New Stadium Details And Discussions

[UpTownSpur]

There's a great deal of over-confident and uninformed speculation going on here, from people who don't know very much about building programmes, planning law and development finance. I am reading a lot of brash statements about matters that their authors do not properly understand.

I think it is possible to move into a partly-completed stadium without a roof, or under a temporary roof. Physically, it could be done. But it would be spectacularly disruptive and horrendously expensive and there would be a plethora of administrative and legal obstacles, many of which could not be overcome.

A late mega-change-in-plans of this nature would also piss off the entire development team, I guarantee it. You don't want to do that, not if you want your building completed to a high standard and on time and especially not if you want to control costs.

I return to my original point from my earlier post. I do not know whether the idea of moving into the partly-completed stadium is being considered again. I do know that the internet-opinion-piece upon which this internet-factoid discussion is being based has been written by someone who knows virtually nothing about the building industry and the development process.

Draw your own conclusions from that. The people who are prone to confirmation bias and conspiracy theories will inevitably conclude one thing, because they see the evidence that they want to see and disregard the rest. I will wait and see, as usual.

With the greatest respect, I trust what I read on SSC from posters with a large amount of experience in the construction industry ahead of Spurscommunity's self appointed expert on large building projects

 

[davidmatzdorf]

With the greatest respect, I trust what I read on SSC from posters with a large amount of experience in the construction industry ahead of Spurscommunity's self appointed expert on large building projects

I wasn't commenting on anything from SSC. I haven't even looked at it recently.

The discussion about using the partly-completed stadium was triggered by this article:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tottenham-stadium-news-shock-spurs-fans-gary-taylor?published=t

...which is not well-informed in any way about the building process. That is what I was discussing in my earlier posts.

As I wrote earlier this evening, I have no idea whether THFC is reconsidering the phased-completion idea. It wouldn't surprise me if the idea is being revisited and reappraised every year or so, just to see if anything has changed and to reassess the marginal costs and the potential benefits.

But I do know that the article that started the current round of speculation is nonsense.

Unlike a few others on this thread, I don't draw sweeping conclusions when I have no information or knowledge. I qualify my statements accordingly.

 

[Mustard]

I wasn't commenting on anything from SSC. I haven't even looked at it recently.

The discussion about using the partly-completed stadium was triggered by this article:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tottenham-stadium-news-shock-spurs-fans-gary-taylor?published=t

...which is not well-informed in any way about the building process. As I wrote earlier this evening, I have no idea whether THFC is reconsidering the phased-completion idea. It wouldn't surprise me if the idea is being revisited and reappraised every year or so, just to see if anything has changed and to reassess the marginal costs and the potential benefits.

But I do know that the article that started the current round of speculation is nonsense.

Unlike a few others on this thread, I don't draw sweeping conclusions when I have no information or knowledge. I qualify my statements accordingly.

I've heard there is zero chance of the stadium being completed on time and none of the site managers want to be affiliated to it as it will ruin their reputation long term.

Hope that's bullshit.

 

[Athan]

December 10th 2012.. 10 months to get it done

In and playing 13th September 2013

pictures copied from SSC

Might not be entirely implausible, certainly not impossible.

The tricky part is the roof and according to some on SSC it could be done. The 6 Cores take the weight, the south stand is only extra stability and they can use a make shift support while they build the steel structure.

 

[beats1]

I'm no expert on construction, but common sense tells me that this is nigh on impossible. It's one thing to build the main construction, but the retractable pitch, internal fittings etc are another thing all together.

Must be pie in the sky, surely?

I seen a lot of people mention that there is no way of building the retractable pitch but that isn't the issue imo. Finishing the structure, internal fittings and making it work would be the major issue and getting it safe and fit for purpose. Which requires a lot but worth noting this is what our stadium will look like in May 2017

The retractable pitch doesnt need to be built next season, one alternative solution would be not build and install a normal pitch like Bilbao did. Then after we knock the north stand down during the summer, to build the retractable pitch under the south stand and at the current stadium.

As for the roof, I have seen people on SSC say that the roof cant be finished until the whole stadium is built. This is right and wrong. The roof is a tension/compression roof so that means the outer ring needs to be completed first before the inner ring is lifted up in to place by wire. So they would be right in that sense but you could lift the roof in to place without the ring completely being finished, it would just require the right load to be applied in to the incomplete tension/compressions rings and it acting like an arch(tension/compression rings are archs that are 360deg instead of typically 180deg). As you can see in the picture above the outer tension ring/compression ring is completely.

Getting all this done is like us winning the league but not impossible in theory

Now before people misinterpreting my post, I'm not saying this guy is right nor saying that it will happen but the engineering aspect isn't impossible

Edit: I wrote this message on thursday night, as I had an image of what the build should look like in May(from one of the contractors) but I cant seem to find it anymore instead only have the image above which is a fan made render and not 100% accurate and it has some details wrong from what I can see

Not a chance it's going to be tight enough to get it done in one season

As I said in another thread, there is no way we wont be moving in 2018-19 unless something major happens that throws the build off course. Whether it will be completely finished is up for debate but we will be moving in to WHL in 2018 regardless.

 

[taidgh]

I wanted to give everyone a little knowledge on how the advertising works here in the states for games. Which ever company is broadcasting the game, doesn't care about the game. Its more about how many commercials they can throw into that game. An example is the "Super Bowl." Those commercials cost a million dollars for a 30 second spot, literally. In the NFL they have, what they call, "TV time outs," they randomly stop play between downs so the broadcasting company and can throw commercials at you and make huge profit. When you're at the game, this is when the screens show advertisements. This is why it takes 4 hours for 1 game. Other then that, they show what is being broadcast-ed on TV as well as replays. I've been completely turned off by the NFL because of this, my football starts 7am.

MLS on the other hand, handles the advertisements properly. Pre-game, post game and halftime advertising. No more, no less. Now if only the quality of the game was better...

Actually, the average 30 second ad is going for $5 million this year! Ads cost more for 1st quarter and less as the game goes on.

 

[spursfan77]

What I can't see is a grand opening of a 3/4 completed stadium.

Exactly. We will want to make the most of the opening premier league game in the new stadium. There's no way after all these years of toil and hard work to build it that Levy will want it introduced to the world not 100% right. Remember the fanfare when the training ground opened, the club invited all and sundry to that to show it off. The same will happen with the stadium and it won't happen without it being finished.

 

[Hengy1]

Personally I'd rather not move in till it's completely finished.

Will take some of the glam of it going into a partially completed stadium imo

 

[Athan]

Exactly. We will want to make the most of the opening premier league game in the new stadium. There's no way after all these years of toil and hard work to build it that Levy will want it introduced to the world not 100% right. Remember the fanfare when the training ground opened, the club invited all and sundry to that to show it off. The same will happen with the stadium and it won't happen without it being finished.

I know what you mean but we can still have a grand opening. Levy can show the whole world just how special our place is by having multiple events on one weekend. We may use it for a year and then the following season, well how about 1st weekend of the season.Spurs game afternoon, NFL game in the evening and just because we can, have a concert the following day. That would be a pretty grand opening.

 

[shelfmonkey]

Is it me or is the angle of the lower tier very flat?

Not as flat as the gooners' witch's tit stands.

 

[Monkey boy]

With the greatest respect, I trust what I read on SSC from posters with a large amount of experience in the construction industry ahead of Spurscommunity's self appointed expert on large building projects

That's an incredibly rude statement to make even if you don't think much of @davidmatzdorf

You only need to trawl back through this thread to see that David knows what he's talking about and should be offered the courtesy of not being belittled like you have just done.

For what it's worth I've been involved in construction projects for 15 years now and have pretty much agreed with everything that David has posted in this thread.

 

[L-man]

That's an incredibly rude statement to make even if you don't think much of @davidmatzdorf

You only need to trawl back through this thread to see that David knows what he's talking about and should be offered the courtesy of not being belittled like you have just done.

For what it's worth I've been involved in construction projects for 15 years now and have pretty much agreed with everything that David has posted in this thread.

Yeah but you don't post on SSC so you clearly know nothing

 

[grandadgarry]

I post ssc and I know nothing, so your statement proves nothing

 

[Wine Gum]

Posted by Matilda Collywobs on Glory-Glory

"The plan hasn't changed. Notwithstanding the previous scheme which was materially different in its design, function and build, at no point has the club considered moving into a partially completed stadium.

The appetite is to derisk where possible, not compound and add further to; moreover, what is suggested in the article is just not practically possible. However, and I must stress, at no stage has partial completion been considered.

The build-out remains within tolerance; some elements are ahead of others, but overall we're strongly positioned. Final detail is being completed on our arrangements for 17/18, and those will be announced shortly.

Incidentally, I do hope the refreshed minisite has been well received. The depth of interest has been quite a surprise, and it's taken a little time to develop what we see as the right service. It is going to evolve and is by no means fail accompli".

 

[beats1]

With the greatest respect, I trust what I read on SSC from posters with a large amount of experience in the construction industry ahead of Spurscommunity's self appointed expert on large building projects

With all due respect coming from a former engineer, theres a lot of bollocks on SSC as its full of football fans rather than engineers.

December 10th 2012.. 10 months to get it done

In and playing 13th September 2013

pictures copied from SSC

Might not be entirely implausible, certainly not impossible.

The tricky part is the roof and according to some on SSC it could be done. The 6 Cores take the weight, the south stand is only extra stability and they can use a make shift support while they build the steel structure.

The roof is a different issue, Bilbao had a different roof design. Their roof system is a cantilever system whereas ours is a compression/tension ring. This requires the whole outside ring to be complete before lifting up the inner rings and tightening them in place. As I said previously on SSC, this is possibly as you would have to put a load on the rings to make them work like an arch.

Having a complete ring would be possible as well and similar to the state velodrome but it would be a difficult build plan with demolishing a stadium and completing compression/tension ring pretty much on top of our current pitch before erecting a roof. Also our roof isn't made of fabric so that would take a bit longer but that doesn't mean it wont be quick.

 

[UpTownSpur]

That's an incredibly rude statement to make even if you don't think much of @davidmatzdorf

You only need to trawl back through this thread to see that David knows what he's talking about and should be offered the courtesy of not being belittled like you have just done.

For what it's worth I've been involved in construction projects for 15 years now and have pretty much agreed with everything that David has posted in this thread.

I think David's ego can handle a bit of critism. I believe his experience relates to housing projects. In those cases, absolutely everything must be finished before people can be allowed to live in them. But in the case where you're building your own house, you have the choice to move in when it's only partially complete. I think we have that choice, and it's preferential in my opinion. I've seen people say we have to have this big fancy, fanfare opening and moving in early would spoil that. Bullshit. We should do what's best for results in the pitch. That's all that matters. Look at the bullshit that surrounded our first Wembley CL game. It distracted from the game.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Posted by Matilda Collywobs on Glory-Glory

"The plan hasn't changed. Notwithstanding the previous scheme which was materially different in its design, function and build, at no point has the club considered moving into a partially completed stadium.

The appetite is to derisk where possible, not compound and add further to; moreover, what is suggested in the article is just not practically possible. However, and I must stress, at no stage has partial completion been considered.

The build-out remains within tolerance; some elements are ahead of others, but overall we're strongly positioned. Final detail is being completed on our arrangements for 17/18, and those will be announced shortly.

Incidentally, I do hope the refreshed minisite has been well received. The depth of interest has been quite a surprise, and it's taken a little time to develop what we see as the right service. It is going to evolve and is by no means fail accompli".

Whilst I appreciate the info from someone who plainly is ITK, I have to say that the post from Matilda Cullen, sorry, I meant Collywobs, is an excruciating example of how to write pompous, tortuous, fake-educated prose of the worst kind.

I expend some effort here trying to set out technical or legal issues from the development world in prose that people can read and grasp. If you want to see why, read this through a few times. It's accurate information, but for some ill-advised reason, perhaps insecurity about her education, the writer has felt compelled to cloak it in as much pretentious horseshit as she can.

My favourite bit of semi-Freudian bollocks: WTF is a "fail accompli"? Maybe we can be charitable and put that down to auto-correct.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I believe his experience relates to housing projects. In those cases, absolutely everything must be finished before people can be allowed to live in them.

No. Phased completions are commonplace.

But in the case where you're building your own house, you have the choice to move in when it's only partially complete.

Yes. Which is exactly what I did in June 2000. I lived in a building site and the house wasn't finished until the following May.

We should do what's best for results in the pitch. That's all that matters.

No one gives a fuck what you think we should do. I don't post what I prefer, because no one gives a fuck about that either. That goes for team selections and transfers, as well as the stadium development.

I post information and observation and sometimes I post what I expect to happen. But I don't try to tell the club what to do on a fan website. Because I'm not an arrogant, deluded arsehole.

In this case, irrespective of what I would prefer or recommend, I do not expect that the club hierarchy is going to prioritise short-term football results over the smooth completion of our home for the next half-century. Do you seriously think they will do that? Really?

Not what you want. What you think they want.

 

[UpTownSpur]

No. Phased completions are commonplace.



Yes. Which is exactly what I did in June 2000. I lived in a building site and the house wasn't finished until the following May.



No one gives a fuck what you think we should do. I don't post what I prefer, because no one gives a fuck about that either. That goes for team selections and transfers, as well as the stadium development.

I post information and observation and sometimes I post what I expect to happen. But I don't try to tell the club what to do on a fan website. Because I'm not an arrogant, deluded arsehole.

In this case, irrespective of what I would prefer or recommend, I do not expect that the club hierarchy is going to prioritise short-term football results over the smooth completion of our home for the next half-century. Do you seriously think they will do that? Really?

Not what you want. What you think they want.

I'm gonna remind you of this post next season. You'll have no right to moan if we have abnormally poor results at Wembley, because according to you it doesn't matter. I will be moaning and reminding everyone I told them this was a bad idea, and going on a forum is the only way I can express that in the faint hope it will make difference.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

I'm gonna remind you of this post next season. You'll have no right to moan if we have abnormally poor results at Wembley, because according to you it doesn't matter. I will be moaning and reminding everyone I told them this was a bad idea, and going on a forum is the only way I can express that in the faint hope it will make difference.

I'm OK with that. You still haven't understood my posts. Because you're still obsessing about what we "should" do and assuming that I am doing the same. It's a collective blind spot on SC.

At no point have I made any recommendations or demands. I have not said what I think we should be doing about the stadium, nor where we should be playing next season's matches. I don't do that.

I am asking you whether you think the club has those priorities - I don't think so. I'm not interested in what you want. I'm interested in what you think the club wants. But your brain doesn't seem to be able to adjust to the difference.

So moan away. Just don't revive this and insist that I said that the club "should" be paying at Wembley next season. Because I have not communicated any opinion on that. I have no view on whether it is a "bad idea". I'm interested discussing what is likely to happen.