Jose Mourinho

[austinfh]

I’ve thought recently about Jose’s apparently amazing interview with Levy to get the job and how we heard from ITK and some sources that he had rethought his playing style and was going to really change his ways.

Of course the football we’ve seen so far has been far from scintillating and quite close to what we’d expect from a Jose team -pragmatic, sitting back, soaking up pressure, hitting teams on the break etc.

Does anyone think that possibly Jose might have used his old ways to try and secure Europe this season so that he might implement this new/revitalised way of playing next season? Of course it would probably take a pre season to get the players accustomed to his ideas. Or do we just think it will be more of the same as this season, just better drilled/focused?

 

[rossdapep]

I’ve thought recently about Jose’s apparently amazing interview with Levy to get the job and how we heard from ITK and some sources that he had rethought his playing style and was going to really change his ways.

Of course the football we’ve seen so far has been far from scintillating and quite close to what we’d expect from a Jose team -pragmatic, sitting back, soaking up pressure, hitting teams on the break etc.

Does anyone think that possibly Jose might have used his old ways to try and secure Europe this season so that he might implement this new/revitalised way of playing next season? Of course it would probably take a pre season to get the players accustomed to his ideas. Or do we just think it will be more of the same as this season, just better drilled/focused?

I think he's just focused on the foundations first. He did the same at United but once he tried to progress he came across many issues so reverted back to defensive type.

Let's see if it's different here. I don't think Sacramento will have done what he would have liked to yet.

The first thing we needed to do was arrest the slide and get that defence to reduce mistakes and improve organisation.

 

[teok]

I’ve thought recently about Jose’s apparently amazing interview with Levy to get the job and how we heard from ITK and some sources that he had rethought his playing style and was going to really change his ways.

Of course the football we’ve seen so far has been far from scintillating and quite close to what we’d expect from a Jose team -pragmatic, sitting back, soaking up pressure, hitting teams on the break etc.

Does anyone think that possibly Jose might have used his old ways to try and secure Europe this season so that he might implement this new/revitalised way of playing next season? Of course it would probably take a pre season to get the players accustomed to his ideas. Or do we just think it will be more of the same as this season, just better drilled/focused?

What does your heart tell you?

 

[C0YS]

The most amusing argument I see is Jose inherited an unbalanced squad. Poch had a broken Dembele, Kane was injured more, Winks was pretty much injured for a year, Dier was injured and Eriksen stopped playing. Poch was screwed by Levy despite warning him we need to refresh the squad. Heck, Poch was given GKN, Njie and Janssen prior to that. Can you imagine Mourinho going 3 windows without buying a player? Do you think he will stick around?

Jose had the same issues as Poch. People need to stop blaming Poch and then saying Jose inherited an unbalanced squad. That's a Levy problem.

I do think Jose did a good job results wise. Our defence is not better, we just don't have players racing to support attack now. Poch struggled against teams sitting back like Palace did on last day, and so did Jose. For me not much has changed. I do think the new Jose was there beginning when he took charge and I genuinely believed he could take that team into top 4 cos he only had to fix the defence but the team was a threat and on the front foot.

I do think Jose is still too scared to take on ManU and Chelsea and that mentality will filter through to players next season. I would love to see Jose back his players to take on the teams we need to beat to get back into top 4. I know people are harping on about he is a winner, but so was George Graham and he won the league cup for us yet we didn't back him like some back Jose. I would like us back on the front foot (it's why I supported Tottenham) but Levy then needs to back Jose with the right players.

This post isn't specifically directed at you.

I think this Poch vs Jose thing is so boring and so irrelevant. Let's move on. Poch was the best manager the club has had in my life, I wish we kept him, but Jose is now our manager. Similarly whose problem is it is all speculation, and who actually cares. The issue is now the squas is unbalanced, lets try and fix that.

This forum, this season in particular, has just been a spiral of negativity of whining and moaning largely about players and the managers with very little interesting discussion. Just people trying to pin the blame on whoever they like, be it particular players (pretty much all our players have been scapegoated this season), ENIC and managers whatevs. when in reality it was probably was a complex mixture of various factors.

We also have a large base of posters who simultaneously think our team is shit and still think we should be pushing for league titles. Some posters expectations are so out of touch with the reality of our situation. Which probably creates more negativity around managers and players.

We ended the season strongly, and there are lots of positives, and I hope we can come into next season and give everyone a fresh start. Jose will be under pressure unless his style changes. Playing bad football but winning football will win people over but not winning will cause issues. Because of Poch's overachieving, the expectations for some people will be to win something. When in reality CL qualification would actually be a success. Jose will need to win something though, or show strong progress (like comfortable CL position or pushing for the title) to keep people onside.

 

[C0YS]

I think he's just focused on the foundations first. He did the same at United but once he tried to progress he came across many issues so reverted back to defensive type.

Let's see if it's different here. I don't think Sacramento will have done what he would have liked to yet.

The first thing we needed to do was arrest the slide and get that defence to reduce mistakes and improve organisation.

I think it's been pointed out before that Sacramento is not an attack focused coach, but rather a counter attacking one, built on being hard to break down and countering with speed. imagine that is how we will try and develop, I suspect we will still set up largly defensively but be much quicker and better in transition going forward.

I still worry about games like Bournemouth or Palace (though in the end Palace being happy to not attack too much probably suited us) where the opposition is not particularly interested in attacking us. It's a problem for Atletico Madrid too, and this is where we need a little bit more invention in the team. We need an Eriksen type, or someone who can do something similar deeper in midfield. Though, maybe winks and Lo Celso can develop a bit more in that direction. Despite, criticism Winks has actually improved and added more variation to his passing recently, switching the play a lot more and that is positive for the future, as used to be something he really couldn't do.

 

[Japhet]

Ive been quoted on here as saying that "the football has been garbage from Jan 2019". Then Jose came in and has improved results but the football IMO has actually been worst than the last knockings of Poch. At best (again imo) just as bad.

To gloss over our dreadful football to prove that one is some sort of "real fan" is just as bad as glossing over the marked improvement in results imo. It IS possible to do both...in fact Jose and Kane pretty much acknowledged the same thing.

We also had a huge turnaround in luck when the Covid lockdown halted a shockingly bad spell and enabled us to get key players fit for the restart. Couple that with playing Newcastle and Leicester stripped bare of Centre Backs in the run in and I think we probably did pretty well. Sure, we had some rough calls with VAR, but without the lockdown happening when it did I dread to think where we might have finished.

 

[austinfh]

I think it's been pointed out before that Sacramento is not an attack focused coach, but rather a counter attacking one, built on being hard to break down and countering with speed. imagine that is how we will try and develop, I suspect we will still set up largly defensively but be much quicker and better in transition going forward.

I still worry about games like Bournemouth or Palace (though in the end Palace being happy to not attack too much probably suited us) where the opposition is not particularly interested in attacking us. It's a problem for Atletico Madrid too, and this is where we need a little bit more invention in the team. We need an Eriksen type, or someone who can do something similar deeper in midfield. Though, maybe winks and Lo Celso can develop a bit more in that direction. Despite, criticism Winks has actually improved and added more variation to his passing recently, switching the play a lot more and that is positive for the future, as used to be something he really couldn't do.

Yeah, that’s what I’m worried about too and hope we have a solution for. But all such scenarios so far suggest we don’t

 

[soflapaul]

I think he's just focused on the foundations first. He did the same at United but once he tried to progress he came across many issues so reverted back to defensive type.

Let's see if it's different here. I don't think Sacramento will have done what he would have liked to yet.

The first thing we needed to do was arrest the slide and get that defence to reduce mistakes and improve organisation.

It always seemed that Jose was going to be pragmatic and you would think that getting into Europe was the first priority since that could bring in additional funds no matter how ugly it was. CL was obviously better but EL but EL is still better than nothing from a monetary standpoint and money, hopefully means players.

Given the shortened preseason, i suspect we will be a more of a work in progress compared to having a normal preseason and from that standpoint, having to play the qualifying matches in EL might actually be helpful since they are a low risk, real world opportunity for additional training. That is obviously undesirable from the big picture though as it means Arsenal would have access to Europa money and the banter would be painful.

And fixing the defense was clearly the first order of business as it had deteriorated so badly pre-Jose. There is evidence that Jose isn't content with playing a turgid game long term. (Sacramento, ITK on a different style, commenting on his understanding of our culture and expectations, embracing of fast/quick players, etc.) but to be fair to the anti-Jose crowd, the on the field displays and tactics made it clear as mud what his final vision is. Whether it was pragmatism or the same ole Jose remains to be seen but as an optimist, i suspect it was pragmatic and smart since it did get us into Europe.

 

[Shadydan]

Maybe "progress" means different things to different people. We've progressed points wise (from a very low base) but imo our football has regressed.

You're free to disagree of course but Im struggling to see why this is such a difficult concept for some posters to comprehend.

Again context...

Our football has regressed since 2017 yes, but it has progressed since November.

 

[Wearegoingtowintheleague]

Why are you using 5th as a reference point?
What happens to your argument if you used, I dunno...4th?

I dunno, could it be that the point I was making is that the difference between 14th and 5th was 3 points and that's a one game swing?

You're right I could have shown how well we did to gain 4 points on the team in fourth, or 5 points that we actually gained on Chelsea. But i'm not comparing us against the teams who finished above us, that wasn't my point. If I wanted to do that, I'd have to point to the other places above us too, like 1st as a reference point. Being 20 points behind Pool when Poch was sacked to 40 points behind Pool when the season ended.

Or 2nd where we went from 12 points to 22 points behind the club in second place.

Or how about comparing us to the team who got third Man Utd, who were only 2 points ahead of us when Poch was sacked and ended up 7 points ahead of us by the end of the season.

I simply chose 5th as it showed how close the table was at the time and that's the context that was needed when talking about us being 14th at the time. The whole we were 14th is a red herring and this is the point I was making, not a comparison of how well we did against the teams above us.

 

[Wearegoingtowintheleague]

I'm not going to disagree with this but If you want to argue, argue in context - look there's nothing wrong with saying that we were heading downwards with Poch this season because that's a fact - despite being 3 points off 4th or whatever we were heading nowhere and we were miles behind the top four seeing as we were meant to challenge for the top 4 - 3 wins in 12 matches was pitiful, the football was pitiful, the effort was pitiful, the Goal difference, PPG etc...everything was trending downwards - something had to change and it did.

People just need to try admit that, no need to lie about it - it doesn't take anything away from the majority of Poch's time at the club.

I don't disagree that we were miles of the top 4 and I never expected Mourinho to come in and get us top 4 either. If he had that would have been an outstanding achievement. As it is, he has done well to secure us a place in Europe, but that's what I expected and had he not I'd have been disappointed.

You are right, we were playing some dire football that had carried on from the previous season, something was broken, we needed changes. I'm not denying any of this. Whilst I would have backed the manager and given him time to bed in our new signings rather than look to replace him under normal circumstances but it was clear that something was up with Poch from his press conferences.

It's the over exaggerating how bad the situation we were in that I disagree with.

 

[ClintEastwould]

Again context...

Our football has regressed since 2017 yes, but it has progressed since November.

Now wait a minute, since 2017?The football we played in 17/18 and the first half of last season was miles ahead of anything we’ve played this one Poch or Mourinho. We were on the cusp of challenging for the title in the winter of 2019 before it all fell apart.

 

[Mark_147]

I don't disagree that we were miles of the top 4 and I never expected Mourinho to come in and get us top 4 either. If he had that would have been an outstanding achievement. As it is, he has done well to secure us a place in Europe, but that's what I expected and had he not I'd have been disappointed.

You are right, we were playing some dire football that had carried on from the previous season, something was broken, we needed changes. I'm not denying any of this. Whilst I would have backed the manager and given him time to bed in our new signings rather than look to replace him under normal circumstances but it was clear that something was up with Poch from his press conferences.

It's the over exaggerating how bad the situation we were in that I disagree with.

Poch got sacked so there is no over exaggeration.

 

[Shadydan]

Now wait a minute, since 2017?The football we played in 17/18 and the first half of last season was miles ahead of anything we’ve played this one Poch or Mourinho. We were on the cusp of challenging for the title in the winter of 2019 before it all fell apart.

Hence we've regressed since 2017 - I'm saying 2017 was the peak and we've gone downhill since then.

The fist half of last season (you mean 2018/19 after the world Cup?) wasn't that great - I remember lots of average performances and you could see we were starting to get stagnant.

 

[ClintEastwould]

Now wait a minute, since 2017?The football we played in 17/18 and the first half of last season was miles ahead of anything we’ve played this one Poch or Mourinho. We were on the cusp of challenging for the title in the winter of 2019 before it all fell apart.

Last season 5 points from the top 25 matches into the season. Then Kane and literally everyone else in some form or another got injured as well as Dembele being sold.

 

[archiewasking]

What does your heart tell you?

I must stop eating pies.

 

[Shadydan]

Last season 5 points from the top 25 matches into the season. Then Kane and literally everyone else in some form or another got injured.
View attachment 70814

Yes we were winning matches but in comparison to the previous season how many stand out performances do you remember from that period? There wasn't many in fact we were being outplayed in a few of those matches but we had match winners that would pull it out the bag for us.

This is how you compare year on year performances, we regressed since the year before and were gradually getting worse throughout the season, I'm not saying that our performances now are on par with this period, I'm saying they are better than they were at the start of this season.

 

[ClintEastwould]

Yes we were winning matches but in comparison to the previous season how many stand out performances do you remember from that period? There wasn't many in fact we were being outplayed in a few of those matches but we had match winners that would pull it out the bag for us.

This is how you compare year on year performances, we regressed since the year before and were gradually getting worse throughout the season, I'm not saying that our performances now are on par with this period, I'm saying they are better than they were at the start of this season.

We regressed because we went three windows signing fuck all. The football was still good to occasionally very good and we were winning at a canter for the most part. I think people don’t take into consideration the amount of injuries that piled up around last February as it directly coincided with the steep decline in our form and performances. I agree our results have improved since Jose has come in but I’m just challenging this narrative. That’s all.

 

[Metalhead]

I think he's just focused on the foundations first. He did the same at United but once he tried to progress he came across many issues so reverted back to defensive type.

Let's see if it's different here. I don't think Sacramento will have done what he would have liked to yet.

The first thing we needed to do was arrest the slide and get that defence to reduce mistakes and improve organisation.

The way I've read it I'd that Sacramento is an adherent to an up to date version of Jose's philosophy. How that will play out, I guess we'll see next season.

 

[Shadydan]

We regressed because we went three windows signing fuck all. The football was still good to occasionally very good and we were winning at a canter for the most part. I think people don’t take into consideration the amount of injuries that piled up around last February as it directly coincided with the steep decline in our form and performances. I agree our results have improved since Jose has come in but I’m just challenging this narrative. That’s all.

I don't even know what narrative you're looking to challenge - pretty much everything you said is the general consensus about lack of investment which caused it...oh and letting go of and not replacing Dembele.

But our football has been bad since 2017 and Poch has to take some of the blame...anyway I don't know why we constantly have to go back to Poch ffs lol