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Missing Mason...

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,968
32,978
My point was that alongside some issues I have with how we are using possession and in what areas, we're missing runners looking to stretch in behind defences when they are well set. You don't need 25 pass moves cutting defences apart half a dozen times in the process before sticking it in the net or sub 10 second 100m runners, but I think we are missing short, sharp, sudden runs into advanced areas/looking to get in behind defences that can do teams damage.

We have seen recently the Alderweireld - Alli direct goals where he ghosts in behind a sleeping defence. So you'd think Alli could do it, but he doesn't seem to look for the sudden sprints in behind when we have possession closer to goal. Kane can do it and there have been isolated examples recently (Norwich pen and last nights chance) but he's playing less and less on the shoulder. As for the others, well I think Son can make runs but he seems to like to drop off and find space, fuck knows what N'Jie can do based on his limited outings so far, and so that really leaves Mason surging forward from deep or Chadli making his out to in runs behind the defence that he is capable of (see Hull (H) and Southampton (A) goals for example last season).

It's possible against even against defences sitting deep, all you need is a darting run into space, whether than be vertically or laterally, and then the pass to find them. At the moment we're getting a bit too much everyone wanting the ball to feet, it eventually going wide and then hopefully slung in the box.
 

SPURSFANfrance

Compte off
Mar 4, 2015
220
254
Bentaleb knows create spaces.
That is the difference. Carroll, mason and other plays in the axis directly, Nabil creates space and frees up space for Eriksen, kane ...

Poch system does not work because Alli works on the feet of Kane, Carroll often goes ahead and leaves Dier alone in CM. Last season Harry was more comfortable but not now!

Moussa he's not the Messia ( draws with him too) arrives late in the game!
Here you are all footix!

ps: With his country, Nabil scored 3 goals.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I have just gone through every match looking at our starting 11, and our middle pairings are

EPL
Man U (a) 0-1 = Dier & Bentaleb
Stoke (h) 2-2 = Mason & Dier
Leicester (a) 1-1 = Mason & Dier
Everton (h) 0-0 = Dier & Bentaleb
Sunderland (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Palace (h) 1-0 = Dier & Alli
Man C (h) 4-1 = Dier & Alli
Swansea (a) 2-2 = Dier & Alli
Liverpool (h) 0-0 = Dembelle & Alli
Bournemouth (a) 5-1 = Dier & Alli
A Villa (h) 3-1 = Dier & Alli
Arsenal (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
West Ham (h) 4-1 = Dier, & Dembele
Chelsea (h) 0-0 = Dier, Dembele & Mason
WBA (a) 1-1 = Dier & Dembele
Newcastle (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
Southampton (a) 2-0 = Dier & Dembele
Norwich (h) 3-0 = Dier & Dembele
Watford (a) 2-1 = Carroll & Dembele, though Poch played a 3-4-2-1
Everton (a) 1-1 = Dier & Carroll
Leicester (h) 0-1 = Dier & Carroll
EL
Qarabag (h) 3-1 = Dier & Carroll
Monaco (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
Anderlect (a) 1-2 = Dier & Dembele
Anderlect (h) 2-1 = Mason & Dier
Qarabag (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Monaco (h) 4-1 = Dier & Carroll
CoC
Arsenal (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
FA Cup
Leicester (h) 2-2 = Dier & Carroll

I think Carroll is just not suited to play v Premier teams, or just not with Dier as the only league game we have won with him starting was v Watford and with Dembele

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P4 - W3 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
 

kaz Hirai

Well-Known Member
Nov 5, 2008
17,692
25,340
I have just gone through every match looking at our starting 11, and our middle pairings are

EPL
Man U (a) 0-1 = Dier & Bentaleb
Stoke (h) 2-2 = Mason & Dier
Leicester (a) 1-1 = Mason & Dier
Everton (h) 0-0 = Dier & Bentaleb
Sunderland (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Palace (h) 1-0 = Dier & Alli
Man C (h) 4-1 = Dier & Alli
Swansea (a) 2-2 = Dier & Alli
Liverpool (h) 0-0 = Dembelle & Alli
Bournemouth (a) 5-1 = Dier & Alli
A Villa (h) 3-1 = Dier & Alli
Arsenal (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
West Ham (h) 4-1 = Dier, & Dembele
Chelsea (h) 0-0 = Dier, Dembele & Mason
WBA (a) 1-1 = Dier & Dembele
Newcastle (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
Southampton (a) 2-0 = Dier & Dembele
Norwich (h) 3-0 = Dier & Dembele
Watford (a) 2-1 = Carroll & Dembele, though Poch played a 3-4-2-1
Everton (a) 1-1 = Dier & Carroll
Leicester (h) 0-1 = Dier & Carroll
EL
Qarabag (h) 3-1 = Dier & Carroll
Monaco (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
Anderlect (a) 1-2 = Dier & Dembele
Anderlect (h) 2-1 = Mason & Dier
Qarabag (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Monaco (h) 4-1 = Dier & Carroll
CoC
Arsenal (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
FA Cup
Leicester (h) 2-2 = Dier & Carroll

I think Carroll is just not suited to play v Premier teams, or just not with Dier as the only league game we have won with him starting was v Watford and with Dembele

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P4 - W3 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0

Dier and Alli seems the way to go for a lot of games, also frees up a space for Son, he'll never get premier league sharp sitting on the bench and coming on for 7 minutes at the end .

Also Dembele and Alli could be interesting against weaker teams
 

CoopsieDeadpool

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2012
18,257
70,419
Bentaleb knows create spaces.
That is the difference. Carroll, mason and other plays in the axis directly, Nabil creates space and frees up space for Eriksen, kane ...

Poch system does not work because Alli works on the feet of Kane, Carroll often goes ahead and leaves Dier alone in CM. Last season Harry was more comfortable but not now!

Moussa he's not the Messia ( draws with him too) arrives late in the game!
Here you are all footix!

ps: With his country, Nabil scored 3 goals.


Absolute, unequivocal nonsense!

And what the heck does 3 goals for Algeria have to do with anything? Townsend has 3 goals for England, so he should be playing for us too?
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
39,971
95,534
Bentaleb knows create spaces.
That is the difference. Carroll, mason and other plays in the axis directly, Nabil creates space and frees up space for Eriksen, kane ...

Poch system does not work because Alli works on the feet of Kane, Carroll often goes ahead and leaves Dier alone in CM. Last season Harry was more comfortable but not now!

Moussa he's not the Messia ( draws with him too) arrives late in the game!
Here you are all footix!

ps: With his country, Nabil scored 3 goals.
Also bright like dogs bright?
 

Sp3akerboxxx

Adoption: Nabil Bentaleb
Apr 4, 2006
5,428
8,184
I'm also a bit concerned we're going to drop off in the second half of the season if Poch doesn't start rotating a bit more.

Will some of these guys be fatigued in the weeks to come...

I think it was bwin who did an analysis of the entirety of his managerial career, and deduced that performance has only dropped off significantly in the second half of the season once in his career. In his second season at espanyol I think. The rest of the time results have remained about the same.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
18,013
We have more midfielders, of more varieties, with more skill, and bigger bollocks, than you can shake a stick at.

We are missing a striker.















Bleeding obvious really.
 

Danny1

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2006
5,930
18,907
I have just gone through every match looking at our starting 11, and our middle pairings are

EPL
Man U (a) 0-1 = Dier & Bentaleb
Stoke (h) 2-2 = Mason & Dier
Leicester (a) 1-1 = Mason & Dier
Everton (h) 0-0 = Dier & Bentaleb
Sunderland (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Palace (h) 1-0 = Dier & Alli
Man C (h) 4-1 = Dier & Alli
Swansea (a) 2-2 = Dier & Alli
Liverpool (h) 0-0 = Dembelle & Alli
Bournemouth (a) 5-1 = Dier & Alli
A Villa (h) 3-1 = Dier & Alli
Arsenal (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
West Ham (h) 4-1 = Dier, & Dembele
Chelsea (h) 0-0 = Dier, Dembele & Mason
WBA (a) 1-1 = Dier & Dembele
Newcastle (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
Southampton (a) 2-0 = Dier & Dembele
Norwich (h) 3-0 = Dier & Dembele
Watford (a) 2-1 = Carroll & Dembele, though Poch played a 3-4-2-1
Everton (a) 1-1 = Dier & Carroll
Leicester (h) 0-1 = Dier & Carroll
EL
Qarabag (h) 3-1 = Dier & Carroll
Monaco (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
Anderlect (a) 1-2 = Dier & Dembele
Anderlect (h) 2-1 = Mason & Dier
Qarabag (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Monaco (h) 4-1 = Dier & Carroll
CoC
Arsenal (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
FA Cup
Leicester (h) 2-2 = Dier & Carroll

I think Carroll is just not suited to play v Premier teams, or just not with Dier as the only league game we have won with him starting was v Watford and with Dembele

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P4 - W3 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0

This is important to look at I think & a very good indicator. I dont think that Tom Carroll is a bad player, I just dont think that you can have him & Dier together as you miss a man from the middle of the park driving forward ala Mason, Alli or Dembele.
 

fletch82

Well-Known Member
Aug 23, 2015
2,671
8,550
I thought we played our most effective football with Alli and dier as the 2

Then poch just changed it not really sure why but it's been sporadic ever since imo
 

Hoddle&Waddle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,450
17,904
I thought we played our most effective football with Alli and dier as the 2

Then poch just changed it not really sure why but it's been sporadic ever since imo
Spot on IMO. I'm assuming Poch made the change to get Alli's pace into the attack which lacked some, but for me Alli was much better deeper.
 

schwinebikkje

Member
Aug 31, 2012
23
46
Alli and Mason both likes to run in behind from the deep. Those runs are difficult to defend against. Carroll, Dembele and Bentaleb doesn't do that. And when Eriksen Lamela and Chadli plays there are to many players wanting the ball inn front of the defence and we get to static and that makes us easy to defend against.
 

Blake Griffin

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2011
14,354
39,564
it amazes me that the dier and alli combo has gotten good results as when the two play together we end up with a 5-0-5 formation. maybe having a midfield is overrated.
 

dagraham

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,267
46,424
I'm also a bit concerned we're going to drop off in the second half of the season if Poch doesn't start rotating a bit more.

Will some of these guys be fatigued in the weeks to come...

It's already started mate.
 

Cravenspurs

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2011
2,864
3,680
I thought we played our most effective football with Alli and dier as the 2

Then poch just changed it not really sure why but it's been sporadic ever since imo

I like Alli sitting deeper and Dembele up with the front 4. Thought Dembele pressing higher up made such a difference. Alli can still make his deep runs.

The great thing about our midfield is how versatile it is. So much switching of positions.
 

Cheds

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
275
469
I have just gone through every match looking at our starting 11, and our middle pairings are

EPL
Man U (a) 0-1 = Dier & Bentaleb
Stoke (h) 2-2 = Mason & Dier
Leicester (a) 1-1 = Mason & Dier
Everton (h) 0-0 = Dier & Bentaleb
Sunderland (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Palace (h) 1-0 = Dier & Alli
Man C (h) 4-1 = Dier & Alli
Swansea (a) 2-2 = Dier & Alli
Liverpool (h) 0-0 = Dembelle & Alli
Bournemouth (a) 5-1 = Dier & Alli
A Villa (h) 3-1 = Dier & Alli
Arsenal (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
West Ham (h) 4-1 = Dier, & Dembele
Chelsea (h) 0-0 = Dier, Dembele & Mason
WBA (a) 1-1 = Dier & Dembele
Newcastle (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
Southampton (a) 2-0 = Dier & Dembele
Norwich (h) 3-0 = Dier & Dembele
Watford (a) 2-1 = Carroll & Dembele, though Poch played a 3-4-2-1
Everton (a) 1-1 = Dier & Carroll
Leicester (h) 0-1 = Dier & Carroll
EL
Qarabag (h) 3-1 = Dier & Carroll
Monaco (a) 1-1 = Dier & Alli
Anderlect (a) 1-2 = Dier & Dembele
Anderlect (h) 2-1 = Mason & Dier
Qarabag (a) 1-0 = Mason & Dier
Monaco (h) 4-1 = Dier & Carroll
CoC
Arsenal (h) 1-2 = Dier & Carroll
FA Cup
Leicester (h) 2-2 = Dier & Carroll

I think Carroll is just not suited to play v Premier teams, or just not with Dier as the only league game we have won with him starting was v Watford and with Dembele

in the League
Mason & Dier = P3 - W1 - D2 - L0
Dier & Alli = P6 - W4 - D2 - L0
Dier & Dembele = P4 - W3 - D1 - L0
Dier & Carroll = P3 - W0 - D1 - L2
Dier & Bentaleb = P2 - W0 - D1 - L1
Dembele & Carroll = P1 - W1 - D0 - L0
Dier, Mason & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0
Alli & Dembele = P1 - W0 - D1 - L0


Wow ,says it all really...Dier & Alli or Dembele looks to be the most efficient pairing..
 

NEVILLEB

Well-Known Member
Nov 6, 2006
6,892
6,630
It's more likely we're missing a top form Eriksen.

Picking out killer passes is his job and he's not been doing it as well as he can.

I like Mason but he's really competing with Alli and Dembele and isn't as good IMO.
 

JonnySpurs

SC Veteran
Jun 4, 2004
5,424
12,785
I have to admit that I feel uneasy about the fact that most of last season we had Mason & Bentaleb playing week in and week out and now they are almost nowhere to be seen. Granted, this is largely because of injury but even so, I'm concerned that Nabil doesn't seem to be getting a chance to get himself back up to speed and Mason can't seem to stay fit.

I like Tom Carroll but I think I'd prefer him coming off the bench at the moment. I honestly think that Dier needs someone grafting alongside him like Dembele, Mason or Bentaleb because he doesn't have to worry about them. With Carroll we lose something defensively and it affects Dier's game.

I'd fully expect Dier and Dembele to play together tomorrow with Eriksen, Alli and Lamela ahead of them. That's generally been our best combination of 5 in the middle of the park so we need to get back to that.

I think we will win tomorrow and possibly even win well and it will get us back into our rhythm. That said though, I long for the return of Mason and Bentaleb and seeing them being regularly rotated into the starting 11.

Mason, Bentaleb, Dier and Dembele is a really good crop of midfielders to rotate in the two double pivot roles. Carroll supports them but should only be started when the opposition are less physical in the middle and he has time to pick his passes.
 

maltahotspur

Always look on the bright side of life
Oct 29, 2007
2,617
2,406
The fact of the matter is not which midfield pairing start for us, it's that we are not putting the spherical leather into the net!

We have been creating numerous and countless chances to win games comfortably but most of our finishing has been dire to say the least. Against Leicester, besides missing some glaring goal scoring opportunities, we faced a keeper who stopped everything that came his way, credit should be acknowledged when merited.

Hence, I don't endorse those who insist with the argument of shortcomings by any of our mid-fielders, it has more to do with our lack of fire power.
 

KenTHFC

Professional Lurker
Jan 8, 2015
583
1,582
Loved the Dier-Alli combo with Dembele ahead of them. It worked to devastating effect. Then Poch decided, like all other managers before him, that Dembele was better deep which he proved he wasn't. We played best with Dembele at CAM, really have no idea why Poch changed it.
 
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