Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[CowInAComa]

Not sure why the laughter, aside from the Arsenal goal ( which should have been disallowed) we have been solid

Not sure i would use the term solid, but i do think noticeably better than the shitshow set piece defending of last season.

Unfortunately if and whenever we concede to a set piece (which are at the end of the day where a large proportion of all goals are scored) then the line will be trotted out every time so its a no win really

 

[rabbikeane]

I think there’s a gap between our expectations as fans and what the club’s owners are actually willing to deliver on the pitch.

Within four years of ENIC taking over, we reached 5th place, our highest finish in sixteen years. Since then, except for a few standout and unusually poor seasons, we’ve generally hovered around 5th place. Since 2001, we’ve finished 4th or higher seven times and 7th or lower eight times. On average, our league position since the 01/02 season has been about 6th.

I don't think we can complain too much about our league placements, they'd be fine/acceptable if we were picking up some domestic and UEFA cups along the way.
People who expect us to win the league are frankly unrealistic. As I've said earlier, it feels like we at least should have won 5 trophies more under current ownership.

 

[Mr Pink]

I am going to be contrarian here and say I do actually like the system on the whole.

I do think there can and should be more variation to the attacking patterns but on the whole, in theory at least, I find it quite an interesting one that I can see being very effective with the right players.

But that is the problem, we don't have the right players. We don't have a single winger capable of comfortably playing on the touchline. The FB's on the whole are probably better suited to overlapping and our midfield, whilst having improved with the introduction of two 10's, will never be able to create enough to mask our weakness out wide because so much of our game plan focuses on wing play.

I think the system on paper can work with the right personnel, I just don't think we have near enough of the right personnel. Maybe in time some of the youth will become the right profile but already for a start Odebert and Yang like to come in field and do a lot of their best work drifting central with freedom. The one big plus point they have is both are strong one on one (for their age) which is not something any of our other wing options are good at so hopefully they can, in time, adjust to the role.

So whilst on paper I quite like the concept behind his tactics I can't help but feel we will continue to hit our head against a brick wall every time we come up against a team that sits deep. Which, if they have any sense, the majority of teams will do except for the likes of City and Liverpool who have enough firepower to blow us out of the water regardless how they set up.

In reality I would actually go as far as saying there are very few teams in wold football that could make these tactics work at the highest level with the players currently at their disposal. You would really need an owner willing to spend and a scouting set up of the the highest quality in order to build a squad capable of winning the Premier League or Champions League as there is very little margin for error for the entire 90 mins across the majority of positions. Whats for sure is I don't see Levy and Lange being able to build this team.

The problem is we all know Ange is incredibly stubborn. Not only does he believe, because it has worked every single time in the past, his tactics will eventually work he also doesn't seem to take into consideration that maybe the players he has at his disposal are just not capable of adapting and delivering what he wants in the strongest league in the world. At some point as a manger I think you need to take a look at the tools you have and accept that some are just not capable of being utilised in the way you want.

Its very clear he is waiting for that collective "I get it" moment and we should all be wise enough to know that it does often take a frustratingly long time to get there. Often it can get to a point where 70% to 80% of the fan base want the manager gone. So with that in mind I do think patience is needed but at the same time I feel that "I get it" moment usually comes with some tweaking. TBF to Ange bringing Kulu into the RCM role is a change that shouldn't be overlooked. To me that is a positive sign that he is still looking to get more from our attack but we all know that it isn't enough.

I think at this point the next change to make is a far more significant one than putting Kulu in at RCM which is maybe why Ange is hesitant to contemplate it at this juncture. Essentially the obvious change now is the role of the FB and allowing one or both WF to come inside instead of being required to constantly hold the width. If Ange ever gets to the point of trying this we shall see, I imagine now he is still hoping what he has at present clicks but personally i am extremely skeptical it ever will primarily due to the players.

This isn't even me saying our players are not good enough, although with certain individuals you could certainly make that argument. I just think that too many are just not suited to the role they are currently being asked to play and I really don't see that changing any time soon.

Two things for me mate:

1) having more of the right players will surely help but its still looks extremely congested in there, and it might not have the miraculous affect we all hope for...we're up against well organised teams most weeks who's blueprint is to deny us space.

Being flexible brings unpredictableness to our play

2) until we do bring in more of the right kind of player, Ange surely needs to adapt in the interim....

Surely?....

 

[thebenjamin]

Which I think is the crux of the issue as it was with Conte, Jose and even Poch since our self imposed transfer ban. Without trying to take the thread too far off topic, in essence no manager with strong tactical ideas is ever going to get their system fully functional under Levy’s stewardship as they will never be given all the players needed to make it work. It will always be a bridge too far. I think last summers window should have made that abundantly clear to anyone still unsure.

What that means for the future I don’t really know but I don’t think it takes a genius to see the squad at present is not strong enough in key positions to get the most out of Ange’s tactics. Really if when we do get to the inevitable point of looking for another manager, and i really really hope that point is nowhere near, then Levy would really be best served with employing a highly adaptable manager who whilst sharing Ange’s overall attacking ethos is also comfortable making the most of whatever players the club decides to bring in every summer.

Is there a manager without strong tactical ideas?

 

[Lappi]

Given our injuries and struggles with attacking I really hope we try a tweaked system.

Our current fit squad would suit a classic 4-2-3-1 well.

Full backs staying wide and overlapping - all of them could do it.

Son, Kulu, probably Moore and maybe even BJ are much better out wide when they have a full back overlapping.

An extra pivot - no one is good enough to play 6 alone really, it's so demanding.

It doesn't have to mean an abandonment of our philosophy - we can still play front foot, passing out the back high press football like this. It's just being able to shift the positions to suit us and who we are playing.

At our best under Poch we had different formations we switched between between and during games. Stubbornly sticking to one strict system is not good.

 

[dontcallme]

The issue with that group is that many of them would be among the top candidates for an upgrade at the moment.

Bissouma and Maddison are inconsistent; apparently, this was a concern with Maddison at Leicester as well. Bentancur hasn’t looked the same since his injuries. Son is now over 30. And Romero might be on his way out this summer. That's not to mention all of the off-field stuff several of these lot were involved with this summer.

It’s possible that Ange isn’t getting enough from these players, but right now, they seem like a shaky foundation to build on.

Certainly question marks over each
Of them.

But at their best they’ve been excellent players.

Maybe they’re a lost cause but Ange has to get them to their level and leading if we are to be successful.

 

[Styopa]

I don't think we can complain too much about our league placements, they'd be fine/acceptable if we were picking up some domestic and UEFA cups along the way.
People who expect us to win the league are frankly unrealistic. As I've said earlier, it feels like we at least should have won 5 trophies more under current ownership.

That’s true, but I believe our focus on the league affects our cup performance, and I think that pressure comes from the owners. We could certainly have performed better in some instances, but when several coaches and multiple squads over nearly a quarter-century have struggled, it’s worth examining the common factors. The coaches and most of the players are just passing through in the wider context.

Even Poch, who was here for over five years, was given far less time than others at the club have had. Meanwhile, Ange has been here only a year, and many people are already pointing to him as the main problem right now.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

Is there a manager without strong tactical ideas?

Well there are plenty who have a base philosophy but flexible enough to try different formations and players in different positions in order to get it working.

 

[cjbyid]

Weird thing for me is how many chances we created in our first 3 games and then the past two games nada.

Until we start moving the ball quicker I see no change, we're honestly one of the slowest teams to move the ball around.

 

[Styopa]

In the past, coaches like Redknapp and Jol, who were relatively flexible and didn’t stick to a rigid "system," still encountered many of the same issues Ange is dealing with now. Redknapp’s teams, for instance, often struggled against a low block, even when he had players like Modric, Bale, and VDV.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Criticisms of Ange are fair. I've certainly got reservations.

But the squad isn't there.

The transfer window wasn't good enough.

So he's either got to rely on kids or on the same players who abominated for much of last season.

If his remit is to finish in the top 4 or 5 and/or win a trophy then Levy is in fantasy land.

Other clubs have also invested, Chelsea, Newcastle, Villa. Before it used to be 2-3 great teams then we could roll as the 4-5th, that might not be the case going forward.

 

[Mr Pink]

When Ange said there was no quick fix to this two things entered my head immediately:

1) he knows we dont have enough of the right type of players to implement his sytle more effectively

2) he's not going to change anything really even though he's aware what most opposition teams are doing to nullify us

So again, we're going to be pinning our hopes on getting the recruitment right over the next few windows...hmmm.

And of course he'll be trying to get more out of what he has in the mean time, which currently looks a real struggle.

 

[Trix]

Two things for me mate:

1) having more of the right players will surely help but its still looks extremely congested in there, and it might not have the miraculous affect we all hope for...we're up against well organised teams most week who's blueprint is to deny us space

2) until we do bring in more of the right kind of player, Ange surely needs to adapt in the interim....

Surely?....

That is all I am asking for mate. I'm more than happy for him to go back to this way of playing when he feels he has all the right components, until then just tweak it to best utilise what we have.

 

[Monkey boy]

Poch was actually quite good at being tactically fluid, changing his formation to suit the players he had.

In his second system he put Dier in midfield and had that 4-2-3-1 system, which switched to a back three with Dier slotting back and our full backs pushing up.

In his third season when we finished second he also switched things around when we werent playing as well to a 3-4-3 and we absolutely spanked teams.

He also infamously tried that diamond, which actually did scrape us to fourth in his last full season - he was working miracles with the resources he had to hand.

He also did this at Chelsea, it just took him a while to figure out his best team but end of last season they clicked.

The only problem we had with Poch is we had that period where our recruitment was absolutely atrocious and he was declining players, but has been shown with Chelsea he will work with what you bring in if you utilise him as a head coach rather than a manager.

Still dont believe or understand why we turned him down in favour of Ange, will be a decision that sets us back years. The guy had already shown and proved that he can carry out a successful rebuild and loves working with young and hungry players and he also loves the club dearly. Nobody can sit there with a straight face and tell me that Ange was a better choice than Poch.

 

[Mr Pink]

That is all I am asking for mate. I'm more than happy for him to go back to this way of playing when he feels he has all the right components, until then just tweak it to best utilise what we have.

Its the sensible thing to do and would probably allievate a lot of pressure.

Nobody is going to think any less of Ange, to the contrary - its shows an ability to adapt when the circumstances warrant it.

 

[Trix]

This is actually pretty interesting...

Should get my lad signed up with them ;-)

I'll be honest mate, they are good as gold to the players and it why they have such a large number of players on their books(improving every year). I know you are joking but if you were looking to get your son representation he could do far worse.

 

[Trix]

Its the sensible thing to do and would probably allievate a lot of pressure.

Nobody is going to think any less of Ange, to the contrary - its shows an ability to adapt when the circumstances warrant it.

Thing is mate some of the changes I believe are required would probably go unnoticed by the majority of watching fans and even pundits as we'd still dominate possession. It wouldn't be until someone on Youtube pointed it out with a CBBC voiceover and crayon drawings they'd even know what the difference was.

 

[$hoguN]

Given our injuries and struggles with attacking I really hope we try a tweaked system.

Our current fit squad would suit a classic 4-2-3-1 well.

Full backs staying wide and overlapping - all of them could do it.

Son, Kulu, probably Moore and maybe even BJ are much better out wide when they have a full back overlapping.

An extra pivot - no one is good enough to play 6 alone really, it's so demanding.

It doesn't have to mean an abandonment of our philosophy - we can still play front foot, passing out the back high press football like this. It's just being able to shift the positions to suit us and who we are playing.

At our best under Poch we had different formations we switched between between and during games. Stubbornly sticking to one strict system is not good.

The issue is that Ange has shown zero sign of being willing to try something different.

For a while now this has just been miseryball part 2. Only difference is Ange isnt a **** like Conte

 

[Ghost Hardware]

Two things for me mate:

1) having more of the right players will surely help but its still looks extremely congested in there, and it might not have the miraculous affect we all hope for...we're up against well organised teams most weeks who's blueprint is to deny us space.

Being flexible brings unpredictableness to our play

2) until we do bring in more of the right kind of player, Ange surely needs to adapt in the interim....

Surely?....

In regards to 1 you’re right it is very congested but that is because we don't have any players who are capable of creating space. The reality is none of our players are good 1 v 1 so that means the opposition can pretty much pack the box and man mark the wingers. They don't need to double up on anyone. The minute you put a few players in our system capable of beating a man the opposition will have to start doubling up on them and that in tern will create space elsewhere. Its fairly standard for teams that play high line/high possesion football. You need techincaly adept players that can cause the opposition team concern. we don't have anyone that can do that. I garuntee you if you put (just picking random names here) Kvaratskhelia and Dembélê on the wings there would suddenly be a lot more space in the centre of the pitch for our FB and AM's to exploit as the opposition defence will become stretched. We don't have anyone even remotely capable of stretching a defence which means it is very easy to nullify our current system. Essentially its easy to fill the box and wait for an aimless cross to be floated in.

We need shorter, sharper passing and players with high technical ability capable of retaining possession under pressure and beating a man. If we fill our attack with players like that I would be very surprised if the space we are desperately seeking didn’t suddenly became abundant, at least in comparison to what we face now. Everything is far too slow and pedestrian at present.

I agree about flexibility. It’s what impressed me about Slot. When we were looking at him he was very similar to Ange regarding recycling to the wings. Last season however he completely changed to a far more fluid system that didn’t focus in any one attacking pattern. Sometimes he’d have the players stay narrow and others he’d spread the play wide. It’s that sort of unpredictability that you need in the PL and I agree with you here completely.

As for 2 I agree but we know how stubborn Ange is so I won’t be holding my breath.

 

[Styopa]

Its the sensible thing to do and would probably allievate a lot of pressure.

Nobody is going to think any less of Ange, to the contrary - its shows an ability to adapt when the circumstances warrant it.

I don’t think it’s just stubbornness, though. Reading between the lines, it seems like Ange has complete faith in his system and believes it will succeed if he stays committed, even when things get tough. You, @Trix and others might disagree on whether this is the best approach, but I don’t think he’s refusing to change out of pride or attachment to his philosophy. It feels more like he genuinely believes pushing through will lead to success, and turning back now could make things worse in the long run. He could be completely wrong about this, but I believe that's where his motivation to persevere is coming from, rather than pure stubbornness.