Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[smallsnc]

Personally just think our 2 #10s are pushed too high. It hurts us in attack by making our attack too flat and taking away space for the CF and wingers. There is also very little play through the midfield. Likewise, it hurts us defensively as there is no one to cover for the FB when teams counter. Early last year Sarr did not push as high and he helped break up countless counters. Now, they are so high up the pitch, a counter out wide pulls us completely out of shape.

 

[Mr Pink]

Thing is mate some of the changes I believe are required would probably go unnoticed by the majority of watching fans and even pundits as we'd still dominate possession. It wouldn't be until someone on Youtube pointed it out with a CBBC voiceover and crayon drawings they'd even know what the difference was.

Probably, and thats why they're paid well.

Its incumbant on Ange to find solutions, no matter how subtle.

We all know this level of performance wont be good enough over enough time.

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

That is all I am asking for mate. I'm more than happy for him to go back to this way of playing when he feels he has all the right components, until then just tweak it to best utilise what we have.

I tend to agree with you mate, but to just to play devils advocate from Ange’s perspective….

I think his idea is that ultimately his only goal is to win leagues/trophies, not to win games in the short run by changing his tactics to suit short-term benefits.

He believes the best way to win leagues is to stick steadfast to his tactics so that it is completely ingrained in the squad so that when he finally has the ‘right players’ that we’re ready to go and start to dominate the league.

Whether this is the right thought process or not is the question at hand, and whether he’ll survive long enough to see the potential benefits is another.

But I can understand the thinking behind it

 

[alfie103]

I'll be honest mate, they are good as gold to the players and it why they have such a large number of players on their books(improving every year). I know you are joking but if you were looking to get your son representation he could do far worse.

If you don't mind me asking, what is the benefit for the club working so closely with CAA Base?

 

[Mr Pink]

I don’t think it’s just stubbornness, though. Reading between the lines, it seems like Ange has complete faith in his system and believes it will succeed if he stays committed, even when things get tough. You, @Trix and others might disagree on whether this is the best approach, but I don’t think he’s refusing to change out of pride or attachment to his philosophy. It feels more like he genuinely believes pushing through will lead to success, and turning back now could make things worse in the long run. He could be completely wrong about this, but I believe that's where his motivation to persevere is coming from, rather than pure stubbornness.

You could be right but how long do we perservere with this level of performance until it all just clicks?

 

[Trix]

I don’t think it’s just stubbornness, though. Reading between the lines, it seems like Ange has complete faith in his system and believes it will succeed if he stays committed, even when things get tough. You, @Trix and others might disagree on whether this is the best approach, but I don’t think he’s refusing to change out of pride or attachment to his philosophy. It feels more like he genuinely believes pushing through will lead to success, and turning back now could make things worse in the long run. He could be completely wrong about this, but I believe that's where his motivation to persevere is coming from, rather than pure stubbornness.

Thing is though we aren't asking for wholesale changes just tweaks, I honestly believe we are talking about such small changes that it could easily just be tweaked back when the time is right. Nothing I am suggesting would need to alter his philosophy or message to the players.

 

[jakuba]

I just think it was so painfully obvious last night what we need to change to improve.

Two times our players passed the ball forward quickly without taking 5 touches to make a pass we scored.

The winner an absolute prime example, win the ball back, wingers immediately making runs, immediately play the pass forward and we score. We’ve had endless opportunities in every single game we’ve played to do that but haven’t. We do that and we will create chances and we will convert a good margin of them.

We have been so guilty of overplaying and over complicating our play for over 6 months now. I really hope last night was a wake-up call for Ange to change to that ruthless style of football rather than trying to pass the opposition to death.

 

[Trix]

I tend to agree with you mate, but to just to play devils advocate from Ange’s perspective….

I think his idea is that ultimately his only goal is to win leagues/trophies, not to win games in the short run by changing his tactics to suit short-term benefits.

He believes the best way to win leagues is to stick steadfast to his tactics so that it is completely ingrained in the squad so that when he finally has the ‘right players’ that we’re ready to go and start to dominate the league.

Whether this is the right thought process or not is the question at hand, and whether he’ll survive long enough to see the potential benefits is another.

But I can understand the thinking behind it

History says it won't. Be it the fans the players or Levy, winning games along the way is the only way to get there. Lose enough confidence from one or more of those groups and he'll be gone and that's a fact.

 

[only1waddle]

I can't remember exactly but didn't Poch imply in his book that Sissoko was Levy's signing, and Poch had little or nothing to do with it? Conte certainly implied the same about Spence.

Sissoko in particular was an expensive buy at that time.

Most likely with a favourable repayment structure, so value over better fit for the squad or a more technical player.

 

[Styopa]

Thing is though we aren't asking for wholesale changes just tweaks, I honestly believe we are talking about such small changes that it could easily just be tweaked back when the time is right. Nothing I am suggesting would need to alter his philosophy or message to the players.

I don’t think what you're suggesting is unreasonable, and maybe Ange will come to that conclusion soon. But looking at it from his perspective, his whole approach seems to be based on the idea that it takes a year or two for things to fall into place. Until then, things might look bad, but when it clicks, everything comes together. So, he’s likely thinking he just needs to stay the course, even if it means enduring some rough periods. Several journalists who have followed his career seem to share this view. I’m not saying it will necessarily work here, but I think it explains his mindset.

 

[spursgirls]

I just think it was so painfully obvious last night what we need to change to improve.

Two times our players passed the ball forward quickly without taking 5 touches to make a pass we scored.

The winner an absolute prime example, win the ball back, wingers immediately making runs, immediately play the pass forward and we score. We’ve had endless opportunities in every single game we’ve played to do that but haven’t. We do that and we will create chances and we will convert a good margin of them.

We have been so guilty of overplaying and over complicating our play for over 6 months now. I really hope last night was a wake-up call for Ange to change to that ruthless style of football rather than trying to pass the opposition to death.

I have a feeling that Ange wants them to play that quick pass forward and ruthless way, but they aren't doing it!

 

[jpascavitz]

I’m old enough and patient enough to want to stick with Ange but I’m really struggling with the lack of attempts on goal let alone shots on target. We have lots of attacking potential and loads of possession but it feels like the Conte days sometimes. There’s still too much fannying about both 18 yard boxes. Get forward quicker from our box and get shots away in their box. Seems simple enough.

I think that's been the biggest problems with me on the eye so far this season. I still believe that we will get better in the next few months however one way or another. I don't want to completely bore anyone with stats but they are in our favor:

• We are first in the league with the most passes into the box
• We are joint first in the league with city for shots on target
• We are second in the league in overall touches only behind City
• We are second in the league in touches in opposition box by team behind City
• We're tied with a bunch of other clubs with 6 goals for the season (5th in league) - this is the stat that's heavily skewed in a small sample size due to the Everton match

Now all that is moot point unless we start converting our dominance IMO.

My other random thought that came up during your point is that I wonder if there is ANY element of us keeping more "safe" possession actually Ange tweaking our tactics in order to be less open? Pep has succeeded in this way for many years with the joke always being he doesn't allow his wingers to take players on.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Agreed that some tactical tweaks are needed. Not a complete overhaul. Ange surely must now understand he doesn’t have the caliber of players to make is system work in the PL. His tweaks need to focus on varying how we attack so that we can get more shots away. I also think the primary tweaking is with how the FBs and CMs work. As their connection to our attackers is misaligned.

We are not City or Arse. We don’t have enough finesse players to amplify end product. So, needs to search for a different way to optimize the strengths of what he has and limit exposure to their weaknesses.

 

[Styopa]

You could be right but how long do we perservere with this level of performance until it all just clicks?

We’ve been floundering for the last five or six years, so I don’t think there’s much to lose by giving Ange a couple of seasons.

Especially since my expectations are low for whoever comes in next anyway. Maybe they’ll get us playing better, but Ange is our fifth coach since the Champions League final. I just don’t see the next manager being a magic fix.

 

[Dazzazzad]

I think that's been the biggest problems with me on the eye so far this season. I still believe that we will get better in the next few months however one way or another. I don't want to completely bore anyone with stats but they are in our favor:

• We are first in the league with the most passes into the box
• We are joint first in the league with city for shots on target
• We are second in the league in overall touches only behind City
• We are second in the league in touches in opposition box by team behind City
• We're tied with a bunch of other clubs with 6 goals for the season (5th in league) - this is the stat that's heavily skewed in a small sample size due to the Everton match

Now all that is moot point unless we start converting our dominance IMO.

My other random thought that came up during your point is that I wonder if there is ANY element of us keeping more "safe" possession actually Ange tweaking our tactics in order to be less open? Pep has succeeded in this way for many years with the joke always being he doesn't allow his wingers to take players on.

Thank you for saving me looking up those stats. We're not clicking but it's so far from Conte miseryball (last night excluded) that I wonder what people are watching.

 

[jakuba]

I have a feeling that Ange wants them to play that quick pass forward and ruthless way, but they aren't doing it!

My old man was saying the same but I just can’t see how that can be the case when we’ve played the complete opposite way for so long now.

Especially when he can and has set us up to play that way before, either he thinks the patterns will eventually work or it’s the only way he knows to set up.

I’m hoping it’s the former and that he can change and vary them in a way which makes it harder for teams to nullify and easier for us to play through teams.

 

[Mooger Fooger]

We’ve been floundering for the last five or six years, so I don’t think there’s much to lose by giving Ange a couple of seasons.

Especially since my expectations are low for whoever comes in next anyway. Maybe they’ll get us playing better, but Ange is our fifth coach since the Champions League final. I just don’t see the next manager being a magic fix.

I agree and I'm fine with giving him time, but it has to be coupled with seeing signs of progress. Possession and control of games has been much better, but lack of finishing/final balls and that team selection last night have set us back massively IMO. It's like nothing is being learnt from mistakes or coached in between games.

I also still can't get on board with this inverted wing back thing. It's stifling the space for our forwards IMO.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Why do people keep making excuses about the squad here? Those players are largely Ange’s now. He has approved the signings. Yeah we haven’t signed World Beaters but he is the first to say he would sooner have two from the bracket down.

The issues we have, all start with the coaching. The inverted fullbacks mean we lack width at time. The all out attack means we are easy to break against. People keep saying we play a 6 but we don’t really have a traditional DM in there, which is Ange’s choice. Our set pieces are embarrassing, which comes from the training pitch. When we shoot and how we create chances comes from how we look to play.

Stop giving him an out. He needs to get us improving in those areas. I’m fed up with excuses on those things as they have stagnated or gone backwards since last year.

He has, in theory, been backed way more than either Jose or Conte were under Levy. Look at our total spend since he’s come in, and look at the personnel we’ve shipped out. Almost an entirely new squad.

The thing that annoys me is we were told by fans or those who know his career better that he would come in, work with what he has and make us a better team. Bar those first 10 games we haven’t seen anything promising to suggest this is the case.

The narrative being spun now is that he doesn’t have the players for his system, but that wasn’t the case when we were looking to sign him. Why has it changed? He has a great squad at his disposal, but his stubborn tactics are being found out time and time again and it looks like he has no intention of tweaking or changing things.

Not that I want it to play out this way, but he’ll be gone long before he “gets the players” for his system. He needs to start coaching and adjusting his tactics too suit.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

The issue with that group is that many of them would be among the top candidates for an upgrade at the moment.

Bissouma and Maddison are inconsistent; apparently, this was a concern with Maddison at Leicester as well. Bentancur hasn’t looked the same since his injuries. Son is now over 30. And Romero might be on his way out this summer. That's not to mention all of the off-field stuff several of these lot were involved with this summer.

It’s possible that Ange isn’t getting enough from these players, but right now, they seem like a shaky foundation to build on.

I honestly feel it’s a foregone conclusion that Romero will be playing at the Bernabeu next season. He looks like he’s already mentally checked out, and we’ve heard nothing to suggest he’s keen to sign an extension. Not for this thread though so I’ll stop here.

 

[SixtyFour]

I dont think the chances we created against Newcastle and Leicester were that great but I take your point to an extent .

We did create plenty of promising situations, but our final ball, decision making was really poor. So I wouldnt say we played really well im those games....just played well to a point.

Somewhat disagree with the ‘final ball decision making’ explanation that is popping up here and there. For me it is more another side effect of our narrow attacks and our opposition being more than happy to pack the penalty area with just about everyone. In those circumstances, playing a decent final ball is nigh on impossible even if you choose correctly. See 4723 Mourinho career 1-0 victories (not with us obviously )