Manager watch: Jose Mourinho

How do you feel about Mourinho appointment

  • Excited - silverware here we come baby

    Votes: 632 55.8%
  • Meh - will give him a chance and hope he is successful

    Votes: 419 37.0%
  • Horrified - praying for the day he'll fuck off

    Votes: 82 7.2%

  • Total voters
    1,133

rez9000

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@rez9000
Interesting to see itk making exactly this point. Not that this is itk worthy info because anyone can see this.

Levys biggest mistake over the past year has been sacking Poch to hire Mourinho. Very expensive mistake it will turn into.

Still, I’m sure he’ll deliver an fa cup playing shit football to keep that chap from Manchester and @scat1620 happy? Surely? At least a derby win... maybe ?

If only this was foreseeable...
Sorry, what?
 

WhiteDane

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Good video about Mourinho in the media vs. the important part Mourinho of succeeding on the pitch.

And also that this Tottenham squad isn’t close to being mentality the same as his Chelsea or Real Madrid.

 

jolsnogross

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It still boggles the mind that Levy lurched from Poch to Mourinho. He spent the first decade and a half of his stewardship of Spurs learning that continuity between managerial appointments made footballing and economic sense. And then he shits himself into two atrocious errors: sacking his best appointment to date because there was a downturn in his own overachievement and appoints someone who doesn't play that type of proactive footy.

Mourinho might not be a disaster, but this does not represent sound strategic club management.
 

Gb160

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It still boggles the mind that Levy lurched from Poch to Mourinho. He spent the first decade and a half of his stewardship of Spurs learning that continuity between managerial appointments made footballing and economic sense. And then he shits himself into two atrocious errors: sacking his best appointment to date because there was a downturn in his own overachievement and appoints someone who doesn't play that type of proactive footy.

Mourinho might not be a disaster, but this does not represent sound strategic club management.
Come on, It was a lot worse than that mate.
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Not sure who some of these journalists were watching earlier this season .
Under Poch 2019/20 season up to his last game

Not a single away win for the season
12 league matches 14 points won
6 points from a relegation spot
11 points away from 4th place, in history of PL no team has made 4th spot when being 11 points behind after 12 games so CL qualification was gone already.
3 points behind The Woolwich
Record home defeat by 7 goals yes SEVEN, really don't know why the drinks company has not come in with stadium naming rights The 7-UP Stadium sounds quite good
Knocked out of League cup by a 4th division side

Jose might be the wrong appointment but Poch was going nowhere.
 
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rez9000

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I quoted a response I had made to you earlier in the thread. You didn’t reply to that comment but shortly after an itk made almost identical comments.

« Chap from Manchester » = freeki
I'm sorry, but I'm still not sure what that has to do with me? If you're referring to our previous exchange, I was talking about something entirely different to what you thought I was talking about, and then you asked me a question that has no answer.

To then be namechecked in what seems to be a rather crowing 'I told you so' post when you haven't even highlighted what it is you think has vindicated you is just weird. What is it you hope to gain? For me to say, 'yes, victorious one, the thing to which you're referring of which I have absolutely no idea definitely vindicates your position on something that I've not really discussed with you.'

I'm left scratching my head, to be honest.
 

Flashspur

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"Mourinho isn’t the answer to the crisis; he has become the crisis."

Welp
These aren’t my own words but someone’s response in another forum which gives some balance to the debate


‘When Mourinho arrived Spurs had 25 points from their previous 24 league games. He inherited a squad with 2 top goalscorers - Kane and Son, both now long term injuries, a powerful and rejuvenated midfielder - Sissoko, another long term injury, a bone idle midfielder on whom Pochettino had blown most of the transfer budget - Ndombele, no decent right back - because Pochettino had sold Trippier to Atletico Madrid, a problem at left back because Pochettino had fallen out with Rose, no back up striker - because Pochettino had allowed LLorente to leave and a struggling centre back partnership - Alderweireld and Vertonghen... He deserves at least a full season to make things work.’

There’s more shades of gray to this. I am not saying Jose is blameless but he stepped into the poo on this job.
 

LeParisien

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I'm sorry, but I'm still not sure what that has to do with me? If you're referring to our previous exchange, I was talking about something entirely different to what you thought I was talking about, and then you asked me a question that has no answer.

To then be namechecked in what seems to be a rather crowing 'I told you so' post when you haven't even highlighted what it is you think has vindicated you is just weird. What is it you hope to gain? For me to say, 'yes, victorious one, the thing to which you're referring of which I have absolutely no idea definitely vindicates your position on something that I've not really discussed with you.'

I'm left scratching my head, to be honest.
You express yourself very well and you sensed Internet bs and called it out - fair enough. But in this case I think you’ve lost track of the conversational thread, which is fair enough given that it happened over several days.

I had initially defended a post by oh teddy teddy that you had criticised. You clarified the part of his post you were actually critiquing. This was the claim that the side is not well coached. You objected to this on the grounds that we have no direct evidence of the coaching quality and that the only evidence we have is performance on the pitch. This performance is affected by a great many factors aside from coaching so it was unfair to single out coaching so categorically.

I then replied to say that were coaching effective, we would expect to see certain things eg “patterns of midfield play...defensive solidity...”. Mourinho has some mitigating factors but the absence of a developing strategy still reflects poorly on his coaching. The whole point of good coaching is tha it makes players better, both individually and collectively. There is precious little evidence of this ( Tanganga and Lo Celso aside).

You did not reply to this defence of the claim that Mourinho is not coaching the team properly. A day or two later an itk made the same point I did, so I réengaged you on that point.

It’s your prerogative not to reply, and you may have found my tone smarmy, but the point was to encourage you to respond to the idea that we do have evidence of a lack of strategic thinking and good coaching by Mourinho. That is entirely relevant to this thread and our discussion and nothing to do with a desire to gloat.
 
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Real_madyidd

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sacking his best appointment to date because there was a downturn in his own overachievement and appoints someone who doesn't play that type of proactive footy.
A downturn? It was WAY more than that. It was a full year of being terrible. Not only results wise either. The football under Poch at the end was as bad, if not worse, than under Jose. Then there is the fact that senior players had lost motivation and were not putting in 100% any more.

He wasn't just falling short of his own overachievement, but if the expected results from the club. This year we were supposed to be qualiying for CL, under the Poch-Levy plan, we would have been nearer relegation.
 

Japhet

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Not sure who some of these journalists were watching earlier this season .
Under Poch 2019/20 season up to his last game

Not a single away win for the season
12 league matches 14 points won
6 points from a relegation spot
11 points away from 4th place, in history of PL no team has made 4th spot when being 11 points behind after 12 games so CL qualification was gone already.
3 points behind The Woolwich
Record home defeat by 7 goals yes SEVEN, really don't know why the drinks company has not come in with stadium naming rights The 7-UP Stadium sounds quite good
Knocked out of League cup by a 4th division side

Jose might be the wrong appointment but Poch was going nowhere.

Not really sure why the Bayern result is always used as a stick to beat Poch with. It was a dreadful result (but a freak one too), and, in context, we created a load of chances which we failed to convert whilst everything they tried ended up in the net. Once we were behind there was nothing to lose in chasing the game since it was a group stage match. I wish we could produce some of the attacking play we saw in that game under Mourinho even though we don't have anyone to apply the finishing touches.
 

Stamford

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It still boggles the mind that Levy lurched from Poch to Mourinho. He spent the first decade and a half of his stewardship of Spurs learning that continuity between managerial appointments made footballing and economic sense. And then he shits himself into two atrocious errors: sacking his best appointment to date because there was a downturn in his own overachievement and appoints someone who doesn't play that type of proactive footy.

Mourinho might not be a disaster, but this does not represent sound strategic club management.
Ah yes just a small downturn. It was relegation form. I love Poch but lets not rewrite history
 

SirHarryHotspur

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Not really sure why the Bayern result is always used as a stick to beat Poch with. It was a dreadful result (but a freak one too), and, in context, we created a load of chances which we failed to convert whilst everything they tried ended up in the net. Once we were behind there was nothing to lose in chasing the game since it was a group stage match. I wish we could produce some of the attacking play we saw in that game under Mourinho even though we don't have anyone to apply the finishing touches.
I liked Poch but bad results mean the sack especially if you are aiming for a high league position , I know Southampton persevered after that Leicester result but many clubs do not...

" Bayern Munich have sacked Niko Kovac as manager after Saturday's embarrassing 5-1 defeat at Eintracht Frankfurt, the club announced on Sunday. "The performance of our team in recent weeks and the results have shown us that there was need for action. "
 

rossdapep

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I liked Poch but bad results mean the sack especially if you are aiming for a high league position , I know Southampton persevered after that Leicester result but many clubs do not...

" Bayern Munich have sacked Niko Kovac as manager after Saturday's embarrassing 5-1 defeat at Eintracht Frankfurt, the club announced on Sunday. "The performance of our team in recent weeks and the results have shown us that there was need for action. "
That makes it worse. Losing 7-2 to an under performing Bayern team who should have been there for the taking
 

rez9000

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You express yourself very well and you sensed Internet bs and called it out - fair enough. But in this case I think you’ve lost track of the conversational thread, which is fair enough given that it happened over several days.

I had initially defended a post by oh teddy teddy that you had criticised. You clarified the part of his post you were actually critiquing. This was the claim that the side is not well coached. You objected to this on the grounds that we have no direct evidence of the coaching quality and that the only evidence we have is performance on the pitch. This performance is affected by a great many factors aside from coaching so it was unfair to single out coaching so categorically.

I then replied to say that were coaching effective, we would expect to see certain things eg “patterns of midfield play...defensive solidity...”. Mourinho has some mitigating factors but the absence of a developing strategy still reflects poorly on his coaching. The whole point of good coaching is tha it makes players better, both individually and collectively. There is precious little evidence of this ( Tanganga and Lo Celso aside).

You did not reply to this defence of the claim that Mourinho is not coaching the team properly. A day or two later an itk made the same point I did, so I réengaged you on that point.

It’s your prerogative not to reply, and you may have found my tone smarmy, but the point was to encourage you to respond to the idea that we do have evidence of a lack of strategic thinking and good coaching by Mourinho. That is entirely relevant to this thread and our discussion and nothing to do with a desire to gloat.
You’re still labouring under a false premise - that what you see on the pitch a) gives you enough information to draw a conclusion re what is precisely being done by the coaching staff; and b) that any of us are even remotely qualified to make judgements based on that; that, inevitably, leads to c) we cannot seek to place responsibility for that at the feet of the coaching staff given the myriad other factors that can come into play.

In essence, what you’re saying is neatly boiled down to: ‘I believe this, therefore that’ and you’ve no direct evidence to make that claim. It is the quintessence of confirmation bias. Your starting position is that you don’t believe that Mourinho is the right man for the job and so anything that happens that you feel supports your position is amplified. Even when using equivocal language you’re still damning with faint praise. You’re essentially saying that in spite of factors that we can say exist, and so provides direct evidence, your judgement of him still stands. You’re acting as your own source for confirmation bias. And citing ITK, with its inherent unreliability as a source of direct evidence (not bashing ITKs, just saying that they cannot, both for avoiding jeopardising their channel of information and because they aren’t directly involved in the things they provide information on) is probably the apotheosis of hearing what one wants to hear to back up one’s position. What’s worse is that I went back through various threads and tried to find this ITK nugget and can’t find anything that supports your contention.

My own position is that I can’t say at this early stage whether Mourinho will be successful or not. My feeling is that he will, but the only evidence I can draw on is what he’s done in the past, which isn’t enough to make a categorical claim and so I don’t. And were you to review my posts in this thread, I’m confident that you’ll find I’ve never made any such claim. I, for instance, didn’t look at the games against Man City and Liverpool and say because we won the former and could have won the latter that this was evidence that Mourinho was going to do well. In the same way as it’s too early to tell by the losses we’ve suffered whether he’ll be a success, it’s likewise too early to tell by the wins we’ve accrued whether he’ll be a success.

Anyone who, at this juncture, feels qualified to make categorical judgements about Mourinho’s Tottenham tenure is engaging in unwarranted and unsubstantiated analysis, firmly based in cognitive bias. We don’t have anything remotely approaching valid and substantive evidence to make any kind of judgement. Hence why I, and others, keep having to say, ‘wait and see’.
 

jolsnogross

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A downturn? It was WAY more than that. It was a full year of being terrible. Not only results wise either. The football under Poch at the end was as bad, if not worse, than under Jose. Then there is the fact that senior players had lost motivation and were not putting in 100% any more.

He wasn't just falling short of his own overachievement, but if the expected results from the club. This year we were supposed to be qualiying for CL, under the Poch-Levy plan, we would have been nearer relegation.
1. In the full year of being terrible, we made it to the CL final and clung to 4th place to qualify anew. If we're only supposed to value the outcome, as many Mourinho fanboys argue, then that is historic achievement for our club, even without pretty football.
2. Poch had warned at length about the painful rebuild. Those senior players haven't exactly changed their tune without him, have they? So backing them over him seems to have been futile.
3. We've been in the CL 5 times. Poch achieved 80% of those. What the fuck are you on about not falling short of his own overachievement, "but the expected results of the club"?? If the club expects CL qualifying finishes, it can only have built that expectation in the last 4-5 seasons. i.e. during Poch's tenure. You write as though it was par for the course before then,

There was a downturn, but it was resolvable. Relegation talk is horseshit hyperbole. We spent a fortune on 3 players Poch barely got any game time out of. Levy abdicated from the "Poch-Levy" plan, and under the Levy-Mou plan we'll be achieving fuck all this season anyway.

The big question is will the huge shift in approach lead to prolonged decline relative to Poch's time, similar outcomes, or better ones? If you reckon the latter two are straightforward, then top marks for optimism/naivety.
 
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Everlasting Seconds

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1. In the full year of being terrible, we made it to the CL final and clung to 4th place to qualify anew. If we're only supposed to value the outcome, as many Mourinho fanboys argue, then that is historic achievement for our club, even without pretty football.
2. Poch had warned at length about the painful rebuild. Those senior players haven't exactly changed their tune without him, have they? So backing them over him seems to have been futile.
3. We've been in the CL 5 times. Poch achieved 80% of those. What the fuck are you on about not falling short of his own overachievement, "but the expected results of the club"?? If the club expects CL qualifying finishes, it can only have built that expectation in the last 4-5 seasons. i.e. during Poch's tenure. You write as though it was par for the course before then,

There was a downturn, but it was resolvable. Relegation talk is horseshit hyperbole. We spent a fortune on 3 players Poch barely got any game time out of. Levy abdicated from the "Poch-Levy" plan, and under the Levy-Mou plan we'll be achieving fuck all this season anyway.

The big question is will the huge shift in approach lead to prolonged decline relative to Poch's time, similar outcomes, or better ones? If you reckon the latter two are straightforward, then top marks for optimism/naivety.
You are not necessarily all wrong but this isn't really the "Pochettino was fantastic" thread. It's also not the "Pochettino should have been given more time" thread.
 

Goobers

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I love Mauricio.
BUT his last 12 months were worse than his first period in charge. He had lost some of the players.
He had (IMO) checked out long before José got appointed.
 
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