Jose Mourinho

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

No he doesn’t look at his Porto and inter Milan team.

Porto winning the CL was his best ever achievement, 17 years ago when football was very different and he was a very different coach.

At Inter he did a good job but he still didn't do anything like Poch did with us. Inter were champions before he joined them. He did well to win the CL.

He hasn't built a team on a shoe-string budget since his Porto days 17 years ago. He also isn't the same manager anymore and hasn't been since the Chelsea doctor incident (I know this without wanting to say too much). And football has moved on without him. He's shown no signs of updating his philosophy, or looking to be a more progressive manager.

 

[dudu]

One of the reasons our players are so tired isn't just our injuries (look at how many games Wolves have played with a similar squad size if not smaller). It's because of our style of play.

We surrender possession and chase the ball across our own half for large periods, shuffling constantly from side to side. Constantly defending requires a high amount of focus, this is incredibly tiring when you are doing it for large periods.

Then when we do eventually win it, we are so deep that we have to run 40/50/60/70 yards upfield to try and put together any meaningful attack. Every single time. This drains our stamina massively and it's one of the reasons we are seeing even worse decision making than usual in the final third.

It's a constant drain on our players, they are constantly either in full focus trying to defend deep or flying up-field like lunatics to try and counter-attack over massive distances. Simply not sustainable and bear in mind we were doing this even when we had Kane and Son.

The best counter-attacking teams, teams like Pool and Leicester for example are both excellent, they both mix up their counter-attacks with periods of possession play, in which they control the match, keep the ball, slow/speed up the tempo, make the opposition chase the ball around the pitch to tire them out. They make the opposition do the work for large periods, which leaves them tired and exposed for more focused and timed counter-attacks.

They also often win the ball back mid block and spring from a slightly higher position, with less ground to cover.

For me, the biggest difference between Wolves and us is they they have an extremely settled squad full of players who know each other's games having been with their manager for a few years. We have an extremely unsettled squad of players who aren't familiar with each other or the manager.

FFS we had 66% of the possession against them, they were doing all the running around after us.

They are just better as a team than we are at the moment.

 

[olliec]

Porto winning the CL was his best ever achievement, 17 years ago when football was very different and he was a very different coach.

At Inter he did a good job but he still didn't do anything like Poch did with us. Inter were champions before he joined them. He did well to win the CL.

He hasn't built a team on a shoe-string budget since his Porto days 17 years ago. He also isn't the same manager anymore and hasn't been since the Chelsea doctor incident (I know this without wanting to say too much). And football has moved on without him. He's shown no signs of updating his philosophy, or looking to be a more progressive manager.

It’s just not right to judge him when we have a completely depleted squad ridiculed with injuries. Just give the man a chance and season before we make a judgement!

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I have mentioned this previously, all we are doing is chasing down constantly chasing and trying to catch up with play. No wonder we are knackered.

No problem onder our players are playing anywhere close to their best and no wonder players seem frustrated.

I also mentioned that Jose needs improve in his approach to bring out the best of the players.

And when we do get the ball the plan is to counter attack and run 30-40 yards in transitions, doing that all game will fire anyone out.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

And when we do get the ball the plan is to counter attack and run 30-40 yards in transitions, doing that all game will fire anyone out.

While it's probably a fair point, it's what Everton do, and I have seen people in this thread suggest Everton play a better form of football to us, which I'm not sure I understand if they do the same things as us.

Food for thought.

 

[Nick-TopSpursMan]

Quality response, but also false - we were scoring for fun ...

Another go?

Scoring for fun? In December after the Utd game, we scored 5 against Burnley, played well that day. But after that in our next 5 PL games up to and including Southampton when Kane went off injured late second half, we scored 6 goals in the following 5 games, that's not really scoring for fun. We could score goals but we were never really in control of games.

But it's not just about the scoring, it's about the WAY we play. It's not and wasn't sustainable. I had the same arguments with people over AVB, they were clinging to positives saying we're getting results but it wasn't sustainable and eventually everything collapsed as it was always going to.

You can't allow every team to dominate you. You have to play with some control in matches, both defensively and offensively. You take the pressure off your defence by keeping the ball. You work your way up the pitch so that you don't have to cover immense ground on every attack.

I totally get Son and Kane being out affects us but the style of play with and without them was still very much the same in most games. Surrender possession, lump the ball to Kane or make a 40-70 yard counter attack play. We still had no control over matches.

 

[spursfan77]

You're just asking for disappointment mate.
Just accept it now and you'll feel better for it.
Its the hope...

I just can’t I’m afraid!

I just think back to how many times this group of players have pulled us Ofer the line. Sure they’ve let us down lots in big games but ultimately they’ve done enough to pull us through. We are yet to see that under Mourinho but if there is one manager that you’d think would be able to harness that type of mindset it’s him. He needs to find it in the players. If they still have it or course. There’s a big question mark over that.

 

[Bobbins]

Porto winning the CL was his best ever achievement, 17 years ago when football was very different and he was a very different coach.

At Inter he did a good job but he still didn't do anything like Poch did with us. Inter were champions before he joined them. He did well to win the CL.

He hasn't built a team on a shoe-string budget since his Porto days 17 years ago. He also isn't the same manager anymore and hasn't been since the Chelsea doctor incident (I know this without wanting to say too much). And football has moved on without him. He's shown no signs of updating his philosophy, or looking to be a more progressive manager.

Not sure what you could tell us about that incident that hasn’t already been reported in the press? Perhaps an insight into what you know without giving specific details?

 

[King of Otters]

Any mention of Poch in this thread should be censored so we can all move forward. He did an amazing job here for 4 years, then lost it at the end. He's gone now and he aint coming back.

The question which is far more worthy of discussion is whether or not we replaced him with the right man. I like Mourinho, and was on board with the appointment, but I'm revising my opinion of that with every godawful game we play.

He's been seriously unlucky with injuries, but at the same time is not helping his cause with this ultra-negative style of play.

Injuries or not, if the remainder of the season plays out like the past couple of months, his position is going to come under huge pressure.

 

[rez9000]

100% agree that we should stand by the club and support Jose rather than just slagging him off.

However your main argument is basically "my opinion is bleeding obvious and everyone else is mad to think otherwise - it's logical!".

In Poch's last season many of us, myself included, defended him to the hilt and demanded more time due to all of the mitigating factors. We were tired from the world cup! The stadium was a distraction! We had injuries! Next season everything was bound to be fine and dandy.

We all know how that worked out.

Now I'm not saying we should sack Jose right now or expect him to win us the league - but I do think it's completely natural that some fans are expressing concern about what they're witnessing on the pitch. And you know what? They might be right. Jose might genuinely be past it and might not turn things around next season. But according you you even having that opinion is mad and illogical? No - it's just an opinion based on the evidence of his recent history at Man Utd and the caveman football we've been playing at times. Many Man Utd fans felt the same way as you do during Jose's reign - there were mitigating circumstances; he's a proven winner; the football will improve... Ask them what they think of him now.

Should we give him time? Yes.

Should we back the team as fans? Absolutely.

But are we illogical fools for thinking there's a chance Jose was a bad appointment? Not in the slightest.

I’m saying nothing of the sort, Wolfy.

I’m saying one should apply logic to the situation and not engage in unleavened emotionalism nor short-term thinking.

When people complain about the football being “bad”, and suggesting that this is entirely Mourinho’s fault and cast aspersions about his abilities they’re not expressing an opinion, they’re indulging a false premise - false because they have no evidence to back it up without ignoring mitigating factors. That’s not opinion, that’s just a screed.

Doing so in the face of evidence and without using critical thinking is just as egregious as believing one can see something that others can’t (which my first paragraph I think rather suggests I don’t).

My concern isn’t the ins and outs of what is happening with the playing side, it’s the tone that some are employing which is breeding a toxic atmosphere for the majority who want to have a discussion. I have to say, and I apologise, but I resent a tiny bit being dragged over the coals for asking for a bit of reasonableness when we have posters calling the manager ‘a wanker’ and wanting him to ‘f*** off’ or accusing him of only taking the job because he doesn’t want to leave London - as if that’s some kind of sin! But I’ll forgive you as you’re not an unreasonable poster (?).

There are one or two (and I should stress that I’m only calling out the outliers, not the majority - as my last paragraph says, I have no issue with those I disagree with per se, only those very few who want to rant and rave and ruin the chat for everyone else) who aren’t opposed to Mourinho because of the reasons they claim, but because he managed Chelsea. Posters who keep harping on about his salary. As if the amount is somehow significant. So £15 million is not commensurate with the level of football we’re playing? How is the calculation made? If Jan misses a tackle should Mourinho’s salary be reduced to £14,999,998.56p? It’s any stick they can find to beat him with for some.

And I hope you’ll further forgive me, but at no point did I say that those thinking that Mourinho may not have the ability anymore were wrong - I said that they don’t have the evidence YET to make that claim and my criticism of them is that they are poisoning the debate not whether they’re right or wrong. And I’m actually fact, what you’re doing by saying they may be right, is actually undermine their positions because they have no evidence YET to make the claims they are making. You say it yourself - they may well be right but they make their claims based on instinct and not reason.

At no point did I categorically say that Mourinho IS going to be successful, just that, as you yourself have said, he needs time to show whether he can or can’t be. Few conclusions can be drawn from four months in the job so why are some of us having to constantly raise the same points over and over, counselling patience and raising mitigating issues that the vast majority (not just me) accept as being valid factors, while some truly appalling things are being raised which you’ve not seemed to have wanted to scrutinise?

If the debate was reasonable and I’d posted what I did, then sure, drag me before the altar to account for my intemperance. The thing is though, if the debate had been reasonable, I wouldn’t have posted that kind of diatribe in the first place.

Anyway, just wanted to put my side of things to you. Peace and Spurs-related lovings to you as always.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

All i'm asking is for the players that he has available are played to their strengths.

Everybody wants that mate. The difference in our fan base is that some can see the bigger picture and are prepared to wait for next season whilst others want it now and only now. We will never be able to play each player to their own individual strengths whilst we have no strikers. Moura and Bergwijn will continue to be used as makeshift forwards until Kane and Son are back because that’s all Jose can do right now. Some just refuse to accept that.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Well we do know because Mourinho has to spend money to be successful. We also know for a fact that Poch didn't need to spend money to be successful, he coached players to improve them instead and was one of the best coaches at doing that.

Sort of yes , but imo much more important was that he motivated players to run and run .It was our energy that was behind the Poch surge.
Toby said ' Without our effort we are just an ordinary team', says it all . Amazing thing because , before that and since the players stopped running for Poch , we've never seen a team so energised at Spurs.

 

[spursfan77]

One of the reasons our players are so tired isn't just our injuries (look at how many games Wolves have played with a similar squad size if not smaller). It's because of our style of play.

We surrender possession and chase the ball across our own half for large periods, shuffling constantly from side to side. Constantly defending requires a high amount of focus, this is incredibly tiring when you are doing it for large periods.

Then when we do eventually win it, we are so deep that we have to run 40/50/60/70 yards upfield to try and put together any meaningful attack. Every single time. This drains our stamina massively and it's one of the reasons we are seeing even worse decision making than usual in the final third.

It's a constant drain on our players, they are constantly either in full focus trying to defend deep or flying up-field like lunatics to try and counter-attack over massive distances. Simply not sustainable and bear in mind we were doing this even when we had Kane and Son.

The best counter-attacking teams, teams like Pool and Leicester for example are both excellent, they both mix up their counter-attacks with periods of possession play, in which they control the match, keep the ball, slow/speed up the tempo, make the opposition chase the ball around the pitch to tire them out. They make the opposition do the work for large periods, which leaves them tired and exposed for more focused and timed counter-attacks.

They also often win the ball back mid block and spring from a slightly higher position, with less ground to cover.

I agree but how do we change it though?

The players are running on empty. I suppose we could change and play higher up the pitch but the three that started against Norwich can’t play a pressing game, they are spent. So you have to change the personnel. Who can we play instead at the moment? Sessegnon Parrott and gedson as a front three. That’s a big downgrade in terms of proven goal scoring and physicality.

In short we are fucked!

 

[cliff jones]

One of the reasons our players are so tired isn't just our injuries (look at how many games Wolves have played with a similar squad size if not smaller). It's because of our style of play.

We surrender possession and chase the ball across our own half for large periods, shuffling constantly from side to side. Constantly defending requires a high amount of focus, this is incredibly tiring when you are doing it for large periods.

Then when we do eventually win it, we are so deep that we have to run 40/50/60/70 yards upfield to try and put together any meaningful attack. Every single time. This drains our stamina massively and it's one of the reasons we are seeing even worse decision making than usual in the final third.

It's a constant drain on our players, they are constantly either in full focus trying to defend deep or flying up-field like lunatics to try and counter-attack over massive distances. Simply not sustainable and bear in mind we were doing this even when we had Kane and Son.

The best counter-attacking teams, teams like Pool and Leicester for example are both excellent, they both mix up their counter-attacks with periods of possession play, in which they control the match, keep the ball, slow/speed up the tempo, make the opposition chase the ball around the pitch to tire them out. They make the opposition do the work for large periods, which leaves them tired and exposed for more focused and timed counter-attacks.

They also often win the ball back mid block and spring from a slightly higher position, with less ground to cover.

excellent post mate. Against both Wolves and Norwich we did take our breathers when we had the ball, but I think the main problem in recent weeks has been the lack of a hold up player up top to work off. Apart from Stevie B, as others have said the rest of them play with their head down, prefer the dribble past everyone or try fancy flicks or nutmegs that hardly ever come off. There's no time for ohters to join in. We lose it and get countered on. Son is obviously good for a goal but is also guilty of this.

We are fcked until Kane comes back. But we must sign another forward who can also play this role in the summer.

 

[Oh Teddy Teddy]

Any mention of Poch in this thread should be censored so we can all move forward. He did an amazing job here for 4 years, then lost it at the end. He's gone now and he aint coming back.

The question which is far more worthy of discussion is whether or not we replaced him with the right man. I like Mourinho, and was on board with the appointment, but I'm revising my opinion of that with every godawful game we play.

He's been seriously unlucky with injuries, but at the same time is not helping his cause with this ultra-negative style of play.

Injuries or not, if the remainder of the season plays out like the past couple of months, his position is going to come under huge pressure.

Agree with this totally.

Still, will be a novel sight when Burnley outplay us with better football tomorrow.

 

[fedupyid]

Can someone tell me how did Mourinho earn this time everyone says to give him? Why had Poch not earned this magical time to turn things around?

 

[Japhet]

Quality response, but also false - we were scoring for fun ...

Another go?

Fun.............................fun.....................(scrathes chin and looks pensive)..................................Oh, yes! I think I remember now.

 

[King of Otters]

Agree with this totally.

Still, will be a novel sight when Burnley outplay us with better football tomorrow.

Yep, and then a mauling by the mighty Leipzig to come after that.

I literally dread every game we play at this point.

 

[Timberwolf]

I’m saying nothing of the sort, Wolfy.

I’m saying one should apply logic to the situation and not engage in unleavened emotionalism nor short-term thinking.

When people complain about the football being “bad”, and suggesting that this is entirely Mourinho’s fault and cast aspersions about his abilities they’re not expressing an opinion, they’re indulging a false premise - false because they have no evidence to back it up without ignoring mitigating factors. That’s not opinion, that’s just a screed.

Doing so in the face of evidence and without using critical thinking is just as egregious as believing one can see something that others can’t (which my first paragraph I think rather suggests I don’t).

My concern isn’t the ins and outs of what is happening with the playing side, it’s the tone that some are employing which is breeding a toxic atmosphere for the majority who want to have a discussion. I have to say, and I apologise, but I resent a tiny bit being dragged over the coals for asking for a bit of reasonableness when we have posters calling the manager ‘a wanker’ and wanting him to ‘f*** off’ or accusing him of only taking the job because he doesn’t want to leave London - as if that’s some kind of sin! But I’ll forgive you as you’re not an unreasonable poster (?).

There are one or two (and I should stress that I’m only calling out the outliers, not the majority - as my last paragraph says, I have no issue with those I disagree with per se, only those very few who want to rant and rave and ruin the chat for everyone else) who aren’t opposed to Mourinho because of the reasons they claim, but because he managed Chelsea. Posters who keep harping on about his salary. As if the amount is somehow significant. So £15 million is not commensurate with the level of football we’re playing? How is the calculation made? If Jan misses a tackle should Mourinho’s salary be reduced to £14,999,998.56p? It’s any stick they can find to beat him with for some.

And I hope you’ll further forgive me, but at no point did I say that those thinking that Mourinho may not have the ability anymore were wrong - I said that they don’t have the evidence YET to make that claim and my criticism of them is that they are poisoning the debate not whether they’re right or wrong. And I’m actually fact, what you’re doing by saying they may be right, is actually undermine their positions because they have no evidence YET to make the claims they are making. You say it yourself - they may well be right but they make their claims based on instinct and not reason.

At no point did I categorically say that Mourinho IS going to be successful, just that, as you yourself have said, he needs time to show whether he can or can’t be. Few conclusions can be drawn from four months in the job so why are some of us having to constantly raise the same points over and over, counselling patience and raising mitigating issues that the vast majority (not just me) accept as being valid factors, while some truly appalling things are being raised which you’ve not seemed to have wanted to scrutinise?

If the debate was reasonable and I’d posted what I did, then sure, drag me before the altar to account for my intemperance. The thing is though, if the debate had been reasonable, I wouldn’t have posted that kind of diatribe in the first place.

Anyway, just wanted to put my side of things to you. Peace and Spurs-related lovings to you as always.

Ok fair play - good post and sorry if I was a bit reductive of your argument. As I said before, I do completely agree with you re: the short termists. He does deserve time and support and to write him off now or slip into mindless criticism is both unhelpful and needless (although personally I shall remain cautiously pessimistic)

 

[Drink!Drink!]

so, fair to say, the right manager will make us "more than the sum of our parts". Poch managed this.
Even with all our injury problems, and squad deficiencies (you own that Mr Levy) we are still managing to be less than the sum of our parts.
We are playing teams with weaker squads, and lesser talented players, compared to what we have now, and they are playing us off the park for long periods of games.

and many of us are just plain bored with the turgid football being served up. Can't see much optimism at the moment.