Jose Mourinho

[Ionman34]

Ahhh I said I didn't want to do it but seen as Poch's comparisons are going on I'll do it.

August

Started with a 1-0 win over West Ham. Not a great performance but was a very satisfying win to start with. Followed by a hammering of a very weak QPR (4-0). But then got completely exposed with the high press by Liverpool at home, losing 3-0.

Very mixed start but you could see we were miles away from the Poch team that was to come. Many many flaws in the team.

September

Next up, a travel up north to play an awful Sunderland side that ended in a 2-2 draw. Again a very indifferent performance, very similar to the AVB era. We then got embarrassed at home, losing 0-1 to WBA, before we managed to scrape a draw at Arsenal.

6 points from 6 games so far, not a lot to be excited about, still, early days. Although I do recall many saying the club screwed up getting Poch when bigger coaches were available.

October

Started with a decent 1-0 win against Southampton - although I don't really recall this game or performance. However, it's important to note that Poch was mixing up his starting 11 game by game. Players like Kane and Dembele still on the bench, Chiriches in and out of the team.

Then consequently got hammered 4-1 by City.....and then beaten 2-1 at home by Newcastle.

9 points from 9 games and not looking great at all! This is around about the time the cries for Kane to start started.

November

Next came that famous Villa game with Kane scoring the late winner but the performance was still largely poor and once again it was real concerning to see us plug away and look lacklustre and out of ideas.

The strange thing is that so many people refer this to Poch's turning point. Well, we lost 2-1 at home to Stoke and I think this may have been the real turning point in terms of certain players no longer being trusted (Kaboul, Adebayor, Capoue). Back to back wins for the first time vs Hull and Everton gave us some hope again.

18 points from 13. Poch's best month yet with 3 wins.

December

Started with a 3-0 spanking vs Mourinho's Chelsea, however the performance was quite promising. Drew with Palace in a pretty drab affair but then beat Swansea, Burnley and Leicester all 2-1 as we started to find momemtum. The performances were hardly stellar, but little signs were there. Lamela was impressing, Kane was scoring and Dembele was finding his way.

We drew 0-0 with United to finish the year with 29 points from 19 games. So very similar to this season.

January

Incredible 5-3 win vs Chelsea to start the year. The attack started to form but we still had issues as we were humbled by Crystal Palace 2-1. Scraped a 2-1 win vs Sunderland but got k'od in the FA Cup vs Leicester. Made damn hard work of beating a tier 3 Sheffield United to reach the final of the League Cup. Finished by beating WBA 3-0, first real accomplished performance since Poch walked in the door.

So 38 points from 23 games and whilst there was certainly improvements, Poch was still having difficulty overcoming dogged teams and the team were still capable of a bad defeat. But this month Poch had started to really define his team - 6 months after first starting with them.

February

Beat Arsenal with a great display but lost a silly game against Liverpool 3-2 to show many weaknesses defensively. Very lucky to draw 2-2 with West Ham after being 2 down and playing awfully. Also got knocked out of the Europa by an average Fiorentina.

42 points from 26 games and still a long way from looking like a consistent team. There was still a lot of doubts about Poch and the team and most of the focus was on how special Kane was and how lucky we were to have got him. Although there were some promising signs. But we'd all been here before.

March

Got schooled in the league cup final by Jose. But beat Swansea and QPR to keep the optimism rolling. Although a 3-0 hammering by Van Gaals United had many wondering if we'd picked the wrong coach. We finished the month with an uncomfortable 4-3 win vs Leicester at home. Still, 3 wins out of 4.

51 points from 30 games and most were wondering if we could sneak top 4 in spite of our inability to avoid a poor defeat every 3 or 4 games.

April

Put in a horrible performance to draw 0-0 with Burnley (Paulinho game) and got humiliated against an awful 10-men Villa team, losing 1-0 at home. Beat Newcastle 3-1 and drew 2-2 against Southampton. 5 points from 4 games amidst some pretty abject performances.

56 points from 34 games and still not sure what to think of Pochettino's Tottenham. Could look very decent and intense one moment, the next completely bereft of ideas and toothless.

May

Final month of the season with still a slight chance of CL qualification. But that proved to be more hope as we lost 1-0 to City without putting a mark on them and then got humiliated losing 3-0 vs Stoke - of all teams. Finished the season beating Hull and Everton to secure Europa, although the team were pretty much coasting by that point.

64 points and 5th place finish. We were close but never really close enough to CL qualification and other than a good bit of form from late December to February, the team were far from looking special.

The odd stellar performance every now and again but it was a very tough watch most of the season. A lot of wins by one goal, showed that the team were just scraping by and finding each game a slog. Poch was identifying the foundations and still understanding his best 11, right up until the summer of 2015. Trying to get the team to buy into the press and identify those who were incapable.

In fact, this followed on into the next season. We lost to United, drew with Stoke, Leicester and Everton squeezed past Sunderland in the first two months. All far from convincing, looking quite toothless all the while. Some time after it all clicked and we became the monster team we all loved.

The point I'm making is that it took a hell of a long time for Poch to really work his magic and the first 14 months or so were pretty rocky, good performance, average performance then poor performance. Different 11 week in week out. It was really hard to see the direction we were headed but because Poch was given time he was able to really imprint his style onto the team and get everyone on board.

Jose needs similar time and trust. I see some similarities, average performances, some good results, some bad results, certain players looking finished, some lacking form and belief. We just need to be very patient.

So i apprently am too negative about jm and his outdated methods of seige mentality and his poor tactics or lack of that i got banned from another forum.
Can anyone provide me with a positive to what ive said

Cracking post

 

[Lennon1981]

You sign a manager like Mourinho then there is only one reason, you want to win things. I was happy with Poch too up until what I witnessed in that final, it was a disappointment. The summer brought hope because signings. It didn't get better and he was sacked and I was upset but also excited. Now there is a winner at the helm and that brings the bonus of board level having no where else left to run - that's for another thread and whatnot.

We now have a proven winner at the helm. If he can't win anything then you'll get back that progressive manager, that proud feeling and the top four feeling again.

But we won’t. By the time Jose fails and upsets all the players in the process our top players will be gone and we will be set back 10-15 years. We should have been brave and stuck with the direction we were heading.

 

[SpursSince1980]

I just think it's simply decline when it comes to those two. What we were doing further up the pitch was a big issue and the standards of our pressing absolutely nose-dived in the last couple of years, but they didn't help things and at the end of the Poch era were incapable of stepping up the pitch any more.

A low block defence should in theory help them - Team all in behind the ball, compact the space, team mates in the vicinity to not leave them isolated, not having to turn and get in a footrace going back towards their own goal and try to cover huge expanses of space, etc. But they look no better or more secure, I think it's just a case of physical decline and as I've said repeatedly now for months I don't know why we're persisting with either, I don't see any benefit or positive impact we're getting any more.

If you have ever played in a back four, you know the above statement to be true. It does make it a bit easier on aging bodies, who are slowing down. The high-press requires a great deal of focus and speed. There's a good reason that Davinson has looked so good lately. The current set up highlights his best attributes... defending. It's when he has played in the high-press that he's had bad games. Either because he gets sucked in too far, leaving space behind him, or loses focus. But if asked to sit back further and defend... that's his bread and butter.

The reason much of this isn't working, is down to not having four integral players... two high-quality full backs (both good defensively and offensively), a best-in-breed central defensive midfielder, and a target man to hold up the ball, and bring speedy AMs into play.

Lastly, a creator would be the icing on the cake. Unless, Tanguy steps up, or Dele get's his act together.

I feel for Jose, I really do. He's starting every chess game with pieces already off the board. So it is so hard to judge him, until he arguably has all the players he needs and has had a full pre-season with them.

If, by this time next year we are having the same conversations and the team is still playing like crap, then by all means... off with his head. But until then, I'll do my level best to reserve judgement.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

But we won’t. By the time Jose fails and upsets all the players in the process our top players will be gone and we will be set back 10-15 years. We should have been brave and stuck with the direction we were heading.

We could have been sat alongside West Ham had we stuck the course.

What ifs now are pointless aren't they?

 

[Eighteen Eighty Two]

Until we fix our full backs, defensive midfield, and striker options (5 players minimum) it doesn't matter who the manager is we will continue to fail. Jose knows this I'm sure. All down to player recruitment and levy this. Lay off the manager

 

[Lennon1981]

We could have been sat alongside West Ham had we stuck the course.

What ifs now are pointless aren't they?

Show me where I have ever said we should have stuck with Poch? I get that change was needed.

My point is that we should have been brave with our choice and stuck to our footballing philosophy rather than tearing up all the good work poch had done.

 

[chelmyid]

Like I've said a few times though, watch the game against Chelsea at home even before Son got sent off, watch Southampton away in the league and it's the same type of performance as the one against Chelsea on the weekend. The main problem we have is not the lack of a striker.

There’s a saying about waves and boats - 1 wave the boat is fine, 2 waves the boat rocks, 3 waves and the boat sinks

I believe our striker problem is one of those - and is certainly a considerable problem. Im not sure (prior to son) We had any main problems - we have a lot of smaller issues which are mounting up to one huge clusterfuck. One that is seriously threatening to sink our boat!

Ps I don’t believe son is a striker either

he is another make do - just a better one than anyone else so we have ‘got away with it in the past’

 

[Gb160]

But we won’t. By the time Jose fails and upsets all the players in the process our top players will be gone and we will be set back 10-15 years. We should have been brave and stuck with the direction we were heading.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Show me where I have ever said we should have stuck with Poch? I get that change was needed.

My point is that we should have been brave with our choice and stuck to our footballing philosophy rather than tearing up all the good work poch had done.

You said the direction we were heading, we were heading down, we needed results and if you believe the stories - press or from elsewhere - there were growing issues within the squad - important players. Which progressive manager were we hiring 3 months into the season that would have gotten these players onside?

Awful lot of what ifs really, isn't it?

 

[Ionman34]

I'll say it again, this is weird. When we win we're always 'lucky' when we lose it's never unlucky. It's the negative that always counts wether that be the teams performance or an individual player.

Not aimed at you yusrisafri but the sheer weight of ignorance, pettiness and sourness on here at times like this is actually depressing to read and it's also weird how, when there's negativity to be had how a number of people seem to thrive on it. I can't be arsed to argue it much any more because there's no pleasing some people, there's no meeting in the middle, no concession just this steadfast maintaining of a negative position and a refusal to accept any sort of mitigation, people take a position and take it to an extreme and then refuse to budge. Even slightly.

It's just so draining.

It's bad enough watching the team play without coming on here only to see people at each others throats over a fucking game of football or people who rightly or wrongly, give the impression that over the top negativity actually gives them real life steel girder hard-ons. There's way of discussing things without being, as we all can be, total dickheads totally lacking in objectivity about it. I must have had about twenty PM's from people complaining that so-and-so is being abusive or a spiteful troll etc etc, we can do without all that surely.

We're not nearly as low as we could be, some of you should remember that. We all want us to be playing better football, we all want us to finish in the top 4 and this season we probably won't. It wasn't that long ago that top 4 wasn't good enough for some people. People should remember that too.

This has been coming. There's no point in going over the reasons again that's all been covered but it's been coming and if anyone thought changing the manager was going to solve what's broken then they were wrong because it was obviously a lot more than that. So perhaps don't write that off so readily like some are doing.

Now people are complaining about the 'style'. As if it's as simple as Jose saying "Here lads, knock it about at the back a bit, play it around midfield, bash bash bosh, score a goal. Holland in 1974 style. Throw in a few dragbacks, nutmegs and Cruyff turns while you're at it will you please?" Fuck me. I can't believe we still haven't won the league. We could just as easily lose by knocking it about. Come to think of it, we were losing when we were knocking it about. And people were complaining about that too.

Hasn't the penny fucking dropped yet? Perhaps it's not the managers, or us 'knocking it about', instead of people arguing about Mourinho, Dele or whoever we should be talking about how the squad was allowed to decline, how we failed, when the time was so obviously right, to freshen up the squad, how we failed, over a number of transfer windows, to even address certain positions. Or in some cases to even sign a player, because there's where what we're seeing now has its roots.

Was it Pochettino who said the rebuild was going to be painful? Well here it is and surprise surprise, its painful and performances as well as results are reflecting that. It was hardly going to be painful otherwise was it. There is no magic switch, the squad needs work doing to it and thankfully, we've started to address that but it'll take time. Yeah, yeah, I know, SC doesn't do 'time'

But of course, the die hard negativistas won't have any of the above. It's Mourinho, it's Dele, its its and its again and again and again..........It's everything except negligence at the very top.

Meh. Bollocks, shit, piss and wank. Tell me what a silly **** I am. Go on, go start a thread about it on FTL

TLDR; Some people will never be happy, we're all ****s

 

[Deleted member 27995]

People are literally rehashing the same stuff over and over again. It just ends up in the same dead end.

Time is the greatest thing in this world yet no one has the time to give to the incumbent manager because of [enter the excuse here]

I still cannot get my head around how people can be this picky.

 

[Ionman34]

The irony, fishy, is that you’ve missed the point. Yes, Blanchflower was talking about winning with style, but the fundamental point is he was still talking about winning. He was saying it’s better to win well than win badly, not that it was better to lose well than win badly.

And even though he wrote it in 1972, he was still talking from his place as an exemplar of winning. Although the gloss had faded a little, Spurs at the time were considered one of the giants of the game because of our dominance in the 60s.

If one looks deeper into some of the things that Danny Blanchflower said, you can see that, for him, winning was the most important thing, not style.

Words such as, "We aim to equalise before the other team score. We should get our retaliation in first."

Or when asked by an interviewer what the secret to [at that point] Spurs winning every game they'd played that season. His reply was, "Most probably because in each match we have scored more goals than our opponents."

Those are the words of someone for whom winning is most important. He didn't say that the secret to winning every game had been, "we played beautiful football".

It's all well and good talking of glory and beauty and style when things are going well, but when things are going badly they're nothing but platitudes.

How about this axiom: "You should cut your coat to fit your cloth"?

At the moment, on the pitch, we are in a bad place - we're vulnerable and brittle. Right now, we need to exercise pragmatism, get our heads down and ride through the storm as best we can. If that means shithousery, so be it; if it means playing grindy football, so be it; if it means we can't celebrate hatfuls of goals every match, so be it. And if it's pragmatism that is the order of the day currently, and it is, then I can't think of a better person to bring that pragmatic approach than Mourinho.

Do you think that Blanchflower would speak glowingly of our also-ran campaigns extending nearly thirty years (the odd beacon of success notwithstanding)? Do you think he'd be waxing lyrical about reaching a Champions League final and losing (that's not an attack on Pochettino before I get dragged over the coals)? No, he wouldn't.

I have little doubt that Blanchflower would have celebrated our dynamic style under our previous manager, but he would also recognise the dire straits we're currently in and I'm sure he'd be devastated by the fact that we've won so little in the last few years.

Blanchflower was considered a true gentleman - witty, urbane, and generous. He certainly wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to be deriding his manager three months into his tenure; he wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to not give someone an opportunity to prove himself; he wouldn't be so ungentlemanly as to abuse someone at a distance (not that I'm accusing you of that, speaking generally).

Perhaps we should follow in the example he would set and remember something else the great man once said: "Ideas are funny things. They only work if you do." Maybe we should put in some work too?

Another cracking post

 

[Shadydan]

You’re saying this like Jose is guaranteed to win something ???‍

Nothing that I have seen since he has been here has given me any confidence that he will at all. All I’m hearing is “just wait till he has his players” “ two transfer windows” it’s all bull shit!

So at the moment given the choice between poch’s entertaining pot less spurs or Jose’s pragmatic pot less spurs it’s no contest

He's been here for 3 months you absolute mentalist

 

[Lennon1981]

You said the direction we were heading, we were heading down, we needed results and if you believe the stories - press or from elsewhere - there were growing issues within the squad - important players. Which progressive manager were we hiring 3 months into the season that would have gotten these players onside?

Awful lot of what ifs really, isn't it?

Come on mate you know what I mean. In any other form of life if you’re on a constant upward run improvement over a 5 year period then hit a wall you don’t just rip it all up and head in a completely different direction. You might take one step back to see where it went wrong but starting all over again is just crazy.

At the time we sacked poch he had got us to a position where there were only maybe 5-6 jobs in world football that were more desirable. We could have got who ever we wanted give or take.

 

[Lennon1981]

He's been here for 3 months you absolute mentalist

Pipe down you fucking muppet.

 

[chelmyid]

But we won’t. By the time Jose fails and upsets all the players in the process our top players will be gone and we will be set back 10-15 years. We should have been brave and stuck with the direction we were heading.

Unless you have a crystal ball you cannot say that

there is no way you know that I’m afraid - whether you like it or not

facts again now - the direction we were heading was backwards

 

[Shadydan]

Pipe down you fucking muppet.

Well that's not very nice is it.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Come on mate you know what I mean. In any other form of life if you’re on a constant upward run improvement over a 5 year period then hit a wall you don’t just rip it all up and head in a completely different direction. You might take one step back to see where it went wrong but starting all over again is just crazy.

At the time we sacked poch he had got us to a position where there were only maybe 5-6 jobs in world football that were more desirable. We could have got who ever we wanted give or take.

Why could we? I still want to know who we were going to bring in that would have ticked the boxes of so many Spurs fans because the consensus on here was it would be Howe ... Eddie Howe of Bournemouth fame ...

I'm happy to hear who you would have taken the sack full of cash to to bring in ...

 

[Lennon1981]

Unless you have a crystal ball you cannot say that

there is no way you know that I’m afraid - whether you like it or not

facts again now - the direction we were heading was backwards

He couldn’t complete at United up against city with all the money that he threw at it. Now it’s not just pep at city but klopp at Liverpool too and with a fraction of the money he had at united!

What’s makes you think anything will change? Just blind faith?

 

[rez9000]

You’re saying this like Jose is guaranteed to win something ???‍

Nothing that I have seen since he has been here has given me any confidence that he will at all. All I’m hearing is “just wait till he has his players” “ two transfer windows” it’s all bull shit!

So at the moment given the choice between poch’s entertaining pot less spurs or Jose’s pragmatic pot less spurs it’s no contest

I hate to be 'that' guy, but literally a few posts before you essentially said that Mourinho was guaranteed not to win anything. What's the difference? Why is your analysis of his capabilities any more valid than someone who believes the opposite of what you do?

The problem here, old chap is that you've made up your mind already. And now you want to convince those who believe in waiting and seeing how things transpire of a conclusion you've drawn not based on evidence, not based on reliable barometers of the state of things, but on your gut instinct that you. don't. like. Mourinho.

Here's your first post after he was appointed:

I’ll admit I hated him and when he was given the job I was fuming but I will give it to him he cane across well in the press conference. I just hope he stays like that and doesn’t go back his usual poisoners self.

I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now

Again, apologies for putting you on the spot like that, but you're not alone in your dislike of Mourinho and you and those who are acting out are reneging on your responsibility as a supporter - that of getting behind the manager, even if you don't like his methods.

We have problems that need solving. Those problems are not minor. I believe there is a deep cultural crisis going on at Spurs and that cannot be fixed quickly. We need to get our head down and muddle through as best we can, not throw our toys out of the pram because we have an issue with one member of the club's staff (albeit an important one).