like. We have a lot of moments players, very few you can hang your hat on to deliver, and/or are so up and down across a 90 mins it is unbelievable. They did all this last season, most of them have done this across their career, why is anything going to be different this time around? Is a bunch of rookie kids all that was required to make fundamental change and try to take us places?

At the back it's not helped by missing VDV, and Romero and Udogie look totally undercooked at the start of this campaign. The fortunes of the defence is actually often as a result of shit happening further up the pitch in defensive aspects, but today that was two incredibly shit goals to concede.

Apparently everything is just great though. The players, the football, the manager, the signings, the transfer window. Just great. We're sticking to The Plan™ after all. Wish I could get on board with the optimism, but I just can't given the amount of jokers I feel we still have in this squad. We want to do something, and out-football each and every opponent in this fashion, then in every aspect we need to be better and we need a humungous shot of reliable technical quality added to the mix.

Very harsh, very over the top. You must be having a bad day.

 

[DenverSpur]

Then he went out and spent 130 million on two quality, first team ready players.

Was only able to do that because they rinsed Barcelona for Courtinho.

 

[rossdapep]

I was fuming when we re-signed Werner on loan and I got quite a few negative reactions but I stand by it.

To me it was an absolute waste of time and took up a valuable squad place we could have used to actually strengthen our team.

We could have Odobert and Moore as our back up LW’s (CAM too) to Son and instead of Werner we could have gone and got an actual quality attacker for RW.

Really stupid move, a waste of time and unfortunately sums up how we didn’t do enough in the window imo.

Still think he'll go back in January.

He won't start that often and if Moore makes any waves in EL, that'll be the cue that he's not needed. He can only play on the left.

The fact that Odobert looks better on the left and Ange started him there last week suggests that Werner isn't even going to be the go to guy even if Son is unavailable speaks volumes

We panicked. 100%.

He came in January to help out. That makes sense. But this summer he's been loaned for a much weaker reason.

You have to imagine that another club wanted to loan him, we got wind of it and decided to bring him in in case.

 

[rossdapep]

Two away wins since October, against ten men Villa and relegated Sheffield.

You not 'astounded' by that?

Bring in the best combined defence in the PL and we still get beaten on the break.

We are averaging two goals a game this season, how many do we need to score to win a game of football?

Defending is the issue and has been last season, pre-season and this season.

Look at the results for proof of that.

Try to focus on this season.

A lot of last season has some genuine excuses and we have had a preseason where Ange has added more tactical aspects.

This defeat today was a million times different to that 4-0 one last season.

There was a good spell in that second half where I genuinely felt we were gonna blow them away and it lasted a good 20 mins.

I didn't get that feeling with the crap away performances at end of last season. We really struggled to muster even a shot then.

Today we worked Pope a few times and got into some great positions only to fluff it. Don't even think we looked that vulnerable at the back bar the 2 goals.

 

[Danners9]

funny response and all that, but it's not the number of chances we're giving up, it's the quality of them.

vs the quality of chances created.



Not a measure I particularly like, but... creating 20, scoring through an OG and not really threatening otherwise is a real problem when Newcastle can cut through on a breakaway and win the game.

 

[Timbo Tottenham]

vs the quality of chances created.



Not a measure I particularly like, but... creating 20, scoring through an OG and not really threatening otherwise is a real problem when Newcastle can cut through on a breakaway and win the game.

You don’t need XG stats to tell you that, but it’s a useful measure. Although we don’t conceded many chances the ones we do are gilt edged, while at the other end we don’t great many great chances, it’s a real problem and has been for a while… I’ve been hoping it will just “click” for a while now and maybe having a striker on the pitch will help with that.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

You don’t need XG stats to tell you that, but it’s a useful measure. Although we don’t conceded many chances the ones we do are gilt edged, while at the other end we don’t great many great chances, it’s a real problem and has been for a while… I’ve been hoping it will just “click” for a while now and maybe having a striker on the pitch will help with that.

The thing is, as Ange said it’s not just about the chances we create, it’s about the amount of openings we have that we fail to turn in to a big chance because of poor decision making and execution.

I go back and watch our games again and nearly every match I notice countless attacks that are really promising that would turn in to big chances if it was City, Scum, Pool etc. Yet the attack breaks down for us at the final stage and don’t even register as a chance xG wise.

Add in the fact we put the ball across the box several times yet failed to attack the ball and it becomes clear we do create the openings, we just consistently fail to turn those openings in to actual big chances.

Ange actually said similar yesterday.

 

[worcestersauce]

So predictable.
Final decision making one end, shit. Defensively switching off costing us the other. It never, never changes.

Had all summer to improve the starting 11 defensively at the back and in midfield and decided not to, although shipping a shit load of goals last season with the same fucking players. All of whom get totally exposed when the awful decision making the other end, leads to one single pass cutting through wide open spaces that have now been vacated.

I like the style of play, just need good enough players to play it truly successfully. At least it weren't over by HT this time up there, so we must be improving

So are you saying that Romero, Porro, Udogie and Dragusin as backup aren't good enough?
Who should we have replaced them with?

 

[lincspurs]

9 times out of 10 Barnes misses, Johnson miscues & it fools Pope & Burns, Sarr hits a screamer through a crowd of players that somehow manages to miss all of them & go straight through to Pope. There were numerous times passes & through balls were deflected & nearly always ended up falling to them.
That’s football, on another day, with a recognised front man up there I think we would have scored 3 or 4. No one likes losing, especially me, but I’d much rather lose like that than the last 2 humiliations up there.

 

[wadewill]

Look forward to spending the next two weeks reading about how we “totally dominated” and “we’re in complete control” from posters who still don’t realise that the smart teams deliberately allow us to have the ball in order to hit us on the break…

Hmmm not sure you are right there pal. But maybe they to some
Extent, however if we become more clinical then teams can't do that.

We will properly turn someone over at some point. There is no way Newcastle deliberately let us have that much control. We were getting high turn overs, it wasn't like we were playing infront of them.

we got in behind a lot, just bad positioning, bad passing and bad choices time and again

I honestly felt that should have been 3/4-1.

 

[Romulus]

I thought we played well today. I expected much worse going to Newcastle based on recent history. I would have taken a draw coming in but after the first half, I wanted the win. We were the better side throughout.

Small time mentality. We need to get out of this mind set.

We finished above them. The team we're trying to be cant be worrying about Newcastle before we've played them

 

[VoteMe4Prez]

Must have been over 5 or 6 times in the 2nd half alone where the ball goes across their penalty box and no one took the initiative and shot. Yes Solanke I'm sure would have had 1 or 2 himself but it's poor from everyone else for not forcing the issue and then the inevitable defensive lapse and we get severely punished. So bloody frustrating

 

[SoulDog]

I thought we were going to lose this one. It's just one of them places we can't seem to get a result whatever. We played well overall yesterday and did not deserve to lose. If Ange makes them subs a bit earlier again, I think we may have atleast got the draw. Newcastle were clever with their subs and even slowed it down. I feel Madison should have came off a bit before as he was on a yellow and let that player easily get past him. Bissouma you could tell needed taking of and Odobert was getting into some dangerous positions but kept wasting them or making the wrong decision which is a concern as we already have so many players like this.

Again Ange being naive and not sure how long he can keep doing this . We use to slate poch for it.

Unlucky yesterday overall but should have atleast got the draw .

Vicarios kicking was also poor at times and put us under pressure atleast for one of the goals...

Wouldn't have minded losing this one as I thought we were going to and it don't really matter too much yet but now we got to wait two weeks till arsenal and it's boring internationals.

 

[worcestersauce]

Did anyone else notice we had quite a few shots from outside the box? When faced with a box full of defenders that has to be a good way to beat the defence and score, obviously you have to get them on target and beat the keeper but hopefully that will come. My point goes further though, we haven't been doing that before but knowing it's now an option we'll take regularly, opposition defenders will respond by closing down the player going to shoot which creates a hole somewhere in the box that I'd hope exploiting would be our next step.
Maybe we are thinking two steps ahead.

 

[VoteMe4Prez]

Did anyone else notice we had quite a few shots from outside the box? When faced with a box full of defenders that has to be a good way to beat the defence and score, obviously you have to get them on target and beat the keeper but hopefully that will come. My point goes further though, we haven't been doing that before but knowing it's now an option we'll take regularly, opposition defenders will respond by closing down the player going to shoot which creates a hole somewhere in the box that I'd hope exploiting would be our next step.
Maybe we are thinking two steps ahead.

That was actually a lot better, you're correct

 

[easley91]

Did anyone else notice we had quite a few shots from outside the box? When faced with a box full of defenders that has to be a good way to beat the defence and score, obviously you have to get them on target and beat the keeper but hopefully that will come. My point goes further though, we haven't been doing that before but knowing it's now an option we'll take regularly, opposition defenders will respond by closing down the player going to shoot which creates a hole somewhere in the box that I'd hope exploiting would be our next step.
Maybe we are thinking two steps ahead.

Yes I forgot to mention this yesterday. People were talking about the lack of shot taking outside the box after Bayern (I think?) and yesterday Porro had a few attempts, Maddison had a go too. Sarr had an effort.

 

[kitchen]

The thing is, as Ange said it’s not just about the chances we create, it’s about the amount of openings we have that we fail to turn in to a big chance because of poor decision making and execution.

I go back and watch our games again and nearly every match I notice countless attacks that are really promising that would turn in to big chances if it was City, Scum, Pool etc. Yet the attack breaks down for us at the final stage and don’t even register as a chance xG wise.

Add in the fact we put the ball across the box several times yet failed to attack the ball and it becomes clear we do create the openings, we just consistently fail to turn those openings in to actual big chances.

Ange actually said similar yesterday.

This.

The style of play is such that we are never going to restrict the opponent from getting any chances. And when they do they will likely be good chances as we're usually outnumbered in quick transitions. But they won't get many as they'll spend most of the game suffocated.

And if executed well, Ange's football will create way more chances for us than opponents over 90 and if we're good at making decisions we will also create good chances which by law of averages means we ought to win. Watching Howe in his interview yesterday he knew they were outplayed and got away with one.

At the moment the attack is a much bigger problem than the defense however. Either through decision making or profligate finishing when it comes to it. Sort that out and the most entertaining football in the league also becomes a winning brand.

Let's stick with it.

 

[WiganSpur]

You don’t need XG stats to tell you that, but it’s a useful measure. Although we don’t conceded many chances the ones we do are gilt edged, while at the other end we don’t great many great chances, it’s a real problem and has been for a while… I’ve been hoping it will just “click” for a while now and maybe having a striker on the pitch will help with that.

I like XG stats especially the longer term trends. For me there are 2 basic ways to approach a football match you can sit in, play deeper and look to plug the gaps and frustrate, or you can try to push up and box in the opponent forcing chances from high press and suffocation. But I think some seem to equate the attacking approach automatically with effectiveness and I view them as separate. To be effective you have to have a strategy to defend and attack no matter where the line is or what you do out of possession.

A good defensive team will frustrate opponents and limit chances and then have a devastating counter attack. That would be reflected in good XG differentials. However a poor one will have zero threat on the counter and will still fail to defend properly and give up chances. I felt this happened a lot under Jose. This style can actually be exciting with the right forward line.

A good attacking team will be able to suffocate the counter attacks successfully and be able to generate consistent openings that reflect their dominance in possession.

At the moment we are an OK but flawed attacking side and that is reflected in the XG at the moment. But the point is if we play in the opponents half for the majority of the game it does not mean the performance is automatically good by any stretch.

There are flaws to non penalty XG especially the time line of chances created. There can also be things like lucky bounces that can create enormous XG but over the longer term you can separate out the signal from the noise.

I prefer the attacking approach. But the bottom line is we’ve had both types of managers and what they all have in common is that they need the right established players to come in to make their systems effective.

 

[SaKkA.kenchiku]

Defending 101 used to be if the opposition player with the ball is being pressured the defensive line pushes up.
If the opposition player is standing all alone in plenty of space with the ball you start dropping.
Not sure why these basics are not part of our system as it's common sense why. Even more so when VdV isn't playing.

Based on what level? It’s never been that simplistic. I do not believe we lost on the bases of a high line. It was more to do wit not doing more in the final third and Romero losing his concentration of which that has lead to 3 goals this season. He may not be up to speed yet with most of pre-season missed. I hope he can solve this to be truly world class and in the VanD for Liverpool level.