Jose Mourinho

[Metalhead]

You have to laugh really - so many people in here putting Mourinho down and saying that he is finished or yesterday's man yet the fact is that only 2/3 years ago he brought more success to a club than any manager of Spurs has been able to achieve in decades. You have to wonder what planet these people are on.

Also, how many people would have leveled that accusation against Ranieri before he won the title with Leicester? Ok it was a very specific way of playing but that's the accusation leveled at Mourinho. It only worked for a couple of seasons but then few people are expecting him to be around for seasons to come anyway.

 

[Thewobbler]

And you my friend are the epitome of an old timer, afraid to move with the times.

Football has changed like it or not. What you need to remember is while modern football fans might get on your tits. We live in a world of modern players too.

They no longer grow up dreaming of an fa cup final at Wembley.

An fa cup win won’t get you the best players.and it won’t keep you the best players. Harry Kane isn’t going to stay because we win a domestic cup. But if we look like we are challenging for the champions league and or league then he just might.

Kane won't stay if we're always nearly men or if we only win a league cup. But I'm sure he would like to have a medal or 2 whilst he's here

 

[dudu]

Kane won't stay if we're always nearly men or if we only win a league cup. But I'm sure he would like to have a medal or 2 whilst he's here

Exactly. He didn't even play that night in Amsterdam so what is he gonna tell his grandkids. "I remember how it felt being on that bench when a load of other players beat Ajax, it was the high point of my career, so pleased I have this DVD to watch of me not playing in it."

He will want to be here more if we are winning than not. Players don't play at this level just to bask in the experience of winning a game dramatically. They want medals.

 

[Kiedis]

Firstly, as a general, non-Mourinho-specific point, I don't think any particular style is necessary for getting league points on the board in modern day football - see Leicester 2015/16 for proof. Secondly, as a Mourinho-specific point, I think that Jose finishing second in the Premier League with Man Utd in 2017/18 with what was widely perceived to not be the second best squad in the league is proof that Mourinho knows how to pick up league points in modern football too. His track record speaks for itself and hasn't got anything to prove - whether Spurs as a club put him in a position to succeed is the big question for me.

That United team was a real outlier in that how it profiled statistically in terms of defense and attack wasn't at all sustainable. That they wouldn't keep getting away with performances like that was very much on the cards. It was like our 18/19 season. We got away with poor performances for a very long time until it caught up to us and we stopped getting the rub of the green.

But it depends how you analyse football; I see that 17/18 United team as a train wreck waiting to happen, others may see it in a different way.

And in terms of what the recipe for consistent performances and results is, I mostly look at what the best teams do these days. The best teams are generally able to impose themselves on the opponent with the ball, win it back quickly high up the pitch and put opponents under sustained pressure, while naturally also knowing how and when to counter attack.

And that's what I think Mourinho is thinking about when he says he's reinvented himself. I'm just not sure he has what it takes to coach that style. And even if I've seen signs in some games of stuff that he didn't set his teams up to do in previous years, I'm not sure setting up in bunker mode every time we face tough teams does him any favours if he's trying to instill a playing style like this.

"We shall press high and get at them! ...unless they're kinda good, then we'll just pray we're still in the game with 15 minutes to go".

 

[swarvsta]

This thread is truly embarrassing.

Many on here seem to be obsessed with what other club’s fans think.

Modern football fans - desperate for one-upmanship. Not able to enjoy winning FA Cups or League Cups because a Chelsea fan will say ‘they are small time’.

Going round in circles, page by page, with talk of winning with style, Jose is finished, Jose has won more than Spurs, Jose is an ultra defensive coach, Spurs only ever play with swagger and style.

It’s enough to make your eyes bleed.

I am truly saddened by modern football. I’m not even old. 34. But football is unrecognisable from when I started going along with my dad when I was 5.

I think I will stay out of this thread now - it’s as embarrassing as it is toxic. It’s not a debate or discussion - it’s people with agendas or personal views on football that will never change.

 

[McFlash]

And you my friend are the epitome of an old timer, afraid to move with the times.

Football has changed like it or not. What you need to remember is while modern football fans might get on your tits. We live in a world of modern players too.

They no longer grow up dreaming of an fa cup final at Wembley.

An fa cup win won’t get you the best players.and it won’t keep you the best players. Harry Kane isn’t going to stay because we win a domestic cup. But if we look like we are challenging for the champions league and or league then he just might.

Maybe I am but a large part of football, for me, is about history and tradition.
It's probably why a lot of us support this club.

I think players also like history and tradition too, otherwise people like Kane wouldn't be so eager to break the many records that he so obviously keeps an eye on.

Moving with the times shouldn't mean that we forget the past.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

"We shall press high and get at them! ...unless they're kinda good, then we'll just pray we're still in the game with 15 minutes to go".

I don't think Mourinho has promised high press. A high press is naturally flawed because you win the ball back ( win it back sometimes, most of the time you just make sure that the opponent drops the ball) - and then what? Now you are in possession, but your opponent is still defence heavy as you pressed them so high they could maintain their defensive shape throughout, and you are tasked with going though the motions trying to break them down again. Far superior is pressing correctly, which is not inherently a high press. Press correctly, and you win the ball back in a moment that the opponent is stretched, imbalanced and not defence heavy, which gives you a far easier job trying to create a chance. However, it's easy to say. But it's not something you can just waltz into the dressing room and change overnight, especially not vs. good opponents.

 

[jimbo]

That United team was a real outlier in that how it profiled statistically in terms of defense and attack wasn't at all sustainable. That they wouldn't keep getting away with performances like that was very much on the cards. It was like our 18/19 season. We got away with poor performances for a very long time until it caught up to us and we stopped getting the rub of the green.

But it depends how you analyse football; I see that 17/18 United team as a train wreck waiting to happen, others may see it in a different way.

And in terms of what the recipe for consistent performances and results is, I mostly look at what the best teams do these days. The best teams are generally able to impose themselves on the opponent with the ball, win it back quickly high up the pitch and put opponents under sustained pressure, while naturally also knowing how and when to counter attack.

And that's what I think Mourinho is thinking about when he says he's reinvented himself. I'm just not sure he has what it takes to coach that style. And even if I've seen signs in some games of stuff that he didn't set his teams up to do in previous years, I'm not sure setting up in bunker mode every time we face tough teams does him any favours if he's trying to instill a playing style like this.

"We shall press high and get at them! ...unless they're kinda good, then we'll just pray we're still in the game with 15 minutes to go".

It's a good point, my hope is that he's looking to implement a style/system similar to the way Bayern are playing this season - the early formations hint at that but we have to wait and see. We know he's talked about fast counter-attacks, and both the signings and the shape prior to injuries suggests that's definitely a big part. What's not so clear is the defense and midfield shape - I'd like to think that we will move towards retaining possession better, further up the pitch (like the change he implemented at Inter) but I have no doubt it will take time for him to do that if that is indeed what he's planning. I think about the Olympiacos game as an example of his willingness to go on the attack - taking off a defensive midfielder for an extra attacking midfielder to play with a front 5 plus the attacking fullback. We haven't seen much of that since, but our personnel options for the forward positions are slim.

The problem at the moment is we have both new signings unused to the league/their team-mates and very low confidence given the shit-show this season has largely been. That's been in evidence quite a lot, with the conceding of late goals against West Ham and Bournemouth prime examples of our current mental fragility despite having established a 3 goal lead that should have been far more comfortable. It will take time to transition things the way he wants and I can't now see us establishing much in the way of flow before next season. If we're still in the hunt for a CL spot then I expect pragmatism will come first over trying to embed the desired style and shape. He essentially has a free hit this season and a fresh start the next so there's not really a good reason to risk results - to try and get which he is trying to mitigate our issues, which are many. The right signings in the right positions will obviously be key, but I don't think there's a risk of signing Mourinho players who are then surplus should it not work out - he'll want good players and those are always useful. Bringing in a DoF before the summer window opens would really help I think and it's disappointing the buzz around Campos has receded.

If we drop out of CL contention then we might see some more experimentation, but until then I can't really blame him for doing what he thinks is best for the team in terms of trying to eke out points. Our confidence is fragile and badly needs a boost - winning is more likely to give us that than losing with a good performance in my onion.

If we get into next season and there are no signs of improvement that would be the time to start asking serious questions about whether he is up to the job. I genuinely feel that he will prove the doubters wrong - he will desperately want to do exactly that and I believe that works in our favour.

 

[Norgie]

I think his new assistant will play a part in this, I can't see him wanting to play dull football, this is a transition period with a view on damage limitation, it's not the end product, far from it. Hopefully together they are masterminding a team and tactics to take on the top teams in the PL. Joao is young and I assume hungry and won't want the stigma of playing boring football, he will hopefully influence Mou in a good way.

 

[daryl hannah]

You know... Chelsea finished 10th or something the year before they regrouped and won the prem the following year.

I wonder...

 

[CowInAComa]

Maybe I am but a large part of football, for me, is about history and tradition.
It's probably why a lot of us support this club.

I think players also like history and tradition too, otherwise people like Kane wouldn't be so eager to break the many records that he so obviously keeps an eye on.

Moving with the times shouldn't mean that we forget the past.

Is our perceived style, not part of history and tradition too? The fact that in truth the mythical Spurs style has only ever really been evident rarely if at all since the 60s doesnt change the fact that there is a style we aspire to.

My whole family support Arsenal/liverpool/chelsea, not single spurs fan at home or among my friends growing up- if i hankered for supporting a trophy laden club it would have been so fucking easy for me. Didnt interest me one bit. I liked the crisp white shirts( to paraphrase Van Gaal?) , the supposed swagger. white hart lane. It might actually be somewhat of a myth, but in the occasional it comes together, i am as happy as larry, its what i signed up for.

 

[Kiedis]

I don't think Mourinho has promised high press. A high press is naturally flawed because you win the ball back ( win it back sometimes, most of the time you just make sure that the opponent drops the ball) - and then what? Now you are in possession, but your opponent is still defence heavy as you pressed them so high they could maintain their defensive shape throughout, and you are tasked with going though the motions trying to break them down again. Far superior is pressing correctly, which is not inherently a high press. Press correctly, and you win the ball back in a moment that the opponent is stretched, imbalanced and not defence heavy, which gives you a far easier job trying to create a chance. However, it's easy to say. But it's not something you can just waltz into the dressing room and change overnight, especially not vs. good opponents.

I'm just going from what I've seen us try at times. There were quite a bit of it going on vs. Villa, but we were pretty inconsistent in terms of how well we did it. We'll probably vary in our approach, but pressing high up very much seems like something he'll want us to do. And it's not always about winning the ball high up, most of the times it will lead to the opponent going long and direct, which is something most PL CBs will have no problem dealing with.

When we pressed high and well under Pochettino, it meant that we'd either get the ball back high up, or get it where we could start building from the back. It meant that attackers could stay high up the pitch and get the ball into feet in decent positions quite often as opposed to doing what Son often have to do these days; chase a fullback the length of the pitch, before having to sprint back again when we attack. And since we struggle with keeping possession long enough to get the players in the right positions to both attack and also having them well positioned to press when we lose the ball, then he spends a lot of energy sprinting up and down the pitch.

But yeah, very interested in seeing what the Mourinho endgame is.

 

[CowInAComa]

apparently Jose Mourinho can be divisive.

Anyone else getting that vibe?

 

[Metalhead]

apparently Jose Mourinho can be divisive.

Anyone else getting that vibe?

Poch was divisive by the end too sadly and had we had social media probably almost every manager we've ever had.

 

[shelfboy68]

Is our perceived style, not part of history and tradition too? The fact that in truth the mythical Spurs style has only ever really been evident rarely if at all since the 60s doesnt change the fact that there is a style we aspire to.

My whole family support Arsenal/liverpool/chelsea, not single spurs fan at home or among my friends growing up- if i hankered for supporting a trophy laden club it would have been so fucking easy for me. Didnt interest me one bit. I liked the crisp white shirts( to paraphrase Van Gaal?) , the supposed swagger. white hart lane. It might actually be somewhat of a myth, but in the occasional it comes together, i am as happy as larry, its what i signed up for.

Good for you mate

 

[McFlash]

Is our perceived style, not part of history and tradition too? The fact that in truth the mythical Spurs style has only ever really been evident rarely if at all since the 60s doesnt change the fact that there is a style we aspire to.

My whole family support Arsenal/liverpool/chelsea, not single spurs fan at home or among my friends growing up- if i hankered for supporting a trophy laden club it would have been so fucking easy for me. Didnt interest me one bit. I liked the crisp white shirts( to paraphrase Van Gaal?) , the supposed swagger. white hart lane. It might actually be somewhat of a myth, but in the occasional it comes together, i am as happy as larry, its what i signed up for.

It certainly is, I just think it's a little early to be hyper critical of Mourinho considering the situation that he/we are in.
A few games ago, I honestly thought I saw signs of what he is trying to do and at times, we were playing some excellent counter-attacking football.
Ok, the last couple of games has regressed somewhat but given the state of the squad, I'm willing to forgive that at the moment.

I also completely agree that if by next season we are still playing so defensively, then I will also begin to question the manager but at this moment in time, he gets a little leeway from me.

Ideally, I want us to win the cups with our famous swagger, while also challenging for the league and Champions League, I just understand that given our current state, it's going to take a bit of time, no matter who's in charge.

 

[Ionman34]

Is our perceived style, not part of history and tradition too? The fact that in truth the mythical Spurs style has only ever really been evident rarely if at all since the 60s doesnt change the fact that there is a style we aspire to.

My whole family support Arsenal/liverpool/chelsea, not single spurs fan at home or among my friends growing up- if i hankered for supporting a trophy laden club it would have been so fucking easy for me. Didnt interest me one bit. I liked the crisp white shirts( to paraphrase Van Gaal?) , the supposed swagger. white hart lane. It might actually be somewhat of a myth, but in the occasional it comes together, i am as happy as larry, its what i signed up for.

Leaving all of the other stuff to one side, I can respect that. It is a myth when you really look back at the majority of the Football we've played since the 60's but, as you say, it is something that we should aspire to.

And there is the operative word for us at the moment, "aspire." We haven't got close to that for over a season now, and won't for the remainder of this season as it really is damage limitation.

However, whilst some seem to have a singular focus on his Utd tenure, others are looking at the whole picture with his other tenures, particularly the recent ones at Inter, Real and Chelsea. They all scored a lot of goals and really played with swagger, but it was borne off the back of a solid structure and tactical approach. Get that in first and we'll see the expansive Football we crave as the confidence grows. Let's not forget that these other teams he managed scored a hatfull of goals, lots of "pleasure moments" to hark back to there, coupled with, we hope, the trophies to put the icing on the cake.

No reason why we can't have both is there?

 

[Ronwol196061]

Is our perceived style, not part of history and tradition too? The fact that in truth the mythical Spurs style has only ever really been evident rarely if at all since the 60s doesnt change the fact that there is a style we aspire to.

My whole family support Arsenal/liverpool/chelsea, not single spurs fan at home or among my friends growing up- if i hankered for supporting a trophy laden club it would have been so fucking easy for me. Didnt interest me one bit. I liked the crisp white shirts( to paraphrase Van Gaal?) , the supposed swagger. white hart lane. It might actually be somewhat of a myth, but in the occasional it comes together, i am as happy as larry, its what i signed up for.

Bring Back Ginola!!!!!

 

[CowInAComa]

Leaving all of the other stuff to one side, I can respect that. It is a myth when you really look back at the majority of the Football we've played since the 60's but, as you say, it is something that we should aspire to.

And there is the operative word for us at the moment, "aspire." We haven't got close to that for over a season now, and won't for the remainder of this season as it really is damage limitation.

However, whilst some seem to have a singular focus on his Utd tenure, others are looking at the whole picture with his other tenures, particularly the recent ones at Inter, Real and Chelsea. They all scored a lot of goals and really played with swagger, but it was borne off the back of a solid structure and tactical approach. Get that in first and we'll see the expansive Football we crave as the confidence grows. Let's not forget that these other teams he managed scored a hatfull of goals, lots of "pleasure moments" to hark back to there, coupled with, we hope, the trophies to put the icing on the cake.

No reason why we can't have both is there?

In all fairness, i think you will struggle to find anywhere where I have suggested I want him out or that he was the wrong choice, or we should have kept Poch or that Ive written him off . I have literally defended him in the very thread as results have been steady despite injuries and performances.

But i would say, i can see no reason why we people should get so defensive about some criticism of him on a discussion forum, that is literally the purpose of a forum. Matchday at the game, nothing annoys me more than constant whiners/booers in the stadium but forums, are exactly the place to let off steam and hang your opinions out.

If you want my honest current opinion, I was open to the idea of Jose right from the off, I thought we needed a *name* at that particular time rather than another promising young manager given our spiralling downturn. I was pleasantly surprised by his charisma and positivity and openness to being a bit Spurs and thought we were fairly entertaining and could see the germ of a plan. In the last few weeks I have been dismayed a little by his negative approach to handling bad sequence of events, it seems to me that he has sort refuge in excuses and old 'jose' patterns rather than being proactive. I simply dont believe with kane out we needed to resort to such passive and negative tactics (lets be honest we had gone there before Son) and we frankly got what we deserved against chelsea*2/Liepzig/utd and have been fairly lucky more than pragmatically astute in most of our other wins.

Discussions about style over substance and what constitutes 'enjoyment' are hypothetical. I am more than happy to give him time. In the meantime, I think we are much better than the awful football we are seeing, I think should absolutely be targeting top 4 and the FA cup, and I think we can do so without these needlessly passive tactics or endless excuses. I think we are better than that, even minus Kane and Son.

 

[Ronwol196061]

I think if Mourinho can sort out two problems it wlll be great. They are both in Midfield which is the core area we need sorted in my opinion.
One is getting NDombele to be able to play a more well rounded game. Im not sure what the problem is. Injuries? Fear? Laziness? Ego about his dribbling thinking he doesn't have to defend? Im not sure but sorting this out is huge

along with the DM position. getting Dier to be the main man in front of the back line,fitter and more effective or getting a Top notch DM. Those two and we will be more than ok